Merged X12: Ongoing Henne vs. Sanchez Debate...

[nyjunc]

The Titans had scoring drives of 10 plays for 81 yds, 10 plays for 74 yds, and 5 plays for 78 yds. Henne also threw the game tying TD to Fasano during a 10 play, 90 yd TD drive.
The Texans had scoring drives of 6 plays for 45 yds (FG), 9 plays for 80 yds, 6 plays for 94 yds (all in the 1st quarter), 3 plays for 28 yds, and 12 plays for 60 yds (FG)
The Steelers had scoring drives of 12 plays for 80 yds, 6 plays for 67 yds, 9 plays for 52 yds (FG), 8 plays for 90 yds, 8 plays for 51 yds (FG), and 14 plays for 83 yds (FG)

Out of all of these drives, the only one you could blame the QB for would be the 3 play 28 yd drive Houston had (out of 12 drives in the game).

Now let's hear your retort please.....

-Miami D picked off Young on 1st drive setting Miami up at Ten 25, henne led them to a FG
-Next drive- 15 yards and a punt
-next drive Miami fumbles at ten 25
-next drive, Miami had 1st and G from the 8 and settles for FG
-next drive, henne picked off in FG range


vs. hou:

1st half possessions:

-punt
-punt
-INT at Mia 28 that setp up Hou TD
-punt
-FG

the set up 7 against them and scored 3, that's a -4 net. You'll win alot of games like that.

he didn't finish the Pitt game but down 17-10 before he came out he throws an INT, the Miami D gets it back on an INT and in FG he fumbles and gets sacked on back to back plays taking them out of FG range.

 

[nyjunc]

Ah i see, so when teams put up 27 points or more against the Dolphins its Henne who failed(or "didnt play the best football when it mattered"), yet when the Jets give up 20 points and lose the games there isn't a point and Sanchez shouldn't be held accountable for his individual numbers. The irony is so thick i could cut it with a knife.
And every game Henne played last year(save for the Bills) came down to the last minute or two, or even the very last drive of the game to decide. Sometimes our D held, some of the time it was Henne driving us down the field, and sometimes our defense put us in a hole that was way to deep.

Just the opposite, im pointing out that the Jets had the number 1 ranked defense, a plethora of talent on both sides, arguable the best offensive line in football, and what Sanchez did(or didnt do) in games. I've specifically asked for opinions on how Sanchez would do if given similar team scenarios. As you have been determined to ignore an entire side of football and willing throw blame to the QB for losing games, i did the same by merely looking up how your team in similar(though still less points) situations.

I didn't say ALL the blame was on henne, I said he played his worst games and he did. You guys are afraid to blame him and place all the blame on the defense. AGAIN, the D deserves its share of the blame but so does Henne and the O for not scoring and not keeping the team in the game, taking some pressure off the defense.

If we reversed the situations I think Sanchez has more success in Miami than henne here. That's if Mark had a year + to learn and if henne was thrown into the fire day 1. Putting a rookie Sanchez on Miami last year and I don;t think he ahs the success Henne had and i think putting 2nd year henne on our team last year he could have had more success than Sanchez.

 

[DuderinoN703]

-Miami D picked off Young on 1st drive setting Miami up at Ten 25, henne led them to a FG
-Next drive- 15 yards and a punt
-next drive Miami fumbles at ten 25
-next drive, Miami had 1st and G from the 8 and settles for FG
-next drive, henne picked off in FG range


vs. hou:

1st half possessions:

-punt
-punt
-INT at Mia 28 that setp up Hou TD
-punt
-FG

the set up 7 against them and scored 3, that's a -4 net. You'll win alot of games like that.

he didn't finish the Pitt game but down 17-10 before he came out he throws an INT, the Miami D gets it back on an INT and in FG he fumbles and gets sacked on back to back plays taking them out of FG range.

Alright, you had said that the QB turned it over and put the opponent into good field position. None of what you just said backs that up. Your argument now is that Henne didn't throw enough TDs. You also include how the Phins fumblred the ball at the TEN 25, this is Henne's fault somehow?

I had already mentioned the INT vs Houston as it was the only time Henne had put the opponent in a good position to score (this after 13 other scoring drives I mentioned earlier, none of which were Henne's fault).

Do we know have to point out how many times the Jets had to settle for FGs? Feely was 18 of 21 inside 40 yards in the regular season. Carpenter was 16 of 17 inside 40 yards as well. Feely kicking inside 40 yards 21 times shows that sometimes you don't always score TDs (which you blame the QB for apparently).

You also blame the Phins offense for the Colts loss. How about Henne's throw to Ginn in the endzone where Ginn dropped it? That Henne's fault too?

 

[ckparrothead]

The 0-3 start took all the pressure off henne.

Yes. Keep saying it. Because that makes it less absurd, just saying it more.

if he was the starter week 1 the pressure would have been building but he was a 1st year starter coming in after you lost your starter for the year due to an injury and you were 0-3. he had zero pressure, the pressure came when the Phins had destiny in their own hands and he played his worst football of the year those last 3 games w/ that pressure on.

LMFAO. OK. Yeah. No pressure on the guy to win with a division champion team sitting around him. Oh but I notice the pressure only flipped on (evidently 'pressure to perform' is like a switch, it's on or it's off) in Week 15. That was the time. Right then. Not Week 14 when we beat the Jaguars. Not Week 13 when we beat the Patriots. Week 15. It was right then.

And sure, he had his worst performances in those final three weeks. Except, oh wait he didn't. At least, not in any factual sense. In the complete fictional sense of a homerific Jets fan, I can see how you would think that. But as for facts, sorry but they're not on your side.

 

[Spesh]

I didn't say ALL the blame was on henne, I said he played his worst games and he did. You guys are afraid to blame him and place all the blame on the defense. AGAIN, the D deserves its share of the blame but so does Henne and the O for not scoring and not keeping the team in the game, taking some pressure off the defense.

If we reversed the situations I think Sanchez has more success in Miami than henne here. That's if Mark had a year + to learn and if henne was thrown into the fire day 1. Putting a rookie Sanchez on Miami last year and I don;t think he ahs the success Henne had and i think putting 2nd year henne on our team last year he could have had more success than Sanchez.

And when opposing teams weren't smothered to death by the best defense in the league, held to less then 2 touchdowns and a field goal, Sanchez played at his worst. How is it more acceptable that Sanchez can be excused from not scoring 21 points, but Henne is playing at his worst when he can't score 31 points. I'll admit, had Henne not thrown that int against the Titans we probably would have won, yet he was able to tie the game while our defense took the night off.
The minute the Jets D didn't (nearly) single handedly win games, Sanchez struggled, and more times then not(see: every) New York lost the games. As the question is "who is the better QB right now?" i can hardly see any arguement for Sanchez given all the factors. Showing "poise" while handing the ball off and holding teams to 2 scores just doesn't impress me.

Hardly the question that was asked. On their respective teams, had the Jets dealt with even slightly similar problems the Dolphins did, it could be argued that the Jets would have had the second overall pick in the draft. Meanwhile Henne took all the problems in stride, produced more with less against better adversity, and at the very least this is up for debate(though not much of one).

 

[nyjunc]

Alright, you had said that the QB turned it over and put the opponent into good field position. None of what you just said backs that up. Your argument now is that Henne didn't throw enough TDs. You also include how the Phins fumblred the ball at the TEN 25, this is Henne's fault somehow?

I had already mentioned the INT vs Houston as it was the only time Henne had put the opponent in a good position to score (this after 13 other scoring drives I mentioned earlier, none of which were Henne's fault).

Do we know have to point out how many times the Jets had to settle for FGs? Feely was 18 of 21 inside 40 yards in the regular season. Carpenter was 16 of 17 inside 40 yards as well. Feely kicking inside 40 yards 21 times shows that sometimes you don't always score TDs (which you blame the QB for apparently).

You also blame the Phins offense for the Colts loss. How about Henne's throw to Ginn in the endzone where Ginn dropped it? That Henne's fault too?

My argument is not that Henne didn't throw enough TDs, it's that he didn't do enought o lead his O to points early in games to keep them in games.

The fumble isn't his fault but the INts are and his iniablity to put drives together he gets his share of the blame for.

You can show that all you want but I wasn't making excuses for sanchez like you guys are for henne. When I do that then you can show that info.

Now henne is getting credit for a pass against indy when he didn't even play? I didn't blame their O for that loss anyway.

I haven't blamed the Phins O for any of those losses but they were a aprt of the problem and deserved their share of the blame while you guys are trying to just blame the D.

Yes. Keep saying it. Because that makes it less absurd, just saying it more.



LMFAO. OK. Yeah. No pressure on the guy to win with a division champion team sitting around him. Oh but I notice the pressure only flipped on (evidently 'pressure to perform' is like a switch, it's on or it's off) in Week 15. That was the time. Right then. Not Week 14 when we beat the Jaguars. Not Week 13 when we beat the Patriots. Week 15. It was right then.

And sure, he had his worst performances in those final three weeks. Except, oh wait he didn't. At least, not in any factual sense. In the complete fictional sense of a homerific Jets fan, I can see how you would think that. But as for facts, sorry but they're not on your side.

He had NO pressure coming in, you can believe it or not. I don't care. If he was starting that is something different but he didn't start ay of those 3 games

Please stop w/ the div championship stuff, most divisions change champs every year and we all know if Brady is healthy in 2008 they easily win the division. That's like saying in 1999 Rick Mirer then ray Lucas had a ton of pressure on them after Vinny went down b/c we won the division the year before OR in 2003 when Chad went down that Vinny had all the pressure on him b/c we won the div the year before. The div title had nothing to do w/ 2009 and being 0-3.


You are right,m I'm wrong. he was great those last 3 games. How could one not be impressed w/ leading his team to a total of 9 points in the first halves of the Ten and Hou games when they controlled their own destiny. He was spectacular.

 

[Predaphin]

As far as I am concerned, so far the score is Henne 2 Sanchez 0.

In the end, winning is all that matters.

 

[nyjunc]

And when opposing teams weren't smothered to death by the best defense in the league, held to less then 2 touchdowns and a field goal, Sanchez played at his worst. How is it more acceptable that Sanchez can be excused from not scoring 21 points, but Henne is playing at his worst when he can't score 31 points. I'll admit, had Henne not thrown that int against the Titans we probably would have won, yet he was able to tie the game while our defense took the night off.
The minute the Jets D didn't (nearly) single handedly win games, Sanchez struggled, and more times then not(see: every) New York lost the games. As the question is "who is the better QB right now?" i can hardly see any arguement for Sanchez given all the factors. Showing "poise" while handing the ball off and holding teams to 2 scores just doesn't impress me.

Hardly the question that was asked. On their respective teams, had the Jets dealt with even slightly similar problems the Dolphins did, it could be argued that the Jets would have had the second overall pick in the draft. Meanwhile Henne took all the problems in stride, produced more with less against better adversity, and at the very least this is up for debate(though not much of one).

Our D was the best in the league but our D was not dominating. our D blew a few leads in games that Sanchez helped us get inclduing that game in Miami.

I don't expect Henne to lead you to 31 PPg but crowing over 20 when you were down 27-0 and Hou was never in danger of losing the game is a little silly.

The Jets had alot of problems in 2009 from injuries to a rookie QB to the big losing streak and they bounced back to make the Title Game.

 

[nyjunc]

As far as I am concerned, so far the score is Henne 2 Sanchez 0.

In the end, winning is all that matters.

It is and a trip to the Title Game trumps a 2-0 reg season record.

 

[AdamD13]

NYJ's 3 biggest games: playoffs @ Cincy, @ SD, @ Indy

41-68, 539 yds, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, 92.7 rating, 2-1 record

C'mon...I have seen you bunch Sanchez' playoff games together on several posts to try and show Sanchez was really something in the postseason. Pure manipulation of stats. The reality is Sanchez was great against Cincy and sucked against both SD and Indy! The Jets only scored 17 points against both SD and INDY. The Redskins, Lions, Bills, Browns, Buccaneers, Raiders, and Rams are the only teams in the NFL last year averaging less than 17 ppg.

CINCY...Sanchez was 12 of 15 for 182 yards, 1 TD pass, 139.4 QB rating. Great game, but Sanchez was not asked to carry the team and face it, Cincy was injured and had NO HEART at the end of the year. This is a team that had ONLY won 3 of their previous 7 games and those wins were against Cleveland, Detroit, and KC...the bottom of the barrel. But Sanchez did play great that game.

SD...Sanchez sucked this game. 12 of 23 for 100 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 60.1 QB rating. If the Jets were to advance based on Sanchez play it would be the end of the road.

INDY...Sanchez mediocre at best this game. 17 of 30 for 252 yards, 2 TD, 1 int, 93.3 QB rating. However, this is one of those games when stats lie. His stats are deceptive for 2 reasons.

The first being a 80 yard TD pass to Edwards. Sanchez stats were padded by one play...a piss-poor play by the Colts undrafted rookie DB (Jacob Lacey). This was just pathetic coverage by Lacey. This was a play where Lacey was looking in the backfield trying to read Sanchez eyes instead of sticking with Edwards, bit on a slant and lost his balance. A big-time rookie mistake looking to make a big-time play instead of playing smart. The only starting QB that doesn't make that throw is Jamarcus Russell who would have fumbled the ball before he could throw it, I am sure. Edwards had to slow down and wait for the ball while it was in the air. This one play really helped INFLATE Sanchez' numbers. Otherwise he was, 16 of 29 for 172 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 69.89 QB rating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS1lhXKwbgw&feature=related

The second is with the game on the line in the 2nd half the Jets got completely SHUT OUT!!! In fact, Sanchez 2nd half numbers were PATHETIC...12 of 21 for 135 yards, 1 int, 56.64 QB rating. Even worse is Sanchez built up his QB rating the final 1:06 seconds when the Jets got the ball at their own 10 yard line. The colts went into a deep coverage, prevent defense and Sanchez was able to throw 4 dink passes for 45 yards. Totally meaningless. So with the game on the line in the 2nd half Sanchez real numbers were 8 of 17 for 90 yards, 1 int, 38.84 QB rating.

You can group these numbers together and try and make it look like he had a really good postseason, but when they are taken in their true context Sanchez was anything but good in the postseason other than playing against a pathetic, injured, gutless Bengal team in the Wild Card game.

 

[Nawledge]

Originally Posted by nyjunc
The 0-3 start took all the pressure off henne.

hahaha your too much man

 

[ckparrothead]

He had NO pressure coming in, you can believe it or not. I don't care.

Well, that's apparent. You obviously don't care about trifling things like actually being right, either.

Please stop w/ the div championship stuff, most divisions change champs every year and we all know if Brady is healthy in 2008 they easily win the division. That's like saying in 1999 Rick Mirer then ray Lucas had a ton of pressure on them after Vinny went down b/c we won the division the year before OR in 2003 when Chad went down that Vinny had all the pressure on him b/c we won the div the year before. The div title had nothing to do w/ 2009 and being 0-3.

Yes, Rick Mirer and Vinny Testeverde DID have pressure on them. Obviously Vinny could handle it. Rick could not. One threw a million passes in the NFL. The other did not. Coincidence? Now, Ray Lucas on the other hand, he really did take over the team when all had been lost. That's a situation where the pressure was lessened significantly.

But this attempt by you to say that there was no pressure on Henne to perform when he took over for Pennington halfway through the 3rd game of the season is ABSURD.

You are right,m I'm wrong. he was great those last 3 games. How could one not be impressed w/ leading his team to a total of 9 points in the first halves of the Ten and Hou games when they controlled their own destiny. He was spectacular.

Nice straw man. I guess you must love to dance. So now that it's obvious that Henne did not have his WORST performances in those three games, you have to make yourself look better by pretending that I said they were his BEST performances.

Except here's the difference between us. You actually stated that Henne had his worst performances in those last three games. I never said that he had his best performances in those three games.

Do you actually think you sound smart, when you argue? Because you're doing a very poor job of it. You sound emotional and desperate, latching onto flimsy assertions and "facts" that turn out to be complete fiction, and when pressed you have to completely disfigure what anyone says to you in order to try and give some semblance (really in your own mind, because nobody else is buying it) of you looking better.

It's kind of sad. I thought I remembered you being a lot more rational than this. You must have hung out here too long.

 

[jfaulknercahill]

INDY...Sanchez mediocre at best this game. 17 of 30 for 252 yards, 2 TD, 1 int, 93.3 QB rating. However, this is one of those games when stats lie. His stats are deceptive for 2 reasons.

The first being a 80 yard TD pass to Edwards. Sanchez stats were padded by one play...
.

that makes you sound like a moron. he pump faked the **** out of freeny. that was an amazing play by sanchez.

 

[MD]

So based on statistics you call it a season if you a start 0-3?

If ou start 0-3 there is more pressure to perform because you can't afford to lose any more.

Junc, please stop the ridiculous talk of Sanchez being so important in the big games for the Jets. He was along for the ride, nothing more.

 

[Spesh]

Our D was the best in the league but our D was not dominating. our D blew a few leads in games that Sanchez helped us get inclduing that game in Miami.

I don't expect Henne to lead you to 31 PPg but crowing over 20 when you were down 27-0 and Hou was never in danger of losing the game is a little silly.

The Jets had alot of problems in 2009 from injuries to a rookie QB to the big losing streak and they bounced back to make the Title Game.

Yet Miami's defense blew leads(or put us in the hole) nearly every single week. Yet Henne was able to win games or close the gap. Thats with virtually little or nothing to work with on offense.

Had the Jets not made the playoffs, this wouldnt even be a question. Yet, Jets fans(like you are doing right now) argue that Sanchez is the better QB because of it. The stats have been listed, the scores have been listed, the schedule listed, injury reports listed, history of teams listed, and all of it ignored. Crowing over completing 12 passes per playoff games against teams that fell apart at the end of the season and the most accurate kicker in NFL history missing 3 kicks, is just as silly as us being appreciative that Henne closed a 27 point gap to being down by 1 score. Lauding over Sanchez having 1 more regular season win then Henne, while playing 2 teams that just laid down(creating enough of an game balance issue that the NFL literally worked on ways to fix it) is just as silly as us noting our defense's collapse during the final 3 games.

With the logic that has been argued, how Henne "played at his worst when it mattered" i suppose it could be said that Mark Sanchez is a better QB then Aaron Rodgers, Kurt Warner, Phillip Rivers, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, Tom Brady and Donovan McNabb. I mean, all those guys did was produce better stats, but they didn't get as far as Sanchez did in the playoffs(therefore, obviously, not playing well enough).
I do take comfort in the fact that Curtis Painter and Mark Brunell are better then Sanchez. Stats and how they were used on their team don't matter, but they did win their respective Title games.