MERGED: I keep comparing Feeley to M. Hasselbeck, but now..

[inFINSible]

rickyrunsover, back away from the bait. I repeat...back away from the bait.

 

[PhinBeck]

:stuck: Yeah I hear ya! I tried and was successful staying out of your debate in this thread, you were doing fine. It was hard tho, I am as sarcastic as you and that dude was setting himself up. :laugh:

 

[Dphins4me]

:stuck: Yeah I hear ya! I tried and was successful staying out of your debate in this thread, you were doing fine. It was hard tho, I am as sarcastic as you and that dude was setting himself up. :laugh:

What dude? Me or Justa?

 

[PhinBeck]

What dude? Me or Justa?

You! Now granted you may have been responding to sarcasm, but you constantly said you proved inFINSible wrong when in fact all you did was provide your opinion.

Yeah there was alot of sarcasm, but i am the same so i kinda like his comments.

Anyhoo, you say Seattle gave up less than or equal to what we did and new what they were doing. You say well since they had the #9 pick they took the gamble and was smart on their part. You say guards are not a premium in the draft so gamble was safe.

My Reply

1. 17 to top ten is what it is regardless, they still gave up a top ten pick regardless of what it meant to them nor what happened to the player GB drafted. GB still got a top ten pick, GB looked at it as what they got. Teams dont look at the trade and say 'Well since it doent hurt you too bad, we will do it' they do it because they get value. So in that regard, Seattle gave up more than we did.

2. When is a gamble not a gamble? You admit they gambled, only hindsight allows you to say that everything worked out and they knew what they were doing, but at the time, you cannot say that as fact. Hence the definition of a gamble. Yep we gambled on Feeley based on RS's research and vote by Wolf who most consider an expert AND is the one that drafted Hasselback and Brunell. Oh and Brooks as well. Rick did trade with AJ thinking he could play now, it just so happens we have qb on the team the coach feels can play as well. Agree or disagree dont matter, Wanny gets the decision. When AJ has been three years and hasnt cracked the lineup or cant stay there, then it is a bust as fact. other than that it is conjecture.

3. Guards generally dont go high, granted. But it does happen, Andrews was drafted as a guard and Philli traded up to get him. We drafted Carey at 19 who plays both. So yes Seattle may have been confident in getting Hutchinson, and had a reason to be, they still gambled.

Besides that still doesnt mean they didnt give up more just because they still got who they wanted. They still gave up a valued pick to get the qb. On draft day and the 10 spot is up, that team can swap ones and pick up another pick or two because of teh talent available at that spot. So while Seattle felt comfortable giving it up and it works out for them doesnt change the value they gave up.

So in reality you proved noone wrong, you just stuck to your opinion.

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

Yeah there was alot of sarcasm, but i am the same so i kinda like his comments.

aww

a lot of people on this board are kings of sarcasm i hope you dont feel special..:D

 

[Dphins4me]

You! Now granted you may have been responding to sarcasm, but you constantly said you proved inFINSible wrong when in fact all you did was provide your opinion.

When I posted I proved him wrong it was about him misquoting me. Everything else is just opinion.

1. 17 to top ten is what it is regardless, they still gave up a top ten pick regardless of what it meant to them nor what happened to the player GB drafted.

Yes, they gave a top ten. However it is not that cut and dry. Seattle already had another top ten pick. Seattle knew the talent level in the draft in the mid 1st. Seattle knew everything they needed to know before agreeing to the trade. IMO that makes a huge difference.

GB still got a top ten pick, GB looked at it as what they got. Teams dont look at the trade and say 'Well since it doent hurt you too bad, we will do it' they do it because they get value. So in that regard, Seattle gave up more than we did.

What does the bolded part mean? And what does it have to do with this?

2. When is a gamble not a gamble? You admit they gambled, only hindsight allows you to say that everything worked out and they knew what they were doing, but at the time, you cannot say that as fact. Hence the definition of a gamble. Yep we gambled on Feeley based on RS's research and vote by Wolf who most consider an expert AND is the one that drafted Hasselback and Brunell. Oh and Brooks as well. Rick did trade with AJ thinking he could play now, it just so happens we have qb on the team the coach feels can play as well. Agree or disagree dont matter, Wanny gets the decision. When AJ has been three years and hasnt cracked the lineup or cant stay there, then it is a bust as fact. other than that it is conjecture.

A gamble is a gamble. However a calculated gamble is just that. Calculated. Seattle weighed the opitions available to them and decided it was a worth while gamble considering there was a great chance the player they wanted most likely would still be there.

Yes, Wolf drafted those guys. Wolf also draft Jay Barker & Troy Taylor & if you check back over the rest of his career, he draft only one other QB that amounted to anything. Sorry but IMO Wolf got on a lucky streak in GB with QBs, he is not the QB guru people are making him out to be or he would have hit on more. By the way he was in Oakland when Oakland draft Marc Wilson No. 1.

Wolf follows JJ draft philosophy. The only difference is Wolf does it with QBs & JJ did it with picks. Get as many as you can and you will hit on some & miss on some. No one will remember your misses.

I have yet to say Feeley the player will be a bust. I actually think he will be a decent QB. I have said and maintained the trade of a No. 2 for a No. 3 QB is the bust. They overpaid at the time of the trade. No matter what Feeley does it will not change the fact they overpaid at the time of the trade. Now 10 years from now we may look back and say "Miami got a great deal" because of Feeley production, however the fact will remain at the time of the trade Miami gave up too much. I do not see how anyone can say Feeley potential is worth a No. 2.

By the way, does anyone remember how Feeley played in the preseason last year?

When you pay with the future you pay more.
It hurt Miami on the RW trade and it will hurt them on the Feeley trade.
Off on a tanget-Was Seth McKinney really worth Miami's No. 1 pick in the 2003 draft? That is basically how the RW trade played out, because had Miami offered up that 2002 No. 3 instead of the conditional one in 2003 then Miami would not have lost its No. 1 pick in '03.

Back on subject

3. Guards generally dont go high, granted. But it does happen, Andrews was drafted as a guard and Philli traded up to get him. We drafted Carey at 19 who plays both. So yes Seattle may have been confident in getting Hutchinson, and had a reason to be, they still gambled.

Andrews & Carey were both drafted as tackles. They may play guard early in their career (Leonard Davis), but they both will be tried at tackle unless they prove they cannot handle the position of guard. Very rarely does a pure guard get drafted high. I have already given the data on that.

Besides that still doesnt mean they didnt give up more just because they still got who they wanted. They still gave up a valued pick to get the qb. On draft day and the 10 spot is up, that team can swap ones and pick up another pick or two because of teh talent available at that spot. So while Seattle felt comfortable giving it up and it works out for them doesnt change the value they gave up.

In a blind situation I will agree that Seattle gave up more, but once the draft prospects are known and their talent level determined, IMO the draft value board changes. That is why one year you get a pick traded for more than others. Its because of the talent level of the prospects. How many times have you heard "there will be players drafted in the 1st round that do not carry a 1st grade?"
I'd rather make the trade Seattle made and when they made it, than do what Miami did. Seattle was able to sit back and look at their needs,the prospects and determine their value. They knew the talent level in the draft

So in reality you proved noone wrong, you just stuck to your opinion.

Read first reply.

 

[PhinBeck]

Andrews was drafted to play guard, they stated that at the draft, if they changed their tune, so be it, I havent followed the eagles closely.

The bolded part means while Seattle may have felt comfortable giving it up, due to already having pick 9 and believing the guard would be there, it was still GB looking at it as getting a top ten pick. It isnt just about what Seattle felt they were giving up, it was also about what GB felt they were getting, even tho they screwed up the pick. In that giving up a top ten pick was the deal, they felt that was the value. It is a two sided coin. No team gives up value unless it feels it is getting value. RS didnt say well I dont want a second rd pick so I will give it up for a no name nobody.

I will research the qbs by wolf as he was also with the jets. But you are in the minority as regards to wolfs ability to judge qbs. Fassel is another qb expert as noted by his peers and he also praised Feeley. The whole point is until Feeley actually plays or fails to play, it is ridiculous to assume he is a bust. The point about Hasselback is yes they started him, bu they then benched him. They believed he was ready when clearly he wasnt. Now they seem like geniouses, but had he not turned it around, how good would you be looking at it now?

 

[Dphins4me]

Andrews was drafted to play guard, they stated that at the draft, if they changed their tune, so be it, I havent followed the eagles closely.

He was. For this year. Runyan (sp) is hurting and is close to being on his last leg. He plays the RT spot, which is where Andrews was projected to play coming out.

The bolded part means while Seattle may have felt comfortable giving it up, due to already having pick 9 and believing the guard would be there, it was still GB looking at it as getting a top ten pick. It isnt just about what Seattle felt they were giving up, it was also about what GB felt they were getting, even tho they screwed up the pick.

GB obviously overvalued Reynolds.

In that giving up a top ten pick was the deal, they felt that was the value. It is a two sided coin. No team gives up value unless it feels it is getting value. RS didnt say well I dont want a second rd pick so I will give it up for a no name nobody.

I'll agree with that. I know RS did not think that, however I think he like GB overvalued Feeley and what people around the league thought of him.
The reason it cost Miami a No. 2 is because they like to pay more by giving away higher picks in the future. Feeley would have cost Miami a No. 3 this year had they had one.

I will research the qbs by wolf as he was also with the jets.

He drafted Troy Taylor with the Jets in the 4th or 5th round in '90. I believe it was.
He was with the Raiders from '78 to '89. I think. Those are ball park years.

But you are in the minority as regards to wolfs ability to judge qbs.

I know. Things tend to get blown out of proportion sometimes. This being one of them. He had a great run with GB. That is it.

Fassel is another qb expert as noted by his peers and he also praised Feeley.

Yes, I heard that.

The whole point is until Feeley actually plays or fails to play, it is ridiculous to assume he is a bust.

Like I said. I have never said Feeley would be a bust. Once again I have said and maintain. The bust I was referring too was the price paid. When you have been in the NFL for 3 years then your value is pretty much set until you do something. Miami overpaid because they like trading future picks instead of current picks.

The point about Hasselback is yes they started him, bu they then benched him. They believed he was ready when clearly he wasnt. Now they seem like geniouses, but had he not turned it around, how good would you be looking at it now?

When you make a trade like they did, then I feel you should have the balls to stand behind it, untill the guy proves he is not ready. Seattle did just that. Miami is not.

 

[PhinBeck]

Cannot argue to much with what you said, but I do feel they are standing up for Feeley in that it is a clear competition from the get. Look at when they brought in Lucas and Griese, both times Wanny clearly stated they were backups. He says the comp between Aj and Jay is even and the battle was open. To me I think they are doing it right, yes you can believe in AJs ability, that does not mean he will progress as fast as you think or that with the turmoil it wont hamper his growth, competition brings out the best and if he outoplays Jay he will start, if he doesnt Jay will. Doesnt mean that he wont pan out. Yes Seattle put their guns in Hasselback but that still doesnt change the fact he wasnt ready. I would rather Feeley play when he clearly has a grasp on the offense.