LeBron James...PROOF that Loyalty DOESN'T MATTER...

[Ferretsquig]

I don't know, I haven't committed it to memory, I have just seem him fail in big spots over and over again and I was rooting FOR him. I wanted to see him win in Cleveland.

So I'm assuming you worship the idol of Kobe, the greatest finisher. Do you think Kobe hits more clutch shots in the playoffs?

 

[nyjunc]

So I'm assuming you worship the idol of Kobe, the greatest finisher. Do you think Kobe hits more clutch shots in the playoffs?

This isn't about Kobe, I am not a Kobe fan. I actually grew up a laker fan and was a fan through the 2000 championship team but b/c of Kobe(and how boring the NBA is) I stopped liking the Lakers so it's not about lebron vs. Kobe. I have always liked Lebron and rooted for him, I had a million debates about lebron vs. Carmelo when they entered the '03 draft. I was sold on Lebron from the day I saw him play on espn in high school. As a basketball fan I'm disappointed he couldn't will Cleveland to a championship. He took the ARod way out, hopefully he has to wait as long as ARod did to win a title but I don't think it will take him 6 seasons to win in Miami.

 

[jree]

Please don't compare Lebron to Michael. Michael was competing w/ the big boys from day 1. It took a few years to break through but he was competing against MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better teams earlier in his career and he didn't have too much help. last I checked Michael didn't aske to leave Chicago or go join Magic in LA or go join other star players. This is why lebron is hated now- he took the gutless way out. He wants to be handed a championship rather than fighting through and carrying a team.

Don't make it out to be that I am taking anything away from Jordan or comparing him to Lebron, I'm simply stating that even at his highest level of points scoring and shots taken, Jordan couldn't have beaten those elite teams without getting help from his role players. He put up ridiculous numbers against the Celtics and a declining Larry Bird and still got swept. He got destroyed year after year by the Pistons until Scottie Pippen started to develope even more. I still find it hard to believe that you would take credit away from Scottie being probably the best SF to play the game. You give too much credit to Jordan and not enough to his teammates. I think Steve Kerr still holds the record for best 3 pt percentage.

 

[nyjunc]

Don't make it out to be that I am taking anything away from Jordan or comparing him to Lebron, I'm simply stating that even at his highest level of points scoring and shots taken, Jordan couldn't have beaten those elite teams without getting help from his role players. He put up ridiculous numbers against the Celtics and a declining Larry Bird and still got swept. He got destroyed year after year by the Pistons until Scottie Pippen started to develope even more. I still find it hard to believe that you would take credit away from Scottie being probably the best SF to play the game. You give too much credit to Jordan and not enough to his teammates. I think Steve Kerr still holds the record for best 3 pt percentage.

Declining Larry Bird? It was 1986 and Bird was at his peak.

The Pistons were a better team than the Celts or Magic from the past few years.

Steve Kerr was a great shooter and made even greater when he gets open looks from teams worrying about Jordan. Pippen was really good but I think he gets overrated b/c of what Jordan was able to do w/ those teams. he was on very talented teams after he left Chicago and never even made a Finals app.

 

[Ferretsquig]

This isn't about Kobe, I am not a Kobe fan. I actually grew up a laker fan and was a fan through the 2000 championship team but b/c of Kobe(and how boring the NBA is) I stopped liking the Lakers so it's not about lebron vs. Kobe. I have always liked Lebron and rooted for him, I had a million debates about lebron vs. Carmelo when they entered the '03 draft. I was sold on Lebron from the day I saw him play on espn in high school. As a basketball fan I'm disappointed he couldn't will Cleveland to a championship. He took the ARod way out, hopefully he has to wait as long as ARod did to win a title but I don't think it will take him 6 seasons to win in Miami.

That's just fantastic, but unfortunately bad character development for message board characters is not my idea of entertainment. I really don't care.

I'm just curious who you think is better than Lebron in these clutch situations in the playoffs. Because I sit here looking at the numbers and nobody is close. Granted I don't have the figures from the 80s and maybe Bird was better.

 

[nyjunc]

That's just fantastic, but unfortunately bad character development for message board characters is not my idea of entertainment. I really don't care.

I'm just curious who you think is better than Lebron in these clutch situations in the playoffs. Because I sit here looking at the numbers and nobody is close. Granted I don't have the figures from the 80s and maybe Bird was better.

You do know that #s tell part of the story, right? use the eye test more than #s that can be skewed. There's not a coach or GM on the planet that would rather have lebron w/ the ball in his hands late than Kobe.

 

[jree]

Declining Larry Bird? It was 1986 and Bird was at his peak.

The Pistons were a better team than the Celts or Magic from the past few years.

Steve Kerr was a great shooter and made even greater when he gets open looks from teams worrying about Jordan. Pippen was really good but I think he gets overrated b/c of what Jordan was able to do w/ those teams. he was on very talented teams after he left Chicago and never even made a Finals app.

Sorry, declining wasn't meant for when Jordan was swept, It was meant for when Jordan went on the 3 peat run. I apologize. It really was an honest mistake. On a side note, I still have my Bird vs Jordan video game.

Anyways, thats my point about the Pistons vs. Jordan or Jordan vs. anybody. Jordan couldn't do it alone. Jordans' Bulls didn't start becoming the dominant team that they were untill the top 3 teams started their decline.

Steve Kerr could hit those open shots which made him an even more valuble asset. Absolutley none of those PG's in Cleveland could do anything that Kerr did. The same could be said about Jordan not making a Finals appearance without Pippen, unless theres a finals appearance that I don't remeber cause my memory is a little fuzzy.

Those teams that Pippen were on aren't fair to hold how the measuring stick of how great of a player he really was. He wasn't a Rocket long enough to build any type of chemistry and by the time he joined the Trailblazers he had to fight his way against the Shaq and Kobe led Lakers which is arguably one of the greatest teams to be assembled.

Anyway you cut it, Jordan had two teammates who were either a key piece of another teams NBA championships or picked to build another team around. You can't say that about one player that ever played with LBJ, except maybe a fat, old, space hog Shaq.

 

[nyjunc]

Sorry, declining wasn't meant for when Jordan was swept, It was meant for when Jordan went on the 3 peat run. I apologize. It really was an honest mistake. On a side note, I still have my Bird vs Jordan video game.

Anyways, thats my point about the Pistons vs. Jordan or Jordan vs. anybody. Jordan couldn't do it alone. Jordans' Bulls didn't start becoming the dominant team that they were untill the top 3 teams started their decline.

Steve Kerr could hit those open shots which made him an even more valuble asset. Absolutley none of those PG's in Cleveland could do anything that Kerr did. The same could be said about Jordan not making a Finals appearance without Pippen, unless theres a finals appearance that I don't remeber cause my memory is a little fuzzy.

Those teams that Pippen were on aren't fair to hold how the measuring stick of how great of a player he really was. He wasn't a Rocket long enough to build any type of chemistry and by the time he joined the Trailblazers he had to fight his way against the Shaq and Kobe led Lakers which is arguably one of the greatest teams to be assembled.

Anyway you cut it, Jordan had two teammates who were either a key piece of another teams NBA championships or picked to build another team around. You can't say that about one player that ever played with LBJ, except maybe a fat, old, space hog Shaq.

Wasn't it Bird vs. Dr. J? That was a great game:D

No player can do it alone, he needs some help. Do you think orlando had much more talent than Cle around Howard 2 years ago when they beat Cleveland? He had the opportunity to at least make more finals the last couple of years and his struggles were a main reason why they didn't.

Shaq and kobe weren't yet winners when that very talented Blazer team took them to game 7. They hand't won anything yet and had struggled for years in the playoffs. I think that Blazer team in 2000 was better and they had that huge lead on them late in game 7 and blew it. That wouldn't have happened if Jordan was leading that team.

 

[jree]

You do know that #s tell part of the story, right? use the eye test more than #s that can be skewed. There's not a coach or GM on the planet that would rather have lebron w/ the ball in his hands late than Kobe.

And yet there isn't a coach in the league that would choose to build thier franchise around Kobe over Lebron. You put Lebron in a Lakers uniform and he's working on a 3 peat today. Lebrons shot isn't as refined as Kobes today. Kobe had to work on that b/c he couldn't get to the basket like he used to be able to. Lebron is still working on it. I love how Phil Jackson is the coach and even he sees that Kobe is shooting too much

 

[nyjunc]

And yet there isn't a coach in the league that would choose to build thier franchise around Kobe over Lebron. You put Lebron in a Lakers uniform and he's working on a 3 peat today. Lebrons shot isn't as refined as Kobes today. Kobe had to work on that b/c he couldn't get to the basket like he used to be able to. Lebron is still working on it. I love how Phil Jackson is the coach and even he sees that Kobe is shooting too much

I disagree, I think any GM would like either guy and could build around either.

 

[jree]

Wasn't it Bird vs. Dr. J? That was a great game:D

No player can do it alone, he needs some help. Do you think orlando had much more talent than Cle around Howard 2 years ago when they beat Cleveland? He had the opportunity to at least make more finals the last couple of years and his struggles were a main reason why they didn't.

Shaq and kobe weren't yet winners when that very talented Blazer team took them to game 7. They hand't won anything yet and had struggled for years in the playoffs. I think that Blazer team in 2000 was better and they had that huge lead on them late in game 7 and blew it. That wouldn't have happened if Jordan was leading that team.

Even with how great of a shooter Bird was in real life, you couldn't hit any of the shots or drive against Jordan, but when you played Jordan he could drive passed Bird all day long. It was such a poor game but I think every kid had it back then.

I definitley think that Orlando team had more talent than the one that surrounded James that year. James put up 49 points and still lost game one and like I said in my previous post, if he doesn't pull that buzzer beater at the end of game 2 they would be in a 0-2 hole. As far as him not having a lot of Finals appearances, every year that he got booted from the post season was by a team that eventually went to the Finals or won it. Detroit, Orlando, Boston. Look at the individual matchups that Cleveland had to face against all those teams, especially the Celts.

Shaq and Kobe weren't winners yet but they were on the rise. All teams in the west were outcoached and out played by the Lakers after Phil took over. This isn't a debate on whether Pippen was better than Jordan. Its a debate on wheter the supporting cast around LBJ was remotely as talented as the ones that were surrounding Jordan. The answer is absolutley not. Name one player on any of the recent Cavs teams that you could use as the centerpiece like what the Trail Blazers did for Pippen.

 

[jree]

I disagree, I think any GM would like either guy and could build around either.

Yeah, I definitley agree. It just made for more friendly banter.

I know I'm going to get killed for this from many Heat fans and Lebron supporters but LBJ is hardly my 3rd favorite player today. Wade is #1, Kobe is 2nd, and its a tie between Howard and Lebron. I guess my hatred for Shaq fuels my passion to see Kobe succeed. I couldn't stand rooting for Miami when Shaq played here and was happier when he left than when they won the Finals.

 

[Ferretsquig]

You do know that #s tell part of the story, right? use the eye test more than #s that can be skewed. There's not a coach or GM on the planet that would rather have lebron w/ the ball in his hands late than Kobe.

What you eventually come to realize is that the eye test can become more skewed that the numbers. Its just human nature. And that's why most every NBA coaching staff now includes people who will analyze the stats. Because they realize that even while watching every minute of every game multiple times they still can miss the overall picture.

 

[JCane]

Did Magic force his way to LA? was LA winning titles before he got there? Their last title was 1972.

Bird was DRAFTED by Boston just like Magic by the Lakers and Boston won 29 games the year before Larry and 61 the year after.

The Bulls were a terrible franchise when Jordan made them relevant and again they drafted him. before Jordan the Bulls made one playoff app int he previous 7 years. They would never miss agai until the year after he retired.

The Cavs were like the Bulls except they were not too far removed from having one of the best franchises in the NBA. They never broke through for a title(mostly thanks to Jordan and co.) but they had EC contenders nearly every year from the late 80s to the late 90s.

Jordan would not have left Cleveland, he would have willed that franchise to championships. Lebron wants 6 titles w/o the hard work Jordan put in to get his franchise over the top and win their first ever title. Much like the Cavs w/ Lebron the Bulls had never won a title or even been to the Finals before Michael.

You're missing the point. Magic and Bird were drafted by these historic franchises known for winning. I'm not saying that Magic and Bird weren't great because they were, but they were with teams that were great for years after they got there because GREAT OWNERSHIP put winners around them.

Chicago did the say with Jordan. Great ownership in Chicago built a winner.

That's what the great franchises do.

Cleveland is not a great franchise. They've always had poor ownership and Dan Gilbert is one of the worst. Cleveland drafted LeBron and told him to do it alone. LeBron didn't just up and leave. He played out two contracts. He gave Cleveland and Gilbert chances to put guys around him and they didn't. And he wasn't going to. LeBron could have stuck around in Cleveland and had to face teams like Boston and Orlando who was busy building real contenders. LeBron wasn't being fair to himself by sticking around.

You'd leave your employer if you were the one pulling all the weight and getting **** on when it mattered. Of a better offer came along where you didn't have to pull all the weight in your line of work and actually be rewarded for it, you'd leave too.

Not to mention, Boston, Los Angeles, and Chicago had GREAT coaches when Bird, Magic and Jordan was in town.

And believe me, Jordan would have left Cleveland. Just because he stuck around in Chicago doesn't mean he does the same with Brad Daugherty and lousy Craig Ehlo.

You sure don't have a problem with Jason Taylor leaving Miami seeking a title now do you?

 

[Ricky_Fan34]

lol at junc saying in July that Cleveland was a playoff team