Patriots thinking clear cut favorite to win East

[The New Guy]

AV is a loss, but is he that much better than other kickers? If so, why didn't the fins get him? Mare is on the outs, right? Why didn't the Cowboys? If his loss causes a loss, I'd be surprised. This isn't the 2001 Patriots that won by a small margin.

I think so. I can’t think of one kicker that I would rather have than Vinatieri. There is not a kicker that I know of that has been more clutch than Adam. I know of two games he won for you guys just last year. Specifically the game against Pittsburgh. Not many kickers can be counted on to hit a 40+ yard field goal for the win time and time again. Is Adam that good? He kicked the game winning field goals in two Super Bowls, and kicked four game winning field goals in the playoffs for you guys. In my opinion losing Adam was the biggest loss for the Pats this offseasson. I think Brady will now have more pressure on him in close games because he will not have the security of knowing that he has a kicker that can make the game winning kicks. I think Brady and BB will not be as confident in the new kicker, which will effect play calling Ect… I have a feeling that move will come back to haunt BB.

Givens was a good #2. His (& Dwights & Johnsons) production will be made up by the guys on the team. Do you really think there's going to be this big dropoff? IMO, it won't happen. THe Pats stronger rushing attack will free up all the targets Brady now has to throw to. Form my perspective, he has a lot more choices than before, not less.

I am not sure if there will be a drop off in production or not. All I am saying is they lost Givens, Dwight, and Johnson, and replaced them with Jackson and Caldwell. Two guys that have not proven anything in the NFL. I don’t see how you can consider them an upgrade over guys you already know can play well.

Regarding rookies and their contributions, i see a lot of Fin fans counting on their 'improved secondary' due to rookies and guys who haven't shown much in the pros. Why can't I project the Pats rookies to excel? The Pats picks do have a record of performing above and beyound their draft slot (Hoobs, Wilson, Samuels, Mankins, Kazcur, etc).

You have to look at who they will be replacing. Jason Allen is the only rookie that I think will see significant playing time for the Dolphins. Although Allen may be a big part of our secondary, I am not counting on him to be a starter. Most of the upgrades for the Dolphins secondary came via free agency. We let Madison and Reggie Howard go, but we signed Will Allen, Renaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, and drafted Jason Allen. We also have some cb’s that are coming back from injury. We got rid of some weak links and added depth to the secondary. That is why most phinfans think our secondary will be better than last years.


There is no reason why you can’t project the Pats picks to be successful, but when they are replacing guys that already were successful, I don’t think you can count them as an upgrade until they prove that they are. You can’t say Jackson is an upgrade over Givins because he has not played in an NFL game.

 

[Tailgater]

I think so. I can’t think of one kicker that I would rather have than Vinatieri. There is not a kicker that I know of that has been more clutch than Adam. I know of two games he won for you guys just last year. Specifically the game against Pittsburgh. Not many kickers can be counted on to hit a 40+ yard field goal for the win time and time again. Is Adam that good? He kicked the game winning field goals in two Super Bowls, and kicked four game winning field goals in the playoffs for you guys. In my opinion losing Adam was the biggest loss for the Pats this offseasson. I think Brady will now have more pressure on him in close games because he will not have the security of knowing that he has a kicker that can make the game winning kicks. I think Brady and BB will not be as confident in the new kicker, which will effect play calling Ect… I have a feeling that move will come back to haunt BB.

Ity's been 2+ yrs since he made one of those clutch kicks, even more since he kicked a gamewinner at home. As opposing fans used to point out, he never made one of those clutch kicks while behind, always when tied or ahead (expect for the 1st snowbowl kick, the best kick in NFL history). If he's the biggest loss, I can certainly live with that.

I am not sure if there will be a drop off in production or not. All I am saying is they lost Givens, Dwight, and Johnson, and replaced them with Jackson and Caldwell. Two guys that have not proven anything in the NFL. I don’t see how you can consider them an upgrade over guys you already know can play well.

They haven't replaced Givens in particular. What they need to do is replace the 50-60 receptions he had. That just isn't that difficult. I do not foresee Brady dropping back in vain, bemoaning the fact that Givens isn't coming across the middle, instead taking the sack. Lets say only half of the 30 come from Jackson, with another 15 from Caldwell, and an additional 40 from Thomas, Mills, & Maroney. Looks good to me!

You have to look at who they will be replacing. Jason Allen is the only rookie that I think will see significant playing time for the Dolphins. Although Allen may be a big part of our secondary, I am not counting on him to be a starter. Most of the upgrades for the Dolphins secondary came via free agency. We let Madison and Reggie Howard go, but we signed Will Allen, Renaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, and drafted Jason Allen. We also have some cb’s that are coming back from injury. We got rid of some weak links and added depth to the secondary. That is why most phinfans think our secondary will be better than last years.

Frankly, nobody is is shaking looking at that collection of DB's in the Fins secondary. Is that crew better than the Pats or Bills have on the field? I don't think so, and the secondary is the single weakest element of the Pats defense. It's the same for the Fins.

There is no reason why you can’t project the Pats picks to be successful, but when they are replacing guys that already were successful, I don’t think you can count them as an upgrade until they prove that they are. You can’t say Jackson is an upgrade over Givins because he has not played in an NFL game.

I don't disagree, ut BB has an amazing track record of puting units on the field that do the job. I'm hoping he's done that this year, but time will tell.

 

[Tailgater]

I think so. I can’t think of one kicker that I would rather have than Vinatieri. There is not a kicker that I know of that has been more clutch than Adam. I know of two games he won for you guys just last year. Specifically the game against Pittsburgh. Not many kickers can be counted on to hit a 40+ yard field goal for the win time and time again. Is Adam that good? He kicked the game winning field goals in two Super Bowls, and kicked four game winning field goals in the playoffs for you guys. In my opinion losing Adam was the biggest loss for the Pats this offseasson. I think Brady will now have more pressure on him in close games because he will not have the security of knowing that he has a kicker that can make the game winning kicks. I think Brady and BB will not be as confident in the new kicker, which will effect play calling Ect… I have a feeling that move will come back to haunt BB.

It's been 2+ yrs since he made one of those clutch kicks, even more since he kicked a gamewinner at home. As opposing fans used to point out, he never made one of those clutch kicks while behind, always when tied or ahead (expect for the 1st snowbowl kick, the best kick in NFL history). If he's the biggest loss, I can certainly live with that. BB obviously thought he was not worth the guaranteed money the Colts gave him. Time will tell if it was a good move by the Pats. For the Colts? Inside? Great move. They replaced the most accurate Kr in history with the most clutch kr in history. Thats 1 or 2 kicks a yr.

They haven't replaced Givens in particular. What they need to do is replace the 50-60 receptions he had. That just isn't that difficult. I do not foresee Brady dropping back in vain, bemoaning the fact that Givens isn't coming across the middle, instead taking the sack. Lets say only half of the 30 come from Jackson, with another 15 from Caldwell, and an additional 40 from Thomas, Mills, & Maroney. Looks good to me!

Frankly, nobody is is shaking looking at that collection of DB's in the Fins secondary. Is that crew better than the Pats or Bills have on the field? I don't think so, and the secondary is the single weakest element of the Pats defense. It's the same for the Fins.

I don't disagree, ut BB has an amazing track record of puting units on the field that do the job. I'm hoping he's done that this year, but time will tell.

 

[The New Guy]

It's been 2+ yrs since he made one of those clutch kicks, even more since he kicked a gamewinner at home. As opposing fans used to point out, he never made one of those clutch kicks while behind, always when tied or ahead (expect for the 1st snowbowl kick, the best kick in NFL history). If he's the biggest loss, I can certainly live with that. BB obviously thought he was not worth the guaranteed money the Colts gave him. Time will tell if it was a good move by the Pats. For the Colts? Inside? Great move. They replaced the most accurate Kr in history with the most clutch kr in history. Thats 1 or 2 kicks a yr

He kicked the game winners at Pittsburg and Atlanta just this past season. You may not feel that those were clutch kicks, but if the Pats lose those two games, they probably don’t make the playoffs. I am not one of the guys who ever talked bad about Vinetieri. You can’t knock a guy because he made the game winning kicks when the teams were tied. It is not like he missed the kicks when they were behind. When given the opportunity, he made the kicks. Over the last few years I always heard Pats fans talk about the incredible knack they have to beat the opposition in the clutch. I have seen it happen, the defense makes the stop, Brady gets the Pats into field goal range, and Adam makes the kick. Now a part of that is gone. I just think for a team that was $19 million under the cap, it was a bad move not to franchise him. We will see how he performs with the Colts. I think if they had him last year, you would have seen a different Super Bowl winner.

They haven't replaced Givens in particular. What they need to do is replace the 50-60 receptions he had. That just isn't that difficult. I do not foresee Brady dropping back in vain, bemoan the fact that Givens isn't coming across the middle, instead taking the sack. Lets say only half of the 30 come from Jackson, with another 15 from Caldwell, and an additional 40 from Thomas, Mills, & Maroney. Looks good to me!

Like you say, time will tell. I was just saying that I don’t think you can count guys who have not played on the NFL level as upgrades over a guy that has proven he can play well.

Frankly, nobody is shaking looking at that collection of DB's in the Fins secondary. Is that crew better than the Pats or Bills have on the field? I don't think so, and the secondary is the single weakest element of the Pats defense. It's the same for the Fins.

If I was a Pats fan, I would not be worried either. Did our secondary worry anyone last year? There is cause for optimism though. Daniels will have year under his belt, and with the free agent pickups, and guys that are coming back from injury, I think we will have a solid unit. I believe we have made more improvements over last year than the Pats. Also, Saban is a DB guy, so I think you will see them playing at a higher level this year.

 

[Tailgater]

He kicked the game winners at Pittsburg and Atlanta just this past season. You may not feel that those were clutch kicks, but if the Pats lose those two games, they probably don’t make the playoffs. I am not one of the guys who ever talked bad about Vinetieri. You can’t knock a guy because he made the game winning kicks when the teams were tied. It is not like he missed the kicks when they were behind. When given the opportunity, he made the kicks. Over the last few years I always heard Pats fans talk about the incredible knack they have to beat the opposition in the clutch. I have seen it happen, the defense makes the stop, Brady gets the Pats into field goal range, and Adam makes the kick. Now a part of that is gone. I just think for a team that was $19 million under the cap, it was a bad move not to franchise him. We will see how he performs with the Colts. I think if they had him last year, you would have seen a different Super Bowl winner.







Like you say, time will tell. I was just saying that I don’t think you can count guys who have not played on the NFL level as upgrades over a guy that has proven he can play well.





If I was a Pats fan, I would not be worried either. Did our secondary worry anyone last year? There is cause for optimism though. Daniels will have year under his belt, and with the free agent pickups, and guys that are coming back from injury, I think we will have a solid unit. I believe we have made more improvements over last year than the Pats. Also, Saban is a DB guy, so I think you will see them playing at a higher level this year.

OK, I give up! No kicker in history can ever replace AV! He is the god of kickers, who never, ever misses! It will cost the Pats the playoffs and at least 6 games this coming season. Lets overlook his increasingly limited range outdoors, the # of times the pats went for it on 4th & short last year, the average kickoffs, and the ridiculous money he's getting, etc, etc, etc. This is the one that brings down the Pats to the level of the Jets.

Also, I must now acknowledge the Pats will get nothing out of their new aquisitions, whether rookies or Fa pickups, (something that flies in the face of their past aquisitions). Now all of them will be Dwayne Starks-types. The loss of a kicker, a 34 yr old LB, and a decent #2 wr will be the downfall of the best qb, the best coach, and the best organization in football.

Anyone want my season tickets?

:D

 

[The New Guy]

The loss of a kicker, a 34 yr old LB, and a decent #2 wr will be the downfall of the best qb, the best coach, and the best organization in football.

You forgot to mention the losses of all world RT Tom Ashworth, super speedy WR Tim Dwight, shut down DB Tyrone Poole, and one of the best receiving tight ends of all time in Fauria. :D

OK, I give up! No kicker in history can ever replace AV! He is the god of kickers, who never, ever misses! It will cost the Pats the playoffs and at least 6 games this coming season. Lets overlook his increasingly limited range outdoors, the # of times the pats went for it on 4th & short last year, the average kickoffs, and the ridiculous money he's getting, etc, etc, etc. This is the one that brings down the Pats to the level of the Jets.

I know you were being sarcastic, but seriously though, I think some of the free agent losses give cause for concern. I think Adam was a big loss, and replacing him will not be easy. Limited range outdoors? Last year he kicked a 45 yarder in Carolina, a 48 yarder in pittsburg, and a 49 yard field goal against Miami at home. Those were outdoor stadiums. This is just my opinion, but I really think that they made a serious mistake letting him go. Who knows, in January, maybe at Gillette, it may well be Vinatieri hitting a field goal with time running out, which gives the Colts a win over the Patriots. :eek:

Also, I must now acknowledge the Pats will get nothing out of their new aquisitions, whether rookies or Fa pickups, (something that flies in the face of their past aquisitions). Now all of them will be Dwayne Starks-types.

I never said that the Pats will get nothing out of their free agent pickups or draft picks. They may turn out to be a solid group. I was just saying that right now, I do not think that you can consider them upgrades from proven guys like Vinetieri, Givens, and McGinest. All of my above comments stem from the statement you made about the the Pats having upgraded as much or nearly as much as the Fins. In my opinion, they have not. I do understand that the offseason is not over, and there is still time for that to change, but as of right now, I think the Phins did a much better job with the free agent pickups, and trades.

 

[Tailgater]

Adam did make some 40+ kicks outdoors, all in warm temps, mostly on turf. His game in Pittsburg was among his best as a pro. If only he could be counted on doing the same at Gillette. Either he or BB lost confidence in his doing so in Foxboro. Thats probably the single biggest reason he isn't a Patriot anymore. Blame BB. He likes to have the conditions at GIllette to be less than good. It's all about HFA.

Since I don't follow other teams as closely as some, can you tell me who left the fins, voluntarily or otherwise? I know of Madison, Seau, and Williams. Try to convince me that somehow Will Allen is a major improvement on Madison, (even though the Giants feel otherwise)? And the rookie Allen is supposed to be superior to Jones (even though Jones only played a few games for the fins)? A rook with medical issues? Good luck with that.

Replacing Williams with Sammy Morris is obviously a serious downgrade, particularly since Brown hasn't carried the load since high school at best. If Brown goes down, the Fins season is shot. Bet on it. Yet, somehow, the Fins have upgraded more than the Pats?! Dang! Never knew a kicker and a 34 yr old LB were so important.

Methinks you overvalue those that left the Pats, while at the same time discounting those that arrived. Can you give BB and Pioli any credit for past performance? I belive they are aware of just how much cap space they have. Some 'pundits' feel they've blown this offeseaon, maybe out of arrogance or or senility. It seems like you're in that camp. I guess they lose any credibility for not re-signing a kicker?

Opinions are great. In my case, my opinions mimic the actions of my teams front office. Thats proven to be incredibly succesful over the last 6 years. I'd put money on it that it will be closer to the truth yet again this year.

This post has been written by a complete BB apologist. :D

 

[RaiderCad]

Patriots-9-7

Dolphins-10-6(depending on Cupepper's health) if injured then patriots win it

bills and jets will go 3-13, 4-12

 

[The New Guy]

Adam did make some 40+ kicks outdoors, all in warm temps, mostly on turf. His game in Pittsburg was among his best as a pro. If only he could be counted on doing the same at Gillette. Either he or BB lost confidence in his doing so in Foxboro. Thats probably the single biggest reason he isn't a Patriot anymore. Blame BB. He likes to have the conditions at GIllette to be less than good. It's all about HFA.

Since you follow the Pats closer than I do, I will trust you. He did make a 49 yard field goal against Miami the last game of the season though. That was at Gillette.

Since I don't follow other teams as closely as some, can you tell me who left the fins, voluntarily or otherwise? I know of Madison, Seau, and Williams. Try to convince me that somehow Will Allen is a major improvement on Madison, (even though the Giants feel otherwise)? And the rookie Allen is supposed to be superior to Jones (even though Jones only played a few games for the fins)? A rook with medical issues? Good luck with that.

Let’s see, other than the Madison, Seau, and Williams there was QB Gus Frerotte (Rams), CB Reggie Howard (Panthers), OT Stockar McDougle (Jaguars), QB Sage Rosenfels (Texans), CB Kiwaukee Thomas, and Lance Schulters.

In my opinion, the only player we lost and have not replaced is Ricky, but with Brown having a year experience under his belt, I feel he can carry the load and be very successful. I think that Will Allen is an upgrade over Madison because Madison is not the same player he was a few years ago. Allen play has not been spectacular either, but since he is younger and faster, I consider him an upgrade. Saban is a DB guy so I believe he thinks Allen is capable of better play than Madison was. Since 2001 Will Allen has had 8 ints, and 51 passes defended and 265 tckls. Madison has had 39 passes defended, 10 ints , and 164 tckls. Madison gets a slight edge in the int’s, but every other stat goes to Allen. Plus Allen has dropped what should have been several ints. I think Saban can change that. Even if he can’t, I would rather a younger faster guy who can knock the ball down, than a guy who is slowing down. Jones was not really a factor for us last year so his loss was not a downgrade.

Allen is not the only reason why I think our secondary has been upgraded though. The addition of Renaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, and Jason Allen, as well as Poole coming back from injury and Daniels having a years experience is why I think we have upgraded our secondary.


I thought our O-line played pretty good in 05; I think the addition of Shelton at left tackle should make it even better.


Fred Beasley was definitely an upgrade at FB but our biggest upgrade came at the QB position. Culpepper and Harrington are for sure upgrades over Frerotte, and Rosenfels. Those two additions alone give the Dolphins an edge in upgrading teams.

There are also the addition of DC Dom Capers, and OC Mike Mularkey. Mularkey may not have been a good head coach, but I think he will be successful as OC for the Dolphins. Dom Capers was a big upgrade over last years DC Richard Smith.

Methinks you overvalue those that left the Pats, while at the same time discounting those that arrived.

How so? Do you really think that a rookie kicker is an upgrade over an all pro kicker? Do you feel that the combo of Reche Caldwell and Jackson is an upgrade over Givens, Dwight and Johnson? Do you think Beisel is an upgrade over Vrabel, who will be replacing McGinest? Mangini did a pretty good job as a first time DC, but will Dean Pees do as well?

I certainly do not know more than an NFL head coach and GM who has had great success over the last few years; but from my perspective, I feel the Dolphins have done a better job at upgrading their team. I guess that is why I am a Dolphins fan, and not a NFL GM. [FONT=&quot]

Although, if Matt Millen can still have a job as a GM, maybe I can get one too.
[/FONT]

 

[The New Guy]

Any Jets fans or Bills fans care to give their opinion. Who do you think has done a better job improving their team in the offseason so far? The Dolphins or the Pats? Do I have my homer glasses on when I say the Dolphins?

 

[Colorado Dolfan]

Replacing Williams with Sammy Morris is obviously a serious downgrade, particularly since Brown hasn't carried the load since high school at best. If Brown goes down, the Fins season is shot. Bet on it.

Granted Ricky is better than Sammy, however don't discount Morris. He averaged 4 yards/carry in 2004 with a crappy OL and a QB that no defenses respected. So better OL + QB with cannons + Beasley opening up the line= Morris doing a pretty damn good job if he has to... IMO, of course...:tongue:

Ronnie going down will be a blow, but I believe Morris will do just fine...

 

[MrTibbs]

BUMP BUMP BUMP




The ALL MIGHTY DOLPHINS well...............have the bite of a scruffy little poodle.

 

[MrTibbs]

:snooze: I hope the pats are in for a huge wake up call. Talk about a ****y article...
www.patriotsinsider.com:sidelol:

Hey, remember this article?

 

[JohnnyBravo]

Patriots Article

Hey, remember this article?

I remember the early discussion that it was some girl's blog, and was critiqued as an actual article.

I just checked, it doesn't look like she wrote anything since. Maybe she got scurred.

:eek:

Just goes to show you how off some preseason perspectives can be :shakeno:

But it does look like they're headed toward another Division title, unless Harrington can steer the ship in the right direction... which I think he can.

 

[MrTibbs]

unless Harrington can steer the ship in the right direction... which I think he can.

Ummmmm negative on that...................The MIAMI DOLPHINS ARE NOW ON THE CLOCK!