My First Top Ten for 2009

[ckparrothead]

wow, thats alot of reading right there. So you have changed your stance on Selvie then CK? I remember a while back you sort of scoffed at and said you chuckle anytime people assume Selvie can slide out to 3-4 olb. I dont see why he cant. Also, Dave Maclin is electric with the ball in his hands, and has more size than Harvin. I like Dave Maclin.

That's probably an exaggeration of what I actually said. I have never particularly seen Selvie as a guy that should move out to OLB, and I still do not. But I've always acknowledged he's an extremely hard working player that is coachable and a player like that can probably make a transition to that position, but rather the question should be...do you really want him to? Personally, I would rather draft him to play RDE in a 4-3. But if Miami can't get hold of Michael Johnson or Greg Hardy...and we're not too keen on some of the LB or NT prospects...Selvie's still worth a shout. There's nothing set in stone about what he can and can't do.

 

[ckparrothead]

CK,what is it in your opinion that prompts you to include Maurice Jenkins on your list instead of Victor Davis?

Mainly experience. I believe that all things being equal (and I do believe they are relatively equal between the two players) they will tend toward the player with more experience. Experience not only helps you make the transition to the pros better, but it also shows that you've been through more testing and obstacles and yet you still made it this far to be considered this high. Vontae Davis may have ability but he's only been through one or two years of playing really well.

 

[ckparrothead]

what makes you think it was for the NT spot and not the LE spot?
btw you did think Dorsey was a NT in a 3-4 and you and I got into lots of back and forth arguments regarding this and now he is a 4-3 DT and sitll isnt playign well Trust me, big difference btw Fergie at 300 and the dude ur saying can play NT at 300. Starks is 300 but can't play NT.

Because they are absolute sticklers for height in their Ends and Linebackers. Parcells has admitted it is something that he doesn't compromise on.

And Starks is 300, and they have long considered him to have the position flexibility to move over to NT if they need him.

Also, let's not forget the 300 pound Jay Ratliff, who played NT over in Dallas under Ireland and Parcells.

 

[ckparrothead]

I really dont see Parcells spending a top 10 pick on an ilb or wr. Unless that ILB is a future perennial Pro Bowler in his eyes, I cant see it happening. I see Parcells going O Line or grabbing a freakishly athletic "tweener".

I don't think I would put ILB in the same category as WR in that regard...but nonetheless I'm not sure they'd make the decision that Rey is worth a top 10 pick.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

don't be a Tedslimmjr and play with words ck ! lol !

on a more serious note lol Rey misfiring and misreading plays is subtile, but still a factor. But from that standpoint, do you expect an ILB's read to get better or worse when coming in pro football ? College has mutliple formations and the one trend right now is to spread the ball around like a .... very obscene thing... lol
he'll have a much easier job making his reads in the pros IMO... if he can soak up the playbook well and fast obviously

on a sidenote...look what pat willis brought to the san fran defence, brian urlacher, ray lewis, like you mentionned... yes they are a rarity but i think Rey fits in that category ... he has top notch size, speed, strenght, agressiveness, playmaking ability, leadership, athleticism etc.

i'm not rooting yet for rey to be a fin but i can't deny that right now him or an elite pass rusher would fit the bill... a shutdown corner is needed more than anything but i am a "best player available" believer

The difference is Patrick Willis did it with a significantly less amount of talent around him that the opposing defenses had to account for.

Willis also did it for a while with a cast on one arm in the most physical conference in the country.

I think Clay Matthews has as good of a chance to make a good pro as the other 2, more hyped LB's.

The steriod allegations involving Cushing cause concern for me. The physical changes to his body from his sophomore to junior years was incredible.

I'm also of the BPA mentality at a position of need (or upgrade for that matter) in the top 10 as long as it's addressing a cornerstone position.

Personally, I value an elite pass rusher, or "shutdown" corner over an ILB...unless he's as special as Patrick Willis was...which I don't think Ralph Maualuga is...

Urlacher was a safety at New Mexico and projected perfectly at MLB in a Tampa 2 scheme.

 

[SR 7]

Because they are absolute sticklers for height in their Ends and Linebackers. Parcells has admitted it is something that he doesn't compromise on.

And Starks is 300, and they have long considered him to have the position flexibility to move over to NT if they need him.

Also, let's not forget the 300 pound Jay Ratliff, who played NT over in Dallas under Ireland and Parcells.

dude it isnt all about weight. tis how u play, ur center of gravity, your strenght at the point of attack etc. Starks lacked the strenght during his time at NT in last weeks game. he is a LE not a NT. you just cant look at weight and say that. You said the same thign abotu dorsey adn compared him to WIlliams of SD and NE NT. just b/c those 2 aren't 340 lbs doesnt mean u can play anyone at 300 lbs.

You have good knowledge of the game but I see you still dont understand this NT business. You and Boomer went DAYS ranting and arguing wiht me on how Dorsey is a NT in an 3-4. Once the draft and NFL came around we all saw he wanst and he isnt even doing good as a 4-3 DT. Dont make the same assumptions as you did once iwth dorsey.

 

[SR 7]

The difference is Patrick Willis did it with a significantly less amount of talent around him that the opposing defenses had to account for.

Willis also did it for a while with a cast on one arm in the most physical conference in the country.

I think Clay Matthews has as good of a chance to make a good pro as the other 2, more hyped LB's.

The steriod allegations involving Cushing cause concern for me. The physical changes to his body from his sophomore to junior years was incredible.

I'm also of the BPA mentality at a position of need (or upgrade for that matter) in the top 10 as long as it's addressing a cornerstone position.

Personally, I value an elite pass rusher, or "shutdown" corner over an ILB...unless he's as special as Patrick Willis was...which I don't think Ralph Maualuga is...

Urlacher was a safety at New Mexico and projected perfectly at MLB in a Tampa 2 scheme.

I LOVE REY ive been on his jock for quite some time now as I was with Willis. Id love to get that kid but I do think miami will go for a pass rusher in round 1 as they have a history of oding that (BP meaning) and I expect orakpo or CUrry to be HIGH and i mean curry to be VERY HIGH on their list. That man is a monster. They can go ILB or CB or WR in 2A, 2B, and 3. I doubt htey go for a NT in round 1-2. They usually find their NT in later rounds.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Mainly experience. I believe that all things being equal (and I do believe they are relatively equal between the two players) they will tend toward the player with more experience. Experience not only helps you make the transition to the pros better, but it also shows that you've been through more testing and obstacles and yet you still made it this far to be considered this high. Vontae Davis may have ability but he's only been through one or two years of playing really well.

So you believe Parcells would go for the "safer" pick versus the player with potentially more upside?

As far as versatitily goes, I do agree that the two players are equal....only one is superior athletically.

I also believe that they're two different types of defensive backs with different strengths and weaknesses.

How each prospect would fit in this particular scheme should also be a factor...

 

[ckparrothead]

So you believe Parcells would go for the "safer" pick versus the player with potentially more upside?

As far as versatitily goes, I do agree that the two players are equal....only one is superior athletically.

I also believe that they're two different types of defensive backs with different strengths and weaknesses.

How each prospect would fit in this particular scheme should also be a factor...

They won't necessarily go with the "safer" pick versus the one with more upside...that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that all things being equal, they'll go with the more EXPERIENCED pick rather than the less experienced pick...and those aren't necessarily the same things, though in many occasions it works out that way.

For instance, when it comes to George Selvie versus Greg Hardy, I think that Selvie is probably the safer football player and the safer pro with "the makeup" but Hardy is the more physically gifted player and they may decide that he also has "the makeup" but surely he has not proven it nearly as much as Selvie. But, in this case, I think they'd take Hardy over Selvie.

 

[ckparrothead]

dude it isnt all about weight. tis how u play, ur center of gravity, your strenght at the point of attack etc. Starks lacked the strenght during his time at NT in last weeks game. he is a LE not a NT. you just cant look at weight and say that. You said the same thign abotu dorsey adn compared him to WIlliams of SD and NE NT. just b/c those 2 aren't 340 lbs doesnt mean u can play anyone at 300 lbs.

You have good knowledge of the game but I see you still dont understand this NT business. You and Boomer went DAYS ranting and arguing wiht me on how Dorsey is a NT in an 3-4. Once the draft and NFL came around we all saw he wanst and he isnt even doing good as a 4-3 DT. Dont make the same assumptions as you did once iwth dorsey.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I find it hilarious that you choose to pat yourself on the back about Glenn Dorsey simply because he was drafted #5 overall as the best player available to a 4-3 team and if you haven't noticed, he's been playing a lot better over the last couple of games.

Fact of the matter is according to your logic, the Cowboys wouldn't have had Jay Ratliff at NT, the Dolphins wouldn't have Jason Ferguson at NT, and the Dolphins wouldn't have been very interested in Sedrick Ellis even though they were.

Not much patting on the back to be done on your end, in light of those things. Sorry, chief.

 

[SR 7]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I find it hilarious that you choose to pat yourself on the back about Glenn Dorsey simply because he was drafted #5 overall as the best player available to a 4-3 team and if you haven't noticed, he's been playing a lot better over the last couple of games.

Fact of the matter is according to your logic, the Cowboys wouldn't have had Jay Ratliff at NT, the Dolphins wouldn't have Jason Ferguson at NT, and the Dolphins wouldn't have been very interested in Sedrick Ellis even though they were.

Not much patting on the back to be done on your end, in light of those things. Sorry, chief.

I dont understand why after all these years your still so sensitive. Just b/c I said what i said it doesnt mean you shoudl get defensive about it and put me down. Mature up a little bit please.

and I have no idea what the part i highlighted in Bold had to do with anything. Did you not see me put in the words, STRENGHT AT THE POINT OF ATTACK, CENTER OF GRAVITY, ETC? or how i said HOW DO YOU KNOW ellis was being look at as a NT and not a LDE?! Thats what I said it comes down to not JUST weight. and Apparently you AVOID that and comment on somethign that had absolutely nothing to do wiht it. Honestly, its great having discussions with you but when you become defensive the way you do and attack the poster or try to make them look stupid it really does draw people away from wanting to converse about football with you.

and if you want me to act like you do, I HIGHLY doubt you call maclin by teh wrong name on purpose. Thats probably the stupidest excuse I've seen for someone defending their Image via Pride. People make mistakes its not a big deal. They wont think any lesser of you.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

They won't necessarily go with the "safer" pick versus the one with more upside...that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that all things being equal, they'll go with the more EXPERIENCED pick rather than the less experienced pick...and those aren't necessarily the same things, though in many occasions it works out that way.

For instance, when it comes to George Selvie versus Greg Hardy, I think that Selvie is probably the safer football player and the safer pro with "the makeup" but Hardy is the more physically gifted player and they may decide that he also has "the makeup" but surely he has not proven it nearly as much as Selvie. But, in this case, I think they'd take Hardy over Selvie.

If Davis has more athletic upside than Jenkins, yet Jenkins is more experienced, then all things are not equal. You're forced to place a premium on one of them.....so which prospect fits your particular sheme best should be the determing factor IMO...

Hardy goes up against better tackles week in and week out than Selvie does IMO...

Also, Selvie can be fooled and takes himself out of plays.....I worry about how well he can function in space if he were to play OLB in a 3-4.

How about a Marvin Johnson/Glenn Hardy comparison? Which direction do you think Parcells would go? Johnson more experienced....actually listed an inch taller than Hardy and same weight....probably just as physically gifted if not more..

Would Parcells pass up Johnson in that scenario for Hardy in your opinion?

 

[ckparrothead]

I dont understand why after all these years your still so sensitive. Just b/c I said what i said it doesnt mean you shoudl get defensive about it and put me down. Mature up a little bit please.

LOL, I see. You can dish it, you can't take it. That's fine. Some people have very thin skin. No big deal.

and I have no idea what the part i highlighted in Bold had to do with anything. Did you not see me put in the words, STRENGHT AT THE POINT OF ATTACK, CENTER OF GRAVITY, ETC? or how i said HOW DO YOU KNOW ellis was being look at as a NT and not a LDE?! Thats what I said it comes down to not JUST weight. and Apparently you AVOID that and comment on somethign that had absolutely nothing to do wiht it. Honestly, its great having discussions with you but when you become defensive the way you do and attack the poster or try to make them look stupid it really does draw people away from wanting to converse about football with you.

You asked the question about how I know they viewed Ellis as a NT and not a LDE and I answered it. Parcells has specifically said that he does not sacrifice height when it comes to DEs and LBs. Sedrick Ellis was 6'1".

Calm down and stop delving into personal attacks just because the validity of your claims has been challenged. It really detracts from peoples' opinion of you, I think.

and if you want me to act like you do, I HIGHLY doubt you call maclin by teh wrong name on purpose. Thats probably the stupidest excuse I've seen for someone defending their Image via Pride. People make mistakes its not a big deal. They wont think any lesser of you.

As a matter of fact, I did call him Brian on purpose. I was saying Brian Maclin (by accident, for sure) on the other board for a while and Boomer has corrected me, and it's become somewhat of a joke now I still call him Brian Maclin.

 

[SR 7]

LOL, I see. You can dish it, you can't take it. That's fine. Some people have very thin skin. No big deal.



You asked the question about how I know they viewed Ellis as a NT and not a LDE and I answered it. Parcells has specifically said that he does not sacrifice height when it comes to DEs and LBs. Sedrick Ellis was 6'1".

Calm down and stop delving into personal attacks just because the validity of your claims has been challenged. It really detracts from peoples' opinion of you, I think.



As a matter of fact, I did call him Brian on purpose. I was saying Brian Maclin (by accident, for sure) on the other board for a while and Boomer has corrected me, and it's become somewhat of a joke now I still call him Brian Maclin.

Uh, apparently you are oversensitive because I dont RECALL making a single personal attack on you or even anything to get you so sensitive to make the posts you do back. I said NOTHINGGGGGGGGGGG in that manner for you to do so. I honestly have no clue where you pull some of these things out from. Anyways, its very useless talking to you. Apparently you don't learn from your own mistakes or even gotten across to learning how to converse with people properly. Its ok, whatever gets you by during the day. I came into this thread trying ot have a normal decent Draft talk and as usual you can't keep one up w/out personal attacks or downgrading people. Just carry on, peace.

 

[ckparrothead]

If Davis has more athletic upside than Jenkins, yet Jenkins is more experienced, then all things are not equal. You're forced to place a premium on one of them.....so which prospect fits your particular sheme best should be the determing factor IMO...

Hardy goes up against better tackles week in and week out than Selvie does IMO...

Also, Selvie can be fooled and takes himself out of plays.....I worry about how well he can function in space if he were to play OLB in a 3-4.

How about a Marvin Johnson/Glenn Hardy comparison? Which direction do you think Parcells would go? Johnson more experienced....actually listed an inch taller than Hardy and same weight....probably just as physically gifted if not more..

Would Parcells pass up Johnson in that scenario for Hardy in your opinion?

I don't know, on the Johnson/Hardy front. It's not as clear as you make out. Johnson has more "experience" pretty much on paper only. He's been a part-time player until this year. Before this season, he'd only started 2 games in his career. So, in this case, you might even say the more experienced player is Greg Hardy, even though Hardy is an underclassman.

And Johnson isn't just listed taller, he's definitely taller period. If you watch the two play, it's plain as day I think. And as far as I know, it isn't just one inch, it's more like 2 or even 3 inches. Michael Johnson is a ridiculously tall, ridiculously athletic prospect and physically the potential is amazing. The problem is that like I said before this year he was a part-time player. His body suffered a lot of cramping during games. He claims that Emmitt Smith gave him a tip to drink pedialyte and that this has cleared up the cramping issues, but who knows if there's any validity to that. He shows a lot of flashes of a complete game, but he still doesn't do it often enough. He's what Randy Mueller would probably term an "ascending player".

Greg Hardy may be that too, but less so.

So, like I said, I don't claim to know in which situations Parcells would go with the guy that has higher upside or the "safer" pick. I do know that all things being equal, they would tend to place a little more emphasis on the experience factor. And, that's why I went with Malcolm Jenkins instead of Vontae Davis. If you disagree, disagree. You asked me why, I told you.