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Slimm's 2017 Offensive Line (Seniors)

I've looked at Ben Braden before, as a tackle. He was...OK. You could see the potential. But he wasn't necessarily putting it all on the field.

I've just been focusing solely on the stretch of games (UCF, Colorado, Penn State, Wisconsin, Rutgers) where he moved inside to LG.

That was a revelation.

Would not surprise me in the slightest if he ends up the best guard from this draft. His potential as a guard is immense. Can't be overstated.

I have him as my 4th OG, with only Lamp, Johnson, and Feeney ranked ahead of Braden (agree with Slimm that Dawkins and Moton should be ranked ahead of him, but I like them as OT's - particularly Dawkins).

His combo of brute force and speed definitely gives him a high ceiling. Good call. I kind of doubt that Braden will be there when Miami drafts in the 5th, but if he is available, Miami should jump on that. If Miami spent a 3rd on him, I wouldn't complain.
 
I have him as my 4th OG, with only Lamp, Johnson, and Feeney ranked ahead of Braden (agree with Slimm that Dawkins and Moton should be ranked ahead of him, but I like them as OT's - particularly Dawkins).

His combo of brute force and speed definitely gives him a high ceiling. Good call. I kind of doubt that Braden will be there when Miami drafts in the 5th, but if he is available, Miami should jump on that. If Miami spent a 3rd on him, I wouldn't complain.

The way I see it, he plays at Michigan, and he's been playing for years, captain at the bowl game and all that. He's known. His tapes are against high quality opponents. He blew out the Combine and looked good in the drills even aside. If this guy is available at 97 overall then even that would be a surprise to me, and if you pass there because you're hoping to get him in the 5th round then I just don't think that's going to happen.

He shares traits with Billy Turner as a prospect out of NDSU, in a good way. But there are some pretty big differences.

First off he's bigger at 6062 & 329 lbs versus Turner being 6047 & 315 lbs. Same arm length, similar wing span, but Braden is flat out bigger. Turner was definitely pudgier too, this guy just looks like a massive grown man with "heavy bone girth" as Bill Walsh would put it.

Second, Braden is faster. He ran a 5.04 official with 1.78 unofficial ten yard split. Turner ran a 5.16 official with 1.82 official ten yard split (1.86 unofficial). Braden's ten yard split is 15th percentile over the last ten years, and Mock Draftable has his forty as 8th percentile.

Third is the obvious, you had Billy Turner putting together attractive tape at North Dakota State University against the South Dakota State Jackrabbits and the the Southern Illinois Salukis. And he was playing next to guys who never got a sniff at the next level. His shining moment was against Kansas State, and I'm not sure anyone on that defense even got a cup of coffee in the NFL. So when you see Billy Turner looking head and shoulders above the crowd on tape, keep in mind it was a vertically challenged crowd.

Ben Braden plays at Michigan, his tapes at LG are against UCF, Colorado, Penn State, Wisconsin, Rutgers. He has other tapes at LT against the likes of Florida State, Ohio State, Illinois, Michigan State, Maryland, and Iowa. He has 2015 tape at RT against a bunch of good opponents. And he's also playing with guys who will go pro like Kyle Kalis, Erik Magnuson. Mason Cole will be a pro in 2018 and is in fact NFLDS's top rated Center for that year. Ben Bredeson is the guy who came in for Braden at LG during some of the games, and played LG while Braden moved to LT, and Bredeson was a 4-star recruit who got All Big 12 Honorable Mention as a freshman. Already NFLDS has him as the 2nd best guard for 2020.

When you stand out on tape in THAT crowd, it's different. And in particular looking at Braden playing the position and then watching Ben Bredeson come onto the field in his place, the drop-off was DRAMATIC. And I don't mean to pick on the Freshman All-American, but it wasn't close. Braden made Bredeson look kind of pathetic by comparison.

Another big difference between he and Billy Turner is that Turner never got a look at guard while at NDSU. You never got to see that tape, as an evaluator. Even at the Senior Bowl he played right tackle. You were left guessing about the projection, and there were certain weaknesses in Turner's game (tendency to play too upright, hand placement, foot discipline) which were particularly problematic in a theorized move to guard, so that tape would have been very useful. Ben Braden got moved to left guard for five games, so you've seen how his strengths and weaknesses interact with the demands of the position. We never got to see that with Turner until it was too late.

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to Braden's profile and the potential which is tied to the strength and speed combo. It's tied to the fact that he's got vicious and brutally powerful drive blocking ability on tape, and then you turn around and he's showing off high end lateral movement skills on tape, and then you get him on the pull and it's like holy cow that dude can run. And he doesn't just run in a straight line; he improvises on the move. If there's a thing that you have to find out about him, it's pass pro. I know that he let up 2 sacks, 5 hits and 13 hurries in 2016, but he played 7 games at left tackle versus 5 games at left guard, so in which games he allowed what is relevant. Based on what I've seen, not many of those data points happened in those games. But there are times his hand placement is off, or he freezes his feet. There are times he's too high. He's not a technician yet.

This is what brings me back to the similarities with Billy Turner. You knew Billy Turner could run, you knew he could move laterally, you knew he was powerful and strong (or at least, he looked that way at the FCS level). But you also knew he could play a bit upright, that his feet could get lazy, that his hand placement was raw. These things made pass pro a question. But you knew his run blocking would be amazing at times. And indeed, at the pro level, it was.

Ultimately what sank Billy Turner in Miami was a lack of professionalism. He had, "issues". I'll leave it there. I don't know much about Ben Braden. He seems intelligent, thoughtful, but so did Turner.

Braden was a captain for Michigan's bowl game which I think is meaningful. When he showed up at Michigan he was 6'6" and 322 lbs with only 12 percent body fat. Taylor Lewan said, "Genetically, he's a freak. That's how it is. He's unbelievable. He's the most physically gifted individual I've ever seen in my life." You can't get that lean at that size without working at it. He was a standout left wing in hockey at 6'6" and 315 lbs, scoring 28 goals in a season.
 
Ben Braden is easily Michigan's best offensive lineman in my estimation, and that's a pretty good offensive line. I have no issue putting him above Moton as closely as I have em graded anyway.
 
Very nice work.

In the last video, you may want to tell the guy on Twitter it only results in a hold if Braden stops moving his feet. He kept his feet moving and that's what kept the flag in the ref's pocket. Pretty textbook, and how Joe Pendry used to coach it.

I remember Alabama's offensive line went the entire season without a single holding call before he retired.
 
Very nice work.

In the last video, you may want to tell the guy on Twitter it only results in a hold if Braden stops moving his feet. He kept his feet moving and that's what kept the flag in the ref's pocket. Pretty textbook, and how Joe Pendry used to coach it.

I remember Alabama's offensive line went the entire season without a single holding call before he retired.

Jesus. The whole season??

Thank you. I was trying to tell the guy that to me it's not a hold because his right shoulder stayed inside the DT's frame until the very end, when he let go to avoid the flag. I didn't think about the fact he kept his feet moving. That makes a lot of sense. I guess some people are also tempted to say that Braden got "beat" on the play. Personally I don't think so, given what that DT and the rest of the DL were trying to do on that play. I think Braden had a tough assignment and he managed it. But I could see others disagreeing.
 
The DL is trying to get both hips fully into the gap there, once he was able to do that...yes Braden was beat inside. If Braden stops his feet, the DL continues upfield with the OL's arm around his neck almost in a clothesline fashion. Resulting in a holding call most likely. His other option if he stops his feet is just to let him go. Neither good outcomes for the offense.

By keeping his feet moving he's able to maintain a perpendicular relationship with the DL and keep him from reaching his inside shoulder. It's hard for a ref to throw laundry there. Although a more talented DL could have potentially forced a hold there.

Our oline got beat plenty in similar fashion that year, but Pendry coached em so well on how to deal with getting beat by quick, strong, and talented SEC defensive lineman. We had a pretty talented oline too that year with Barrett Jones, Chance Warmack, Anthony Steen, D.J. Fluker, and Cyrus Kouandjio.
 
I wanted to get your view on something, Ted. Miami has invested quite a few high draft choices in offensive linemen over the past 7 drafts. They have used 1st round picks on Mike Pouncey, Ja'Wuan James, and Laremy Tunsil; 3rd round picks on John Jerry, Dallas Thomas, and Billy Turner; and a 4th round pick on Jamil Douglas.

So, the question is, were these evaluation misses, or was the issue more coaching related? Because when you invest as many high picks on OL yet still have a bad OL, something is amiss.
 
I wanted to get your view on something, Ted. Miami has invested quite a few high draft choices in offensive linemen over the past 7 drafts. They have used 1st round picks on Mike Pouncey, Ja'Wuan James, and Laremy Tunsil; 3rd round picks on John Jerry, Dallas Thomas, and Billy Turner; and a 4th round pick on Jamil Douglas.

So, the question is, were these evaluation misses, or was the issue more coaching related? Because when you invest as many high picks on OL yet still have a bad OL, something is amiss.


First of all I think it's an excellent question, and one that Miami should've asked themselves and figured out the answer to a while back. My opinion is that it's split pretty equal between poor coaching and misevaluation. Although I'd lean more towards poor coaching.

Miami has selected a few offensive lineman that I was fairly high on coming out of college that didn't work out. John Jerry and Jamil Douglas being two that really stick out to me. I think John Jerry is still in the league and getting paid, so there's that.

Jamil Douglas received some pretty poor coaching. I remember when Miami had him playing center, a position I wouldn't have projected him playing. Secondly, I remember LeCharles Bentley putting out a scathing criticism of the coaching he was receiving, and pointing out how his fundamentals and basics were extremely off due to the poor coaching he was getting in Miami.

Dallas Thomas was such an athletic player that he should've been functional at the very least. But we all know he was always the complete opposite. He had talent, he just couldn't play football. It simply didn't translate to the field for whatever reason. The problem was they already knew that and still kept sending him out there.

James was a kid I liked and always disagreed with the notion that he was a reach in the 1st round. However, if you go back and look at my offensive line thread for the 2014 draft, the OL I really like from Tennessee that year was Zach Fulton. He lasted until the 6th round that year, won a starting job for the Chiefs in training camp as a rookie, and has been a fixture on their offensive line ever since. I can't fathom why a team like Miami didn't draft him. Furthermore, even if they had selected him, I have to wonder if he would be the player he is in KC due to poor coaching.

I just think it's a combination of both poor coaching and misevaluation for Miami. Tunsil I felt was the best player in the draft and a no brainier pick for Miami once he fell. It just seems to me like Miami makes it a point to over-invest high picks along the oline as a way to offset their inability to evaluate and coach em up properly.

That said, it's why I think a kid like Forrest Lamp makes a lot of sense for Miami. There's no doubt in my mind he can be a 10 year starter in the NFL. Not even Miami can screw him up. He already knows how to play, and play at a high level. They can stick him at LG and not have to worry about the left side of their oline for the next decade with him and Tunsil.
 
First of all I think it's an excellent question, and one that Miami should've asked themselves and figured out the answer to a while back. My opinion is that it's split pretty equal between poor coaching and misevaluation. Although I'd lean more towards poor coaching.

Miami has selected a few offensive lineman that I was fairly high on coming out of college that didn't work out. John Jerry and Jamil Douglas being two that really stick out to me. I think John Jerry is still in the league and getting paid, so there's that.

Jamil Douglas received some pretty poor coaching. I remember when Miami had him playing center, a position I wouldn't have projected him playing. Secondly, I remember LeCharles Bentley putting out a scathing criticism of the coaching he was receiving, and pointing out how his fundamentals and basics were extremely off due to the poor coaching he was getting in Miami.

Dallas Thomas was such an athletic player that he should've been functional at the very least. But we all know he was always the complete opposite. He had talent, he just couldn't play football. It simply didn't translate to the field for whatever reason. The problem was they already knew that and still kept sending him out there.

James was a kid I liked and always disagreed with the notion that he was a reach in the 1st round. However, if you go back and look at my offensive line thread for the 2014 draft, the OL I really like from Tennessee that year was Zach Fulton. He lasted until the 6th round that year, won a starting job for the Chiefs in training camp as a rookie, and has been a fixture on their offensive line ever since. I can't fathom why a team like Miami didn't draft him. Furthermore, even if they had selected him, I have to wonder if he would be the player he is in KC due to poor coaching.

I just think it's a combination of both poor coaching and misevaluation for Miami. Tunsil I felt was the best player in the draft and a no brainier pick for Miami once he fell. It just seems to me like Miami makes it a point to over-invest high picks along the oline as a way to offset their inability to evaluate and coach em up properly.

That said, it's why I think a kid like Forrest Lamp makes a lot of sense for Miami. There's no doubt in my mind he can be a 10 year starter in the NFL. Not even Miami can screw him up. He already knows how to play, and play at a high level. They can stick him at LG and not have to worry about the left side of their oline for the next decade with him and Tunsil.

So, I guess the million dollar question for Miami is whether Chris Foerester is the guy that can coach up young pups like Jamil Douglas and allow Miami to focus their higher draft picks on other positions?
 
Came in here to read about Eric Smith, and I'm seeing even more Ben Braden talk.. he's still out there undrafted, hope we could get him still. We would have 3 solid OL additons
 
Came in here to read about Eric Smith, and I'm seeing even more Ben Braden talk.. he's still out there undrafted, hope we could get him still. We would have 3 solid OL additons

Trust me. Teams know about him. If he's still out there, something rotten is in the state of Denmark.
 
Funny, I was going to come talk about Braden too. I have Googled him daily since Saturday and have found nothing. This is quite the mystery.

You'd think Miami would have been a heck of an opportunity for a good interior line prospect.
 
Alex Kelley (C for Colorado) got a tryout with SF! I was good friends with his brother, and I remember Alex when he was about 7. His chances of making it are low, but I'm rooting for him. Super nice family.
 
Funny, I was going to come talk about Braden too. I have Googled him daily since Saturday and have found nothing. This is quite the mystery.

You'd think Miami would have been a heck of an opportunity for a good interior line prospect.

Some people don't really WANT football. Take two prospects I also liked, or at least WOULD have liked, in Jake Replogle and Johnny Caspers. They just...quit. They were good at football, could have had a go in the NFL, and just quit. I'm sensing that may be what's going on with Braden.
 
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