Merged: Ask Boomer (No B.S. Wanted)

[StLouisFinFan]

It's a test of functional intelligence. I've taken it before. A common misconception is that the test is somehow specialized in some way toward football or something else. It is not. I compare it to the SAT. It is a very standardized, pocket-sized test used to basically break down everyone in the world into a 1 through 50 intelligence score...to put it bluntly. The NFL adopted it because the entire major corporate world had adopted it as well as a means of testing the intelligence of potential new employees. This is how I ended up taking it a couple years back.

Going with the SAT comparison, scoring a 6 is like getting a 500 on the SAT...where you get 400 just for spelling your name right.

I didn't mean to infer football as the "area", rather intelligence in general. Wasn't clear.

 

[ckparrothead]

Up until the wonderlic disaster I still liked Vince Young as an NFL prospect. The people that argue with us are the people that want to have their cake and eat it to, not only does Vince Young have a good chance of being a quality NFL QB, but he's also got to be a high draft choice as well. Sometimes things don't work out that way just because a few pundits said so after the Rose Bowl.

I thought Vince had a decent shot of becoming a good pro...but he absolutely will not succeed if he can't grasp an NFL offense. My discomfort with him as an NFL QB stems pretty much from that and that alone. Ever since the Rose Bowl it has been one bad decision after another for Vince, decisions that were not well thought out in general. We've always heard that Mack Brown CHANGED the offense at Texas but nobody ever labeled it a "dumbing down" until we realized that's exactly what it was, in light of his awful wonderlic disaster.

Yes, Dan Marino also scored low...but not THAT low. And, as Boomer says he never had to have an offense simplified for him to understand it.

I'm about 99% sure I know what happened with Vince and the wonderlic. The bottom line is he scored what he scored, and everyone got the results of those scores even though it was a clear breach of confidentiality. Mack Brown made some phone calls, flipped his lid about the breach in confidentiality, and good buddy of his Charlie Casserly, who holds a lot of weight in the NFL, helped convince Combine officials to sweep the score under the rug with the vague "incorrectly graded" excuse as a way of making up for the clear breach in player confidentiality (which could have gotten them sued). If you don't think things like that happen all the time in both the NFL and the corporate world, you're a bit naive, as I've witnessed firsthand plenty of examples like this. If it was incorrectly graded, re-grade it! Produce the document. Instead, they just administer the test to Vince again, and I wouldn't be surprised if they either did not release the results of the first test to teams or they fudged the score on it.

Needless to say a score of 16 on the re-take (if true) combined with the fiasco surrounding the first score puts a lot of things in perspective as far as what happened to the Texas playbook, and what kinds of decisions Vince has made since the Rose Bowl...as well as what kinds of things Vince has been caught saying.

I don't think there are many teams out there right now buying that Vince is blameless in that whole wonderlic disaster. I think they'll talk a good game because everyone wants to be PC and it's viewed as mean to pick on a guy because he's dumb, but when Denny Green sings Vince Young's praises...is he saying he'll pick him? No. He won't. When he doesn't, he'll say it is because they have a QB situation they are comfortable with and they needed whatever position he takes...but in the end the very same guys that are singing his praises and explaining away his wonderlic will be passing on him on draft day...all for "other" reasons.

 

[sphincter]

Hey Boomer! I just want to say thanks for your reports here in the jungle!

Go phins!

I second that. I lurk on this board and don't post often, but I love the info I get from Boomer CK. Rock on guys. Da Sphinky

 

[2xBlown]

I'm not sure if you guys discussed him yet, but I searched the thread and could not find it.

Ingle Martin... assuming that we sign Brees in FA, we have Cleo under contract who the coaches are apparently high on, Martin would seem like a possibility for 3rd string or maybe even practice squad in order to round out our QB corps for very low money in the 7th.

What do you guys think? He threw VERY well at the combine, better than Cutler I thought. Great arm strength (read somwehere he threw faster than Cutler) and I didn't see him miss on a single pass. I've never seen him play in a game situation though so don't really know what to think other than good raw skills.

 

[Mr772]

I know for sure that Young will be better than Vick, come on Young is a league above Vick as a passer and they are both just as lethal as scramblers. Young dominated college at a level far above what Vick did. Vick was never the nations best QB and was never up for the Heisman. Vick is very overrated in the NFL. Young will surprise doubters BTW he got a 16 on the wonderlic test, the 6 mentioned was false info...

have you talked about Ko Simpson yet? he would be a 1st rounder I think and Miami should have strong interest in him, he is a playmaker. his only knock is inexperience

Man your love obsession with Vince Young reminds me of Mike D's infatuation with Ricky Williams.

 

[PhinBeck]

Up until the wonderlic disaster I still liked Vince Young as an NFL prospect. The people that argue with us are the people that want to have their cake and eat it to, not only does Vince Young have a good chance of being a quality NFL QB, but he's also got to be a high draft choice as well. Sometimes things don't work out that way just because a few pundits said so after the Rose Bowl.

I thought Vince had a decent shot of becoming a good pro...but he absolutely will not succeed if he can't grasp an NFL offense. My discomfort with him as an NFL QB stems pretty much from that and that alone. Ever since the Rose Bowl it has been one bad decision after another for Vince, decisions that were not well thought out in general. We've always heard that Mack Brown CHANGED the offense at Texas but nobody ever labeled it a "dumbing down" until we realized that's exactly what it was, in light of his awful wonderlic disaster.

Yes, Dan Marino also scored low...but not THAT low. And, as Boomer says he never had to have an offense simplified for him to understand it.

I'm about 99% sure I know what happened with Vince and the wonderlic. The bottom line is he scored what he scored, and everyone got the results of those scores even though it was a clear breach of confidentiality. Mack Brown made some phone calls, flipped his lid about the breach in confidentiality, and good buddy of his Charlie Casserly, who holds a lot of weight in the NFL, helped convince Combine officials to sweep the score under the rug with the vague "incorrectly graded" excuse as a way of making up for the clear breach in player confidentiality (which could have gotten them sued). If you don't think things like that happen all the time in both the NFL and the corporate world, you're a bit naive, as I've witnessed firsthand plenty of examples like this. If it was incorrectly graded, re-grade it! Produce the document. Instead, they just administer the test to Vince again, and I wouldn't be surprised if they either did not release the results of the first test to teams or they fudged the score on it.

Needless to say a score of 16 on the re-take (if true) combined with the fiasco surrounding the first score puts a lot of things in perspective as far as what happened to the Texas playbook, and what kinds of decisions Vince has made since the Rose Bowl...as well as what kinds of things Vince has been caught saying.

I don't think there are many teams out there right now buying that Vince is blameless in that whole wonderlic disaster. I think they'll talk a good game because everyone wants to be PC and it's viewed as mean to pick on a guy because he's dumb, but when Denny Green sings Vince Young's praises...is he saying he'll pick him? No. He won't. When he doesn't, he'll say it is because they have a QB situation they are comfortable with and they needed whatever position he takes...but in the end the very same guys that are singing his praises and explaining away his wonderlic will be passing on him on draft day...all for "other" reasons.

You hit the nail on the head CK, I looked at his arm, his production and his athleticism and thought with a year of seasoning and turoring he would be a better Michael Vick, not quite as good running as vick but close but a better passer. now with some things he has said since the end of the season and the wonderlic, i am wondering. Mental abilities are every bit as important as physical skills at qb and you have to wonder just how mentally capable Young is. a statement like why anyone would change his shotgun and sidearm makes me wary as well, does HE not think he can perform in a typical pro style offense?

 

[blackthought]

Hey Boomer, hey CK. Why, tell me why, should the Dolphins even be considering Drew Brees? The guy had an average arm before, as evidenced by Chad Pennington, injury your shoulder once, you may very well injury it again. Convince me, convince me. You say VY would go to Dallas if he fell, by all accounts Denny Green seems like a penny pincher (won't pay for a big name, big pay RB) What makes VY a non option for the Cardinals (a player with that much talent comes cheap in the draft) or for even that matter the Dolphins? (give me reasons aside from the score, like scheme or style) Danny had a 14 and Ryan Leaf had a 27, so the score argubably is unreliable.

 

[LOCAL SCUM!]

Dallas at 18 maybe. I will be AMAZED if he goes in the top 15. I mean he could fall a long way.

VINCE YOUNG falling to 18??! Did I miss something? If he's there, WE GOTTA GRAB HIM! RIGHT??

 

[blackthought]

CK, Boomer. Surfing the web alot of analyst think that their is greater value in this draft in round two than their is in one. With that being said what's your view on that, include some players that are legit #1's that will fall to #2's just because of team need and talent at that position.

I feel with the Dolphins success last year, bringing in a high number of qualty players would be best for this aging defense to ultimately set it up for future success. What scenario would have to unfold for the Dolphins to maybe trade down (maybe multiple times) to get more picks and maybe out of the first round all together.

Why is Rod Wright's name being mentioned in the first round and why is Gabe Watson's being mention in the 2nd? And how much of infatuation do the Dolphins have with Watson and Cromartie?

 

[Motion]

VINCE YOUNG falling to 18??! Did I miss something? If he's there, WE GOTTA GRAB HIM! RIGHT??

All depends who you ask.

 

[Motion]

Why is Rod Wright's name being mentioned in the first round and why is Gabe Watson's being mention in the 2nd?

I think you have that backwards.

 

[ckparrothead]

Hey Boomer, hey CK. Why, tell me why, should the Dolphins even be considering Drew Brees? The guy had an average arm before, as evidenced by Chad Pennington, injury your shoulder once, you may very well injury it again. Convince me, convince me. You say VY would go to Dallas if he fell, by all accounts Denny Green seems like a penny pincher (won't pay for a big name, big pay RB) What makes VY a non option for the Cardinals (a player with that much talent comes cheap in the draft) or for even that matter the Dolphins? (give me reasons aside from the score, like scheme or style) Danny had a 14 and Ryan Leaf had a 27, so the score argubably is unreliable.

That's a whole lot of questions and I'm sure they are loaded questions too but I'll take a crack anyway.

Drew Brees HAD a subpar arm. Then he showed up to camp in 2004 having improved his ball velocity by 20%, consistently. He improved his distance throws and his velocity. How? He simply got in better shape, and broke down his throwing motion. Now I will sit here right now and swear to you he has an arm that is comparable to those of Trent Green, Rex Grossman, and Tom Brady. That probably ranks his arm somewhere between 25 and 30 among the 35 or 36 starters/pseudo-starters in the league. That isn't bad. It's definitely workable. Would an armstrength whore like Scott Linehan accept that? No, but Mike Mularkey and Nick Saban would.

The shoulder injury is concerning, but it is good to note that it is NOT the torn rotator cuff that has severely affected guys like Pennington and Griese over the years. It was a torn labrum. Those happen, and the prognosis is generally much better for torn labrums than torn rotator cuffs. For one thing, to my knowledge you aren't as likely to suffer another torn labrum as you are to have further rotator cuff problems. Is it concerning? Absolutely. But it isn't a dealbreaker in any way.

As for Denny Green, he runs an offense that simply is not compatible with Vince Young's talents. They've spent a lot of resources upgrading that WR unit (1st rounders on Larry Fitz and Bryant Johnson, 2nd rounder on Boldin). Put simply, Vince Young doesn't fit as Denny's kind of QB. He's cool with a guy who can run, but he wants guys who have stellar passing ability and can maximize on his ultra talented receivers. Vince Young, not unlike Mike Vick, is a WR minimizer. First off he's not a good vertical passer and Green likes to have a QB with a gun and nice touch that can hit receivers vertically. Also, Vince's runs take away from his passes, which for Arizona would be kind of like trying to feed the entire Brady Bunch out of one bowl of cereal. Denny recently said he won't spend big money on a FA runner. What does that mean to you? To me it means he's staring at LenDale White and saying he's as good as ours...and if the Packers take him first? Then DeAngelo Williams is theirs. And if not, he desperately needs line help and well I'll be there's Winston Justice sitting right there, troubled black youth with all the potential in the world that he is, perfect for Denny Green. Green won't pick Young. I'd stake a lot of money on it. I bet he would take Brodie Croyle though...or Reggie McNeal...even Omar Jacobs. I'd be willing to bet a lot that Omar Jacobs is Denny Green's guy, actually.

The Dolphins wouldn't take Young because Nick won't take on an idiot at QB, plain and simple. You have to be smart enough to understand the scheme. If Scott Linehan were here things would be different, but when Scott left the emphasis got placed on the Tom Bradys of the NFL, not the Daunte Culpeppers.

Danny had a low wonderlic, but not as low as the 6 that I am quite positive Vince scored on his first test. Also, Danny NEVER had to have an offense dumbed down to him. Is the wonderlic an absolute determinant of intelligence? No. Frank Gore scored a 6 but he actually has a documented learning disability and he's far smarter than his testing indicates. Danny Marino, for whatever reason, scored low but came across high in intelligence in interviews and certainly in his understanding of the offense and the things going on with the football field. Vince Young's score is low, so that means you search for OTHER cues to give that score legitimacy, or illegitimacy. What are the other cues, though? Poor decision after poor decision since the Rose Bowl? Deciding not to show at a scheduled meeting with endorsement companies? Deciding not to show at a hodge podge owners party where he would have had the opportunity to put on his sunday best and schmooze with potential employers? Hiring a backwater agent with no experience preparing players for the draft? Spouting off at the mouth about how scouts don't need to see him run because they know what he can do running, but saying he'll throw at the combine only to later reneg on that statement? Or how about not even bothering to hire a position specialist to coach him up until a week before the Combine, when it was too late already?

So basically, you're staring at a poor wonderlic showing and saying ok, we need to take OTHER cues from this guy's life to see if we think he has the intelligence to run a complex NFL offense, to break down complex NFL defenses, handle himself as a professional, lead men, etc. I'm afraid the other cues have just not spoken highly of him at all...and the worst cue of all is the fact that Mack Brown had to dumb down the offense and simplify it to maximize Vince Young's talents. I love when he tried to say in interview that the Longhorns ran a pro style offense. A shotgun offense that revolves around the zone-read? I can't think of a more non-pro offense.

There are things that separate Vince from previous examples of a guy showing poorly on the wonderlic, especially Dan Marino.

 

[blackthought]

That's a whole lot of questions and I'm sure they are loaded questions too but I'll take a crack anyway.

Drew Brees HAD a subpar arm. Then he showed up to camp in 2004 having improved his ball velocity by 20%, consistently. He improved his distance throws and his velocity. How? He simply got in better shape, and broke down his throwing motion. Now I will sit here right now and swear to you he has an arm that is comparable to those of Trent Green, Rex Grossman, and Tom Brady. That probably ranks his arm somewhere between 25 and 30 among the 35 or 36 starters/pseudo-starters in the league. That isn't bad. It's definitely workable. Would an armstrength whore like Scott Linehan accept that? No, but Mike Mularkey and Nick Saban would.

The shoulder injury is concerning, but it is good to note that it is NOT the torn rotator cuff that has severely affected guys like Pennington and Griese over the years. It was a torn labrum. Those happen, and the prognosis is generally much better for torn labrums than torn rotator cuffs. For one thing, to my knowledge you aren't as likely to suffer another torn labrum as you are to have further rotator cuff problems. Is it concerning? Absolutely. But it isn't a dealbreaker in any way.

As for Denny Green, he runs an offense that simply is not compatible with Vince Young's talents. They've spent a lot of resources upgrading that WR unit (1st rounders on Larry Fitz and Bryant Johnson, 2nd rounder on Boldin). Put simply, Vince Young doesn't fit as Denny's kind of QB. He's cool with a guy who can run, but he wants guys who have stellar passing ability and can maximize on his ultra talented receivers. Vince Young, not unlike Mike Vick, is a WR minimizer. First off he's not a good vertical passer and Green likes to have a QB with a gun and nice touch that can hit receivers vertically. Also, Vince's runs take away from his passes, which for Arizona would be kind of like trying to feed the entire Brady Bunch out of one bowl of cereal. Denny recently said he won't spend big money on a FA runner. What does that mean to you? To me it means he's staring at LenDale White and saying he's as good as ours...and if the Packers take him first? Then DeAngelo Williams is theirs. And if not, he desperately needs line help and well I'll be there's Winston Justice sitting right there, troubled black youth with all the potential in the world that he is, perfect for Denny Green. Green won't pick Young. I'd stake a lot of money on it. I bet he would take Brodie Croyle though...or Reggie McNeal...even Omar Jacobs. I'd be willing to bet a lot that Omar Jacobs is Denny Green's guy, actually.

The Dolphins wouldn't take Young because Nick won't take on an idiot at QB, plain and simple. You have to be smart enough to understand the scheme. If Scott Linehan were here things would be different, but when Scott left the emphasis got placed on the Tom Bradys of the NFL, not the Daunte Culpeppers.

Danny had a low wonderlic, but not as low as the 6 that I am quite positive Vince scored on his first test. Also, Danny NEVER had to have an offense dumbed down to him. Is the wonderlic an absolute determinant of intelligence? No. Frank Gore scored a 6 but he actually has a documented learning disability and he's far smarter than his testing indicates. Danny Marino, for whatever reason, scored low but came across high in intelligence in interviews and certainly in his understanding of the offense and the things going on with the football field. Vince Young's score is low, so that means you search for OTHER cues to give that score legitimacy, or illegitimacy. What are the other cues, though? Poor decision after poor decision since the Rose Bowl? Deciding not to show at a scheduled meeting with endorsement companies? Deciding not to show at a hodge podge owners party where he would have had the opportunity to put on his sunday best and schmooze with potential employers? Hiring a backwater agent with no experience preparing players for the draft? Spouting off at the mouth about how scouts don't need to see him run because they know what he can do running, but saying he'll throw at the combine only to later reneg on that statement? Or how about not even bothering to hire a position specialist to coach him up until a week before the Combine, when it was too late already?

So basically, you're staring at a poor wonderlic showing and saying ok, we need to take OTHER cues from this guy's life to see if we think he has the intelligence to run a complex NFL offense, to break down complex NFL defenses, handle himself as a professional, lead men, etc. I'm afraid the other cues have just not spoken highly of him at all...and the worst cue of all is the fact that Mack Brown had to dumb down the offense and simplify it to maximize Vince Young's talents. I love when he tried to say in interview that the Longhorns ran a pro style offense. A shotgun offense that revolves around the zone-read? I can't think of a more non-pro offense.

There are things that separate Vince from previous examples of a guy showing poorly on the wonderlic, especially Dan Marino.

I appreciate the insight, I guess Vince has alot to clean up. But I'm still leary about Brees.

 

[blackthought]

I think you have that backwards.

Nooooo actually it's not, ha, ha. But yeah, this is the link http://nfl.com/draft/story/9272044 check it out, its some good info.

 

[ckparrothead]

CK, Boomer. Surfing the web alot of analyst think that their is greater value in this draft in round two than their is in one. With that being said what's your view on that, include some players that are legit #1's that will fall to #2's just because of team need and talent at that position.

I feel with the Dolphins success last year, bringing in a high number of qualty players would be best for this aging defense to ultimately set it up for future success. What scenario would have to unfold for the Dolphins to maybe trade down (maybe multiple times) to get more picks and maybe out of the first round all together.

Why is Rod Wright's name being mentioned in the first round and why is Gabe Watson's being mention in the 2nd? And how much of infatuation do the Dolphins have with Watson and Cromartie?

I've seen the studies. I was an economics major and the school of thought to which you are referring was a study done by economists. They found that the biggest "bang for your buck" as far as talent goes came in the 2nd round area. That means basically that the 2nd round is the area where you find the largest disparity between the value of the pick and the likely value and production of the player.

What it does NOT mean, is that a team should trade all their top picks to 2nd round picks. The measure was a RELATIVE measure...talent relative to the value of the pick, as measured by a value curve that was derived from years and years of draft day trades (basically the infamous trade value chart, mapped out on a curve). It does not show that 2nd round picks turn out to be better players than 1st round picks. It was also not within the realm of the study to show what is the best formula for operating a successful NFL franchise. There is reason to believe that trading down into the 2nd round will give you greater quantities of talent, but since there is also a lesser chance of achieving "elite" talent, one has to wonder if a team can win the Super Bowl without "elite" talents at some key positions. Everyone loves to use the Patriots as an example, but Tom Brady is about as "elite" a talent as you'll ever find...as is Richard Seymour...as is Ty Law...Willie McGinest...all high pedigree elite talents. Corey Dillon was an elite talent before struggling with injuries in 2005.