this would have been tannehill's breakout season | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

this would have been tannehill's breakout season

<O> said:
I'm asking that people consider the following possibility.

Take the following hypothetical passer rating numbers, for example:

With the Dolphins' Injured Offensive Line from 2013-2016
Ryan Tannehill: 88
Aaron Rodgers: 105
Matt Ryan: 100
Tom Brady: 99

With the Dolphins' Fully Healthy Offensive Line from 2013-2016
Ryan Tannehill: 101
Aaron Rodgers: 117
Matt Ryan: 112
Tom Brady: 111

Of course nobody knows whether those would be the actual figures, but my point above in the thread is that it doesn't sound like anyone is considering the possibility, either, or even anything analogous.

Rather, it's as if Tannehill enjoys an improvement in his own play as a function of the improvement of his offensive line, that no other QB in the NFL would enjoy, and that every other QB would play at Tannehill's level or worse with Tannehill's injured line.

In other words, Tannehill is being looked at in this regard in isolation, rather than as how he would compare to the other QBs in the league.
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I just want to make sure that you for once watch some actual football plays instead of getting too caught up in your numbers thing that you're doing here.

Exhibit A: Non-existent pass protection
https://m.imgur.com/0uPg2fN

Exhibit B: see Exhibit A
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/UnderPressure/UnderPressure-120514-8.gif

And then there is Exhibit C: Pass Protection
https://media.profootballfocus.com/2016/11/Brady-on-the-Run.gif

Just in case you can't spot the difference, let me know. I'll gladly help.
 
Spiff said:
I just want to make sure that you for once watch some actual football plays instead of getting too caught up in your numbers thing that you're doing here.

Exhibit A: Non-existent pass protection
https://m.imgur.com/0uPg2fN

Exhibit B: see Exhibit A
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/UnderPressure/UnderPressure-120514-8.gif

And then there is Exhibit C: Pass Protection
https://media.profootballfocus.com/2016/11/Brady-on-the-Run.gif

Just in case you can't spot the difference, let me know. I'll gladly help.
Click to expand...


The questions here, however, are 1) how well-protected are QBs throughout the league, and 2) how much of an improvement in QB performance is associated with better protection?

No one is answering those questions with any precision. Instead it's simply thought that Tannehill "would be one of the best QBs in the league with a better offensive line," when that isn't necessarily the case.

Number one, Tannehill may not improve to that level with better offensive line play, and number two, if every QB in the league enjoyed a similar improvement in their offensive line play, Tannehill's improvement per se could make him no better than average in comparison to the other QBs in the league.

The numbers I posted above indicate how that could possibly work with regard to Tannehill, in comparison to some other QBs. How do you know it wouldn't work that way?
 
<O> said:
The questions here, however, are 1) how well-protected are QBs throughout the league, and 2) how much of an improvement in QB performance is associated with better protection?

No one is answering those questions with any precision. Instead it's simply thought that Tannehill "would be one of the best QBs in the league with a better offensive line," when that isn't necessarily the case.

Number one, Tannehill may not improve to that level with better offensive line play, and number two, if every QB in the league enjoyed a similar improvement in their offensive line play, Tannehill's improvement per se could make him no better than average in comparison to the other QBs in the league.

The numbers I posted above indicate how that could possibly work with regard to Tannehill, in comparison to some other QBs. How do you know it wouldn't work that way?
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Again, who are the coaches for these teams/QBs? Their staff and systems are very important information.

You're expecting "precise" answers based off hypotheticals. Good luck with that.
 
none of these quarterbacks have had injured offensive lineman?
 
Sons Of Shula said:
Again, who are the coaches for these teams/QBs? Their staff and systems are very important information.
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I understand your point and don't disagree with it. However, one could extrapolate the numbers I posted above to any number of surrounding variables. Take the following hypothetical passer rating numbers, for example:

With the Least Ideal Surroundings Known in the League
Ryan Tannehill: 88
Aaron Rodgers: 105
Matt Ryan: 100
Tom Brady: 99

With the Most Ideal Surroundings Known in the League
Ryan Tannehill: 101
Aaron Rodgers: 117
Matt Ryan: 112
Tom Brady: 111

So obviously if that were actual reality, the only attribution one could logically make is that those other QBs are simply better players. Is that not how you see the league functioning? Or do you see it in such a way that players' surroundings drive the bus on their individual play, and numbers like those above wouldn't be the case? In the two situations above (least ideal and most ideal), Tannehill would play just as well as the other three?
 
I'm not playing stupid games with your silly hypotheticals. Post facts or expect the irrelevance to be ignored. That's why I edited it out the first time.
 
Sons Of Shula said:
I'm not playing stupid games with your silly hypotheticals. Post facts or expect the irrelevance to be ignored. That's why I edited it out the first time.
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The question is whether you see players' own talent as driving the bus on their individual play, or whether you see their surroundings as driving the bus on it.

Skip the hypotheticals. The question still remains.
 
<O> said:
The question is whether you see players' own talent as driving the bus on their individual play, or whether you see their surroundings as driving the bus on it.

Skip the hypotheticals. The question still remains.
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What's with all this bus talk?




Football is the ultimate team game. An individual and their talent is greatly effected by the talent/coaching/system that surround them.
 
Sons Of Shula said:
Football is the ultimate team game. An individual and their talent is greatly effected by the talent/coaching/system that surround them.
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Football can be the ultimate team game in terms of how teams function, but how players function individually can be determined more by their individual talent than by their surroundings, nonetheless.

The question here is whether players' individual functioning is determined more by their own talent or by their surroundings.
 
An individual's production is greatly effected by their coach and team.
 
SCLSU Mud Dogs said:
And same with last year and the year before. Six years in and he's a good quarterback, but has done nothing of note in his career.
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tanehill-ryan-jersey-2015.jpg
 
Sons Of Shula said:
An individual's production is greatly effected by their coach and team.
Click to expand...


What I year you saying there is "both" (individual talent and surroundings), and so the question then becomes what kind of surroundings the Dolphins are likely to amass, and what that would do to Tannehill's play.

Obviously what you'd want ideally is a QB who can play very well even among average-level surroundings, since average-level surroundings are the most likely kind a team will have.

You don't want to be in the position, conversely, in which you need surroundings that are so good they aren't likely to be amassed, to get a QB to play at only a slightly above-average level.
 
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