no to Mark Ingram? i will sacrifice a virgin if we draft him
say NO to Mark Ingram
- Thread starter dbogs
- Start date
RockyMtnPhinfan
Active Roster
It's widely known in this draft there is tons of depth in the RB class. There seems to be great value at this position even into the 5th round!!!
Why in the hell would we spend our 1st round pick on someone that, in the open field, looks ALOT like the last RB we drafted in the 1st round. I'm not saying i don't like the kid. He seems like an upstanding guy and has the tools to be good at the next level. But a 1st round pick IMO is insane for someone known NOT to hit the homerun in the open field.
If we draft him at 15 i will NOT do a dance. There are 10-12 guys in this class that look like they can contribute as much if not more than Ingram.
Why in the hell would we spend our 1st round pick on someone that, in the open field, looks ALOT like the last RB we drafted in the 1st round. I'm not saying i don't like the kid. He seems like an upstanding guy and has the tools to be good at the next level. But a 1st round pick IMO is insane for someone known NOT to hit the homerun in the open field.
If we draft him at 15 i will NOT do a dance. There are 10-12 guys in this class that look like they can contribute as much if not more than Ingram.
RockyMtnPhinfan
Active Roster
This is how i feel exactly. This is EXACTLY why i say we should take a QB at 15 instead of a RB.
And yes, the Packers didn't have a single drafted RB on their roster this season and won the superbowl. Again this proves my point that we need a QB at 15.
10 - 12 guys? Being a RB, a lot depends on the situation, the personnel and the scheme . . . but I can guarantee you that Mark Ingram is the clear #1 guy, and then there IMO is a pretty significant drop off. He IMO is atleast a round better than everybody else in this class.
Whether he can hit the homerun or not is a pretty moot point, he can find holes other RB's can't, meaning he may not break that long run as much as a Chris Johnson would, he probably is going to atleast be presented in that situation more often because he can set him self up. HIs 10 yard split was the best in this group, meaning his initial burst only compliments his versatility, strength and vision. It isn't fair to compare any back with him.
That is not to say in regards to "fantasy numbers" he will be the best back, hell Arian Foster had great numbers last year . . . doesn't mean I place him over the AP's, CJ's, MJD's and Frank Gore's of the league . . . Houston had a pretty explosive offense and a great scheme. Didn't Kubiak have a scheme that allowed no name runners in Denver be successful then the same backs failed on other teams?
My thing is, I'm just looking at #15, looking at who will be there and who won't, and it doesn't look great for Miami, not alot of viable options. Ingram fills a BIG hole and he is the best player . . . can't really get mad at that. We need a young playmaker on offense . . . when Ingram is making people miss and finding creases for us and trucking people over, we are all going to be excited for years to come. He is that good, don't look at the 40 time, doesn't take away from the numerous times I have seen him play.
If we can trade down, hey the Fins gotta do what they gotta do . . . but for a team that likes a safe pick in round 1 . . . Ingram would be real safe and real enjoyable for years to come.
---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
Can't argue that . . . gonna be interesting who is available when we are on the clock.
I would have no problem drafting Ingram if:
1. We don't like the QB's on the board, and we were unable to trade up for Newton.
2. We were unable to trade away our 1st this year for a 1st and 2nd next year.
3. We do not draft a QB in the later rounds.
If we're basically stuck with the QB's we have this year (it'd suck), we'd have to make a full-fledged blitz for one of the top guys next year. Ingram - especially going into his 2nd year - would be a huge aid to a rookie QB in 2012.
1. We don't like the QB's on the board, and we were unable to trade up for Newton.
2. We were unable to trade away our 1st this year for a 1st and 2nd next year.
3. We do not draft a QB in the later rounds.
If we're basically stuck with the QB's we have this year (it'd suck), we'd have to make a full-fledged blitz for one of the top guys next year. Ingram - especially going into his 2nd year - would be a huge aid to a rookie QB in 2012.
I would be all for trading back a few spots, still picking up Ingram and getting a 2nd next year. Just looking at a preview of next years class, that thing is loaded at QB and ILB. Crowder is in the final year of his deal and so is Henne . . . we can set ourselves up rather nicely for a QB in round 1 and a ILB in round 2. Have Ingram in his 2nd season with Marshall . . . would give us a nice nucleus in 2012.
Then again I'm all for a QB this year also, it doesn't really matter, just kind of tired of the lineman picks early. I couldn't be mad at Ingram at 15. I mean there are 8 teams in front of us that legitimately need QB, if all those teams pass on a QB, that has to mean something about those QB's. I know most people would jump off the boat if Mallet/Locker/Gabbert/Newton were all at 15 and we passed . . . but seriously, what does that say about those guys if that were to happen?
I dunno, Ingram is very high character, just seems like an ideal fit for a team losing their to 3 RB's from last season. But a QB is a QB, and if they like a QB, by all means take that guy.
RockyMtnPhinfan
Active Roster
I honestly don't believe Ingram is going to be "trucking over" a lot of NFL players at his weight. I guess i just get the feeling it's Ronnie Brown 2.0
My want for a QB at 15 taints my ability to appreciate a RB that high. If we can get a QB at 15 and then two good RB's in the later rounds that will produce for us i feel like it's a win win.
Minnphin
I need a Mojito
I absolutely understand that. Which is why I think we need to do everything possible to get a QB. Until we do, we're just treading water. I mean, what's the best case scenario if we take Ingram? He turns into Adrian Peterson (Great RB, crappy QB play, 6-10, 23rd ranked offense)? Chris Johnson (Great RB, crappy QB play, 6-10, 27th ranked offense)? Bet the farm on a QB, do what it takes to get him, and find a RB in the middle rounds. That's how you win in the NFL. Nothing saying the RB is going to be average talent either. Here are the RB's taken in rounds 2-4 over the course of the last 3 years.
Established quality NFL running backs (career stats listed)
LeSean McCoy –362 carries, 1717 yards, a 4.7 ypc, and 11 TD’s, 118 receptions, 900 yards, 2 TD’s
Shonn Greene – 293 carries, 1306 yards, 4.5 ypc, 4 TD’s, 16 receptions, 120 yards
Matt Forte – 811 carries, 3236 yards, 4.0 ypc, 18 TD’s, 171 receptions, 1495 yards, 7 TD’s
Ray Rice – 668 carries,3013 yards, 4.5 ypc, 12 TD’s, 174 receptions, 1531 yards, 2 TD’s
Kevin Smith – 422 carries, 1551 yards, 3.7 ypc, 10 TD’s, 68 receptions, 617 yards, 1 TD
Jamal Charles – 487 carries, 2944 yards, 6.0 ypc, 12 TD’s, 112 receptions, 1037 yards, 5 TD’s
Steve Slaton – 418 carries, 1812 yards, 4.3 ypc, 12 TD’s, 97 receptions, 805 yards, 5 TD’s
Tashard Choice – 222 carries, 1064 yards, 4.8 ypc, 8 TD’s, 53 receptions, 426 yards
Promising young backs stuck behind established quality NFL backs (starts listed)
Toby Gerhart - 1 start, 16 carries, 77 yards, 4.8 ypc, 3 receptions, 18 yards
Joe McKnight – 1 start, 32 carries, 158 yards, 4.9 ypc, 2 receptions, 15 yards
Mike Goodson – 3 starts, 59 carries, 275 yards, 4.7 ypc, 1 TD, 16 receptions, 125 yards
Can’t say as of yet because of injury
Ben Tate - Was expected to compete with Arian Foster for Texans starting job before suffering a severe ankle injury in the preseason and being lost for the entire regular season.
Montario Hardesty - After an offseason that drew a lot of praise in Cleveland, had all but won the starting job before suffering a torn ACL in the preseason
Busts
Glen Coffee - 2 starts, 36 carries, 119 yards, 3.3 ypc, 1 TD, 8 receptions, 53 yards, no telling what he might have become had he not retired at the age of 23
Andre Brown – 4 teams in 2 years after rupturing Achilles in preseason of rookie year.
Gartrell Johnson – 3 teams in 2 years. Done nothing.
LOTS of talent there. If we get Ingram, I'll be fully behind him and he'll have my support. I just think that until we get better qb play, no matter how good our running back is, we'll be floating around .500 hoping to sneak into the playoffs.
Ingram is about as surefire as it gets for a draft prospect. Everything he does screams NFL success. As a prospect, I like him better than Adrian Peterson (when he was coming out). I think Ingram's running style actually lends itself well to staying healthy in the pros - whereas Peterson's obviously does not. Ingram's also much better with the football, and I like him a good deal better as a receiver out of the backfield. Dude's a stud, and I think that hoops is right to have him as a top-5 BPA if you're talking about his ability at his position alone. If you grade top-5 BPA in a way that takes into account the value of the position . . . well, that's why he might be available when we draft. If he were a QB of similar talent, you'd be talking about an Andrew Luck type prospect.
I can respect that, this regime does need to bite the bullet and draft a first round QB . . . probably should have done it in 2008, though I have my doubts that Matt Ryan would be as "heralded" as he is now under Henning/Lee. Some people think the extension gives them the chance to draft a QB at 15, I think they feel they are good enough to aspire for playoff dreams this season and maybe a first round QB isn't the best route and Ingram in all likelyhood gives them the best chance to help them win today. Just my opinion, I could be completely wrong and Ross has ensured them he wants a first round QB . . . Miami is one of the harder teams to figure out but in the end they seemingly go back to basics (lineman) which I wouldn't like. When I look at a safe pick, a pick that will help us win today and fills one of the 2 biggest holes on the team (QB being the other) . . . Ingram screams "Draft me Miami".
The biggest "problem" I see with drafting a first round QB is . . . A. A good chance that pick doesn't help this team improve this season B. The lackluster season results in terminating the regime C. The new regime doesn't like the QB selection from this year and drafts another guy in the first round of a "deeper" QB class.
Ingram would be a big piece going forward, whether with this regime or the next one. Drafting Ingram and coming back next year with potentially Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley or a number of guys would be beneficial to this team going forward. And the elephant in the room is still present with Henne/Daboll . . . yea I know it isn't exciting . . . and maybe they prove their incompitence this year, but that only aids us in getting that franchise QB in 2012. Maybe they surpise us a bit, who knows . . . Henne does have a great work ethic and he has talent . . . sometimes the right mix of OC/QB can be the difference between 7-9 and 11-5 . . . god knows with a decent defense in 2009 and better playcalling in 2010 . . . we could have achieved that record, in spite of Henne and his struggles.
Ronnie was over valued at #2 overall, no question . . . he was a first round prospect, no question . . . 4.4 speed, 230 lbs . . . solid in pass pro and a good receiver . . . but Ingram is the superior player and he can be possibly had at 15. Ingram has the vision Ronnie doesn't. Alot of people get down on Ronnie . . . which I can understand because he always finds a way to get hurt, but the guy unquestionably has given us the most excitement on offense since Ricky's 2002/2003 seasons. Ironically, both guys are RB's and both were high first round picks. We are talking about a guy in 2007 who didn't even get much action the first 2 games . . . and still after 7 games was on pace for 2500 yards combine rushing/receiving. Once he wen't down . . . we threw Chatman, Cobbs, Gado and every other scrap pile RB in the system and they couldn't do the things Ronnie was doing. He does dance more now, and maybe that has to do with the injuries, but if Ronnie would have avoided the freak injuries, who knows what light this guy would be in.
Ingram definitely can "truck" over guys, he can make people miss, he can hold up in pass protection, he can catch the ball out of the back field, he has the "burst" you look for in a RB, the strength in his legs is incredible and the vision is elite. He also has the durability and the film to back all this up as a 3 down back, something Ronnie didn't have. I wouldn't get discouraged at a 4.62 time.
Ironically, I think the Bama Pro Day is today, I wonder if Ingram runs . . . and if he does, don't be suprised if he lowers that time . . . though it won't matter to me, as I have seen enough of him to know he is a great fit for this team . . . but it will also prove that a 40 time means more to alot of people than film when/if people start jumping back on the bandwagon if he puts up a sub 4.5 . . . and that just shouldn't be the case.
The only thing that excites me about Rbs is breakaway runs, and Ingram lacks breakaway speed. Other than that, we need RBs who can get 4-5 yards a pop consistently, and to do that there a quite are a few patient runners with burst later. I would not spend a 1st rounder on a RB. There are other positions that are not as strong in later rounder that should be addressed in the first, starting with Mallett.
By all means, I know that an offense starts with it's QB. That being said, I really don't like any of the QB's available for this year's draft and I don't see a quality NFL starter in any of them.
I think we can somewhat agree that Henne does have the talent and the arm there just seems to be something off between the ears. I'm willing to see Henne give it another shot under a new OC and hopefully better coaching. If it doesn't pan out then take a stab at a much better QB class in next year's draft.
As it's been stated, this year's draft is heralded with having quality depth at the RB position. So why not draft the RB that is head and shoulders (maybe even a full torso) better than his quality competition (Mark Ingram). And sorry RockyMtnPhinfan, There are NOT 10-12 guys in this class that look like they can contribute as much if not more than Ingram. Ingram will be a special back. 10-12 RB's in this class will not be special. Maybe one other and doubtfully two, but that's more of a gamble to choose which one in the later rounds. Ingram is a surefire pick.
I think we can somewhat agree that Henne does have the talent and the arm there just seems to be something off between the ears. I'm willing to see Henne give it another shot under a new OC and hopefully better coaching. If it doesn't pan out then take a stab at a much better QB class in next year's draft.
As it's been stated, this year's draft is heralded with having quality depth at the RB position. So why not draft the RB that is head and shoulders (maybe even a full torso) better than his quality competition (Mark Ingram). And sorry RockyMtnPhinfan, There are NOT 10-12 guys in this class that look like they can contribute as much if not more than Ingram. Ingram will be a special back. 10-12 RB's in this class will not be special. Maybe one other and doubtfully two, but that's more of a gamble to choose which one in the later rounds. Ingram is a surefire pick.
Pachyderm_Wave
Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 15,323
- Reaction score
- 13,905
Mark Ingram was told he ran 4.47/4.53 (unofficial) during his two runs at Bama's pro day...
Yea I knew he would run faster . . . 4.47 . . . real good job from Mark, hopefully a team doesn't go diving ahead of us now.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
- Messages
- 9,117
- Reaction score
- 7,353