Paradigm Shift for Miami

[Tannchise]

Miami gambled once on his knee and lost, would they really do this again? the safest things having a qb controversy here

 

[Avigatorx]

I'm sorry, but this argument simply doesn't hold water. First, some athletes come back better after ACL surgeries. Second, there is no guarantee that a new QB would not suffer a similar injury. Is the risk higher coming back from ACL surgery? Sure. But it's hardly a coin flip. One of the major factors to keeping that (and the other knee) healthy is proper rehabilitation. And Tannehill, by all reports, has been doing that religiously. Finally...where is this highly skilled depth going to come from this offseason? The Fins aren't going to be bad enough to draft Rosen. Lamar Jackson? Sam Darnold? They're not someone this team should invest a first round pick in, IMO. There are simply too many other needs. Now if you want to talk about Josh Allen or Mayfield in the 3rd-4th, fine. But they're probably going to be overdrafted.

This being said, I am all for drafting a QB every second or third year at some point no matter what...but based on value. Overdrafting one because of Tannehill's knee injury would be silly.

Believe what you want bro. I'm not the one you have to convince.

For every medical miracle there are a dozen failures.

Sell your pitch to the front office, but I'm telling you, they make business decisions. Not drafting a QB early is a bad business decision.

That said, our FO is such a cluster**** we will probably still be in this situation for another 5 years.

BTW, Mayfield and allen arent making it to the 3rd round this year. I'd be ok if we took a QB in the second, but if we are drafting top 10 and dont take a QB, they sure as hell better be trading down because there are ALOT of QB hungry teams this year.

 

[Trade Viper]

Miami needs to completely change its philosophy on both offense and defense, replace a lot of players on the roster, and get new Front Office personnel. This finesse garbage isn't working, so go back to "real" football. But, I don't think that Gase will ever change, so it looks like I'll have to wait until the next regime change and hope for improvement.

Yes, and if I may add, for all of the Gase and TannenBUM supporters

LT Richmond Webb* 23 Rook 16
Miami Dolphins / 1st / 9th pick / 1990
LG Keith Sims 23 Rook 13 1 fumble recovered Miami Dolphins / 2nd / 39th pick / 1990
C Jeff Uhlenhake 24 1 16
Miami Dolphins / 5th / 121st pick / 1989
RG Harry Galbreath 25 2 16
Miami Dolphins / 8th / 212th pick / 1988
RT Mark Dennis 25 3 16
Miami Dolphins / 8th / 212th pick / 1987

How the Rayo, is it possible that in 4 years time, the Dolphins were able to assemble what would be one of the "legendary" offensive lines in NFL hisory??????? Oh and did I mention Dwight Stephenson???

Also J.J. picks up Z. Thomas in his first year as coach. Oh wait I forgot all of this is "blind luck" and picking up these types of players is a "crap shoot", Riiiiiight.

The Ever Knowing The Difference Between Luck And Skill VIPER

 

[hoops]

Any time you injure ligaments and tendons it creates scar tissue which makes the area less elastic and more susceptible to future injury. If he comes back there is no guarantee he will either play to his pre-injury level, or that he will be able to avoid missing a significant number of snaps due to future injury.

If I am Gase I am not banking my coaching career on the possibility that one guy comes back and plays at a high level without having an insurance policy waiting in the wings.

We have seen how Gase's offense works without very good QB play, even with a healthy Tannehill early last year it was ugly.

If Gase knowingly goes into next season without highly skilled depth at the QB position he is tying his own noose. There will be no excuses if Tannehill misses extended time and he could have taken a top flight QB but passed over him for some other position.

Torn acls and recovering from them and getting back to pre injury form even have become pretty routine in the nfl.

The best wr in the league this year Keenan Allen who has rediculous cod and short area quickness in and out of cuts is just over a year removed from it.

It would be different in terms of how teams see it had tannehill opted for the acl surgery initially and then retore it. But that isn’t the case here this is gonna be treated in the front office view like one injury and one surgery to correct it.

And that’s why despite a top 8 pick likely coming our way qb seems a highly unlikely pick

 

[Etuoo33]

I agree. IMO, Miami's recent (Philbin and Gase regimes) offensive philosophy is the reason why their offense is so bad, and it will continue to be bad until either Gase changes his offensive scheme or he is replaced. I believe you should use the old-school method of building a team with big, mean, and physically dominating players in the trenches, a strong running game, and a nasty, hard-hitting defense. (Football is a tough, physical sport... why wouldn't you want tough physical players?) Add to this a good QB who can make all the throws and you'll have a competitive, well-rounded team. If you happen to have a decent, game-manager type QB you can still win games without putting too much pressure on the QB.

But, Philbin and now Gase are into "finesse". (I guess it's because so many view the NFL as strictly a passing league, and copying fancy college offenses is trendy.) This is what I believe is Philbin's offensive philosophy (and Gase admitted to liking the same): The short pass is the basis of the entire offense. The short pass for the most part replaces the running game. Multiple receiver sets are meant to create mismatches. The QB should be able to recognize these mismatches and throw the ball to the receiver with the most favorable mismatch almost immediately after the snap. The success of this style of offense is then reliant upon the receiver getting yards after the catch. (The proof of this is seeing Miami repeatedly throw 3 or 4 yard passes when they need 7 or 8 yards for the first down.) I firmly believe the entire reason for the o-line woes is because they're getting the wrong type of o-linemen and running the wrong blocking schemes. They don't want old-school road-graders; they want quick, athletic linemen who can execute their zone-blocking schemes and get out to the second level to block for the receiver or the occasional run. Because the QB should be getting rid of the ball almost immediately after the snap there is no need for the linemen to sustain their blocks for too long, so big, strong, powerful linemen aren't wanted for this style of offense. However, the end result of Philbin and the Front Office building a line to suit their scheme/philosophy is a line that allowed Tannenhill to be sacked more than any other QB over a 4 year period. Philbin's "finesse" line was extremely weak, and was constantly pushed around and dominated by tough, physical d-lines. As for relying on the receiver making yards after the catch, Philbin's offense placed far too much emphasis on the short pass. This allowed defenses to move up and stack the box, putting them in position to both stop the run and limit the yards after the catch. Add to this a weak o-line that couldn't block a girl scout troop and the results were pathetic. The fact that Miami occasionally had a good running game or numerous successful deep balls was in spite of the offense... not because of it.

Today, Gase is running a similar style of offense, and using most of Philbin's o-linemen. Yes, they did add a few band-aids to the o-line, but it doesn't seem to be working because they're adding the wrong type of players and running the wrong style of blocking schemes. To actually achieve success with this style of offense you need an elite QB, a competent o-line, and a strong defense for when the offense stalls. Miami doesn't have an elite QB, and their defense is like their offense; weak and ineffective. They were using three first round draft picks on the o-line, and yet still couldn't effectively and consistently run block and pass block. Tannehill is NOT elite, but evidently his skillset was able to mask a lot of deficiencies on this offense... especially on the o-line. Without him, we can see that this style of offense run by an average (or worse) QB is worthless. Being probably the worst offense in the league is proof!

Miami needs to completely change its philosophy on both offense and defense, replace a lot of players on the roster, and get new Front Office personnel. This finesse garbage isn't working, so go back to "real" football. But, I don't think that Gase will ever change, so it looks like I'll have to wait until the next regime change and hope for improvement.

 

[The Goat]

Believe what you want bro. I'm not the one you have to convince.

For every medical miracle there are a dozen failures.

Sell your pitch to the front office, but I'm telling you, they make business decisions. Not drafting a QB early is a bad business decision.

That said, our FO is such a cluster**** we will probably still be in this situation for another 5 years.

BTW, Mayfield and allen arent making it to the 3rd round this year. I'd be ok if we took a QB in the second, but if we are drafting top 10 and dont take a QB, they sure as hell better be trading down because there are ALOT of QB hungry teams this year.

I'm not trying to convince you. I have a different opinion. And I'm pretty sure my view on things is closer to that of the FO's than yours; I don't think they're saying "We need to get ready for Tannehill to not be our QB Week 1 next year." As far as the draft, I agree about Allen, probably Mayfield. I'd absolutely love Benkert or Falk in the fourth, but there is absolutely no way that the Fins should take a QB top ten not named Darnold. There just isn't anyone worth it.

And again, Tannehill coming back to play Week 1 of 2018 isn't a medical miracle. It's NORMAL. But if you're going to give me a dozen players who failed to recover for every one who came back to play at or above the level they previously played at AFTER an ACL surgery, I give you Tom Brady and Rob Gronkowski. You need 24 failures.

Go.

 

[Etuoo33]

I disagree Gofin60. I think Gase would rather at least have balance if not build around the ground game, I see finesse as a necessity. Before Ajayi imploded, we used him as the hammer, run to set up pass. Our D is built around the DL. Our OL has 3 first round picks. Now, has the plan worked? Not at all.

 

[hoops]

Just get us a 2 deep with upside and I don’t mean 4th round caliber upside

It’s gonna be tough though cause teams are gonna overdraft qbs due to need

 

[Etuoo33]

Besides we tried JJ and The Fat Tuna, what did that get us? 2.5 yds and a cloud of astroturf.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Yes, and if I may add, for all of the Gase and TannenBUM supporters

LT Richmond Webb* 23 Rook 16
Miami Dolphins / 1st / 9th pick / 1990
LG Keith Sims 23 Rook 13 1 fumble recovered Miami Dolphins / 2nd / 39th pick / 1990
C Jeff Uhlenhake 24 1 16
Miami Dolphins / 5th / 121st pick / 1989
RG Harry Galbreath 25 2 16
Miami Dolphins / 8th / 212th pick / 1988
RT Mark Dennis 25 3 16
Miami Dolphins / 8th / 212th pick / 1987

How the Rayo, is it possible that in 4 years time, the Dolphins were able to assemble what would be one of the "legendary" offensive lines in NFL hisory??????? Oh and did I mention Dwight Stephenson???

Also J.J. picks up Z. Thomas in his first year as coach. Oh wait I forgot all of this is "blind luck" and picking up these types of players is a "crap shoot", Riiiiiight.

The Ever Knowing The Difference Between Luck And Skill VIPER

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Actually it IS luck. Not COMPLETE luck, but luck nonetheless. Look at it this way. If any person is a good judge of talent, AND if there is no luck, they will 'hit' on top players with EVERY pick. They don't. Certainly, there are evaluators who are better than others just as there are stock pickers better than others, but denying luck is denying reality. And, like gambling, some evaluators get a hot hand. Luck comes in clusters. Again, not claiming there is NO skill and not denying some are better than others, but, given no evaluator 'hits' on a R1 pick every year and most R1 picks are busts (fans seem to think those picks should be 1st year HOF or 'busts'), it's clear skill only goes so far. Not saying Baum is a top evaluator (I'm not his fan), but never fall for those turning the world as black and white. In fact, anyone denying, for example, Baum has NO postives or Tannehill has no flaws, should be ignored as baffons.

 

[Jerrysanders]

Quenton Nelson and Minkah Fitzpatrick should be priorities if we get a top ten pick.

 

[BSQ]

Dylan, I'm all for the purity of the game and if it were up to me we'd go back to the rules that we enjoyed for years before people had to tinker with it. The problem with relaxing the rules regarding contact on QBs is that QB are getting killed with the stricter rules in force. Athletes are bigger, faster and stronger than ever and if you give defensive players the ability to hit the QB like the old rules permitted most teams would be down to practice squad QBs and nobody wants that.

 

[BSQ]

Dylan, I'm all for the purity of the game and if it were up to me we'd go back to the rules that we enjoyed for years before people had to tinker with it. The problem with relaxing the rules regarding contact on QBs is that QB are getting killed with the stricter rules in force. Athletes are bigger, faster and stronger than ever and if you give defensive players the ability to hit the QB like the old rules permitted most teams would be down to practice squad QBs and nobody wants that.

 

[<O>]

Since the downfall of this season started, we have debated back and forth between coaches and personnel and front office. I think the downfall of the NFL is not the flag issue. It is the inability for teams to evaluate qb's and it is what injuries have done to qb's, and the teams' lack of ability to stay at a high level. Look at Green Bay. They have been called the Cleveland Browns without Rodgers. That means like Miami, hey have holes on top of holes, but Rodgers hides it. However, when Brady was suspended last year, their depth at qb kept them in the season.

Miami has to somehow defeat the inability of teams that cannot evaluate qb's and take advantage of the fact that there are aging qb's on teams that probably won't draft one soon, but could. There are a ton of teams that need a qb: NYJ, Miami, Buffalo, Cincy, Cleveland,Jax, Indy, Denver, NYG, Washington, Az, and SF. As for Washington and SF, I believe their qb's could move on. As for teams that won't need a qb, but could draft one:NE, Pitt, Chargers, Saints. This is about half the NFL.

The problem is a little bigger. I think Miami needs not one 1, but 2 qb's. I think if they are lucky enough to find a qb, who can hide the deficiences on this team, it would be logical to get another one, to keep the potential train from chugging. Again, look at the Packers. Look, I don't think the solution is looking at every position here on the Phins and figuring out the algebra needed to know if they should be a free agent, a rookie, or drafted. The truth is, teams with elite qb's do a banged up job at hiding how bad their personnel is. We here in Miami want all the holes filled and the qb, which is going to be impossible.

So how is this done? I asked yesterday if the problem was scouting. Seems coaches and players and front office personnel has changed a ton, but maybe we are not scouting well, and also promoting these poor scouts to GM, like Grier and Ireland. Miami needs to know and understand what Houston, Phily and LA saw in Goff, Watson and Wentz. I would love to know if these teams built their offenses in somehow a similar way to how those qb's succeeded in college. They also need to understand mistakes made by recent picks by Jax with Bortles, Denver with their mess, and Cleveland.

The problem gets more complicated. Brady and Bellichick's marriage has been a system related, same philosophical, flexible situation. We could draft a qb this year or sign a FA, however, if Gase and the front office gets fired, then what? I don't know if Ross is aware of the internal issues we have at finding talent. If the front office has scouts that can't scout, then the same front office will have flawed info to make key personnel decisions.

Sorry for the early morning rant

6 of the 14 QBs drafted in the top 10 overall since 2004 are playing at Tannehill's level or higher. Less than 50%.

Even when you're drafting in the top-10 overall, finding one of the league's best QBs is difficult.

This is why this team's offseason strategy this year should be signing Kirk Cousins and trading Tannehill for picks in my opinion. One of the league's top QBs stands to hit the free agent market this year. That happens very infrequently.