Pat Kirwan mock draft 5/2/14 | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Pat Kirwan mock draft 5/2/14

Does he fit our scheme? I really don't think he does. He seems a natural fit for a power scheme. If we want to say people use to be consider top 20 than we should be taking Lee at 19 as he was ranked top 5-10 player before.
 
Gonzo said:
Cool story. I know who Dr. Andrews is and I'll even buy that the surgery wasn't botched. What I won't buy is that his knee isn't going to cause him problems through his career. Hey, if 2014 was all we were drafting for, sure, sign me up. That's not the case though.

So, there are a few strikes against him IMO, with the biggest one being that I have no interest in drafting straight up RT at 19. Martin is a minor exception due to his versatility, but even then I'm not a huge fan, more indifferent.

As for Lewan, I also have no interest in Incognito Jr, not that he would fall to us anyways.


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ACL injuries are so common now that unless there's a particular problem/complication I don't know that they're such a big deal, especially for an OL. As to the RT position, imo last year Miami showed how critical of a position it really is- if Miami needs a stud RTand one is there at #19, depending on what else is out there I'd say go for it. For me the most intriguing draft story for Miami is our OL needs matched up with how strong the OL and WR classes are. I'm a Zach Martin fan, but even if he's there oneplayer keeps me thinking- WR Brandin Cooks. The intriguing element is the opportunity cost of taking a martin, or a Cooks for that matter, relative to what OTs and WRs will be available in rds 2-3. The problem is that if we don't go OT at #19 then most or maybe all of the top 10 OTs in this draft will likely be gone. You could be looking at the top OTs available at #50 being Jack Mewhort and Billy Turner, and I'm not really comfortable with that. If that were the case I'd probably go with plan B, take Michael Scholfield or Matt Patchan later in the draft. I'd hate to force a pick at #50 in such a deep draft, especially if a guy like Kyle Van Noy is available there.
 
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FearTheBeard said:
It's not a fad....2013 tape is 3rd round tape.
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Where would you rate the 2012 tape? is he better now than DJ Fluker? Where was Fluker drafted and how is he doing?

All that I can say is that I've looked over the 2012 and 2013 tape- 2012 is better, but in 2013 Kouandjio gave up 1.5 sacks before the lousy bowl game in somewhere around 300 pass plays. He's a road grader. I don't see a 3rd round player in the 2013 tape, not even close. And I see a top flight prospect in the 2012 tape. Who was it from OSU who got two sacks on Jake Long? Jake still went #1 overall.

Part of the fun of the draft is differing opinions, judging them against your own because it's fun and also to learn something. I altered my opinion of Tiny Richardson after reading some other opinions, going back to the tape and realizing that those opinion had more validity than mine. No shame there, and it's fun. I like the power and quick feet of Joel Bitonio, but Awsi Dooger gave me something to think about and I'll go back and watch more film. I do it because I enjoy it, and par tof that process is seeing what other people think. That being said, my opinion is that Cyrus Kouandjio is one hell of an OT that could be a GREAT fit for us at RT if his knee checks out, and so far I'm convinced that it does. Dude is a freaking steam roller with pretty darned good lateral movement, and I've been watching him and an amazing Alabama OL for the last few years. He had a few blips last season, but that dude is a very, very good football player and every time I watch him of film I'm reminded of it even more.

The latest craze is Ju'Wuan James, but personally while I like him I see a solid yet unspectacular 2nd to 3rd rd pick. If he and Koundjio are available at #19 and it's one or the other, I'm taking Kouandjio. Just opinions, same as the strong ones I have for Kyle Van Noy, James Gayle, Brandin Cooks, Matt Patchan and Trai Turner. That being said, please identify which games last season besides the Sugar Bowl Koundjio played like a 3rd rounder and i'll go back and look at the tape.
 
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jim1 said:
ACL injuries are so common now that unless there's a particular problem/complication I don't know that they're such a big deal, especially for an OL. As to the RT position, imo last year Miami showed how critical of a position it really is- if Miami needs a stud RTand one is there at #19, depending on what else is out there I'd say go for it. For me the most intriguing draft story for Miami is our OL needs matched up with how strong the OL and WR classes are. I'm a Zach Martin fan, but even if he's there on player keepsme thinking- WR Brandin Cooks. The intriguing element is the opportunity cost of taking a martin, or a Cooks for that matter, relative to what OTs and WRs will be available in rds 2-3. The problem is that if we don't go OT at #19 then most or maybe all of the top 10 OTs in this draft will likely be gone. You could be looking at the top OTs available at #50 being Jack Mewhort and Billy Turner, and I'm not really comfortable with that. If that were the case I'd probably go with plan B, take Michael Scholfield or Matt Patchan later in the draft. I'd hate to force a pick at #50 in such a deep draft, especially if a guy like Kyle Van Noy is available there.
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Glad we can drop the unnecessary "edumacation" and my sarcastic responses to it. This is more like it :hi-5:

I have to disagree regarding lasting knee issues, especially with linemen supporting far more weight and needing to be far more mobile in a ZBS. While repairing ACL injuries is far superior to what it once was (sometimes career ending), it still takes a long time for recovery and the risk of re-injury is high (15 times higher if I remember correctly). The latter is what concerns me. Too much of a risk for my blood, especially after last year's draft in which Ireland apparently spent most of his time scouting hospitals.

If for some reason we can't manage to land a RT somewhere in the draft, first, I'd have to question our GM's ability, and second, I'd be okay going with a FA and a developmental guy in the mid-to-late rounds over passing a more talented player out desperation.


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Gonzo said:
Glad we can drop the unnecessary "edumacation" and my sarcastic responses to it. This is more like it :hi-5:

I have to disagree regarding lasting knee issues, especially with linemen supporting far more weight and needing to be far more mobile in a ZBS. While repairing ACL injuries is far superior to what it once was (sometimes career ending), it still takes a long time for recovery and the risk of re-injury is high (15 times higher if I remember correctly). The latter is what concerns me. Too much of a risk for my blood, especially after last year's draft in which Ireland apparently spent most of his time scouting hospitals.

If for some reason we can't manage to land a RT somewhere in the draft, first, I'd have to question our GM's ability, and second, I'd be okay going with a FA and a developmental guy in the mid-to-late rounds over passing a more talented player out desperation.


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No offense intended, I was kidding around with the edumacation, but it was kind of smarty pants. As to the ACL injuries, I've been through two of them, one of the full blown cut me open type, the other a far less invasive procedure, but the patellar tendon was ravaged in both cases to create the new ACL. I spoke with Dr. Pete Indelicato years ago about flying to Gainesville for the cadaver transplant procedure but decided against it. That being said, the main problem imo is not the damage done to the patellar tendon but rather the subtle nerve damage that the the knee internally is subjected to- balance and leg coordination are compromised to differing degrees and it takes time, bottom line, to fully recover because nerves have to regenerate. 25 years later I can still sctrach one side of my knee and either feel it on the other side of the knee, or in some areas it feels numb. That's how it goes. But imo for an olineman, once they're healed they're good to go, the surgery is usually that good now. If Dr. Andrews signs off on Kouandjio's knee that's good enough for me.
 
Look, Joe Philbin has pulled out his hair because of the O-line the past 2 years. He has had to put up with slow lumbering guys like John Jerry because of Ireland's historic love of cornfed. Now for the 1st pick of Hickey's career as a GM, Pat Kirwan predicts we get the incredibly slow, big lumbering guy, Kouandjio, who doesn't fit the system and has a fully reconstructed knee that has caused some teams to cross him off their boards. Ain't gonna happen. After Joe's ongoing battle with Ireland, Hickey isn't going to piss him off first pick. It will either be a playmaker WR/TE, mike linebacker who can tackle or an O-lineman who fits the ZBS.
 
spiketex said:
Look, Joe Philbin has pulled out his hair because of the O-line the past 2 years. He has had to put up with slow lumbering guys like John Jerry because of Ireland's historic love of cornfed. Now for the 1st pick of Hickey's career as a GM, Pat Kirwan predicts we get the incredibly slow, big lumbering guy, Kouandjio, who doesn't fit the system and has a fully reconstructed knee that has caused some teams to cross him off their boards. Ain't gonna happen. After Joe's ongoing battle with Ireland, Hickey isn't going to piss him off first pick. It will either be a playmaker WR/TE, mike linebacker who can tackle or an O-lineman who fits the ZBS.
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See earlier posts as to the fallacy of the Koundjio knee stories and look at more tape, because Koundjio is not incredibly slow and lumbering, that's another fallacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2TJ8KDsDA8
 
jim1 said:
Where would you rate the 2012 tape? is he better now than DJ Fluker? Where was Fluker drafted and how is he doing?

All that I can say is that I've looked over the 2012 and 2013 tape- 2012 is better, but in 2013 Kouandjio gave up 1.5 sacks before the lousy bowl game in somewhere around 300 pass plays. He's a road grader. I don't see a 3rd round player in the 2013 tape, not even close. And I see a top flight prospect in the 2012 tape. Who was it from OSU who got two sacks on Jake Long? Jake still went #1 overall.

Part of the fun of the draft is differing opinions, judging them against your own because it's fun and also to learn something. I altered my opinion of Tiny Richardson after reading some other opinions, going back to the tape and realizing that those opinion had more validity than mine. No shame there, and it's fun. I like the power and quick feet of Joel Bitonio, but Awsi Dooger gave me something to think about and I'll go back and watch more film. I do it because I enjoy it, and par tof that process is seeing what other people think. That being said, my opinion is that Cyrus Kouandjio is one hell of an OT that could be a GREAT fit for us at RT if his knee checks out, and so far I'm convinced that it does. Dude is a freaking steam roller with pretty darned good lateral movement, and I've been watching him and an amazing Alabama OL for the last few years. He had a few blips last season, but that dude is a very, very good football player and every time I watch him of film I'm reminded of it even more.

The latest craze is Ju'Wuan James, but personally while I like him I see a solid yet unspectacular 2nd to 3rd rd pick. If he and Koundjio are available at #19 and it's one or the other, I'm taking Kouandjio. Just opinions, same as the strong ones I have for Kyle Van Noy, James Gayle, Brandin Cooks, Matt Patchan and Trai Turner. That being said, please identify which games last season besides the Sugar Bowl Koundjio played like a 3rd rounder and i'll go back and look at the tape.
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I think it's risky business buying a college guy on old tape. To me his athleticism has been grossly overrated throughout the process, I see a guy who isn't even a fit for our scheme, let alone a plus athlete. He plays on skates, constantly on the ground and has the worst balance I've seen. All of the games I watched to be honest I saw a guy who was overhyped, I looked all over the internet just to find a scouting report that saw things the same way and I think finally people are realizing he isn't as good as they think. To me he's a marginal athlete with no body control and poor lateral mobility. You've stated your angle on the knee injury, but they said the same thing about RGIII. Just my opinion, he's the last guy I'd want at 19. At 50 I'd really have to watch the **** out of his 2012 tape to feel even alright about the pick to be honest.
 
FearTheBeard said:
I think it's risky business buying a college guy on old tape. To me his athleticism has been grossly overrated throughout the process, I see a guy who isn't even a fit for our scheme, let alone a plus athlete. He plays on skates, constantly on the ground and has the worst balance I've seen. All of the games I watched to be honest I saw a guy who was overhyped, I looked all over the internet just to find a scouting report that saw things the same way and I think finally people are realizing he isn't as good as they think. To me he's a marginal athlete with no body control and poor lateral mobility. You've stated your angle on the knee injury, but they said the same thing about RGIII. Just my opinion, he's the last guy I'd want at 19. At 50 I'd really have to watch the **** out of his 2012 tape to feel even alright about the pick to be honest.
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Dude, first of all RGIII was playing on an injured knee that was previously reconstructed, because Shanahan is an idiot and an a-hole. I was waiting for him to pop his ACL in that game not in a mean way but because i've been through that more than once and having him on the field in that condition was freaking ludicrous. I knew two things in less that a second after RGIII went down- he popped his knee and Shanahan was going to be fired. When it's happened to you, you know what to look for- the twist, hyperextension at that little give of the joint at the moment of truth. I squirmed and recoiled when I saw that go down.

As to Koundjio, reply with the games in which you thought Kouandjio was overrated and I'll take a look. I've heard this before, and from of the tape I've seen and the Alabama games I've watched over the last 3 years I'm not buying it.
 
jim1 said:
As to Koundjio, reply with the games in which you thought Kouandjio was overrated and I'll take a look. I've heard this before, and from of the tape I've seen and the Alabama games I've watched over the last 3 years I'm not buying it.
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As I said it was the whole set of games I came away far from unimpressed, I don't think I'll sway you if you've already watched all of them. If you want to sway me I wouldn't mind checking out his best from 2012 and 2013 in your eyes.
 
FearTheBeard said:
As I said it was the whole set of games I came away far from unimpressed, I don't think I'll sway you if you've already watched all of them. If you want to sway me I wouldn't mind checking out his best from 2012 and 2013 in your eyes.
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Tell me which games Kouandjio looked like a 3rd rounder and I take another look at the film.
 
This mock was very well done and thought out. I agreed with him all the way up to 19. This is very much how I see the draft going but I must implore Hickey to please go BPA and take Mosley or Beckham if no trade can be found. I would rather gamble on James Hurst and/or Brandon Thomas in the 3rd and 4th then gamble on Cyrus at 19.
 
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