We Are a Terrible Screen Pass Team | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

We Are a Terrible Screen Pass Team

Trade Viper said:
Well, here is what I saw Monday night, the running back was looking at the QB the whole time, I mean feet going one way and head turned backwards, gazing at the QB. I don't know, but is that how it should be done??

And then the almighty worm burner, a thing of Beauty I tell you.

Oh and remember the Thurmond Thomas screens, yeeeesssss and how easily the mighty Dolphin D stopped them every time ????? It was Yuuuuuuge as I remember.

The Ever Finally Waking UP VIPER
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Thomas had like 4,500 yards in screen passes against us in the one playoff game...think it was '91? Olivadotti reacted by adjusting the D to deal with it a little slowly - like two seasons later.

I like RB screens in the right circumstances. They are usually delayed and rely on getting the D upfield past the RB with OLine in position to block. I hate the WR Bubble screen.
 
TheWozz said:
Thomas had like 4,500 yards in screen passes against us in the one playoff game...think it was '91? Olivadotti reacted by adjusting the D to deal with it a little slowly - like two seasons later.

I like RB screens in the right circumstances. They are usually delayed and rely on getting the D upfield past the RB with OLine in position to block. I hate the WR Bubble screen.
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Particularly with Stills blocking
 
Because our blocking is terrible on offense and we can't shed blocks on defense. We are really bad at blocking and tackling a cross the board. Tells me that the players don't play hard and don't care about winning. Just getting paid to act like they care.
 
Look how good Carolina blocked the screen plays. Those guys are good players. Cam Newton laughed at our defense and they didn't fight back. It was embarrassing for our defense.
 
in terms of strictly personnel Kenny stills and qb ball placement the two biggest culprits this year...3rd on the list would be Julius Thomas who blocks in space like a finesse flex but it's not on the eye sore level of stills or the qb shoulder placement
 
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Screen passes are a very poor investment. I emphasized that almost immediately upon joining this site in 2005. They are romanticized plays by fans, because it's so satisfying to believe you've won the chess match.

I haven't looked at the NFL1000 stuff but I worked for a stats company in Las Vegas nearly 20 years ago that charted every type of play and by situation. It confirmed what I'd always known, that screens were low percentage plays across the board. Only on second down could you make a minimal case for them. As I've often mentioned, the stats office would break out into group laughter when a team tried a screen pass on third down against a competent opponent. Invariably it is destroyed. As a Canes fan I screamed when Miami somehow brainstormed a 3rd and 10 screen against Ohio State in that famous title game. The Buckeyes had obliterated screens all season. This time they wiped out the play and shredded Willis McGahee's knee in the process.

We used to have specific parameters for what qualified as a screen pass. I'm not sure if NFL1000 uses similar guidelines.

Screens work in declining percentage the higher the level of football you reach. Attend high school games and it's commonplace for simple screen passes to ramble 70 or 80 yards. That running back is so superior he makes everyone look stupid in the open field. In college football screens work well in those early season home non-conference games against stiffs and some coordinators fail to recognize the dramatic difference once it's conference games against similar talent.

It should be fairly self explanatory that NFL defenses won't often allow cheap first downs via careful calls behind the line of scrimmage. Make those calls too often and it's an example of not adequately respecting your opposition. These days I think too many young coordinators advance up the ladder quickly and still envision all the prancing touchdowns via screen passes that they called at lower levels of the sport.
 
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Awsi Dooger said:
Screen passes are a very poor investment. I emphasized that almost immediately upon joining this site in 2005. They are romanticized plays by fans, because it's so satisfying to believe you've won the chess match.

I haven't looked at the NFL1000 stuff but I worked for a stats company in Las Vegas nearly 20 years ago that charted every type of play and by situation. It confirmed what I'd always known, that screens were low percentage plays across the board. Only on second down could you make a minimal case for them. As I've often mentioned, the stats office would break out into group laughter when a team tried a screen pass on third down against a competent opponent. Invariably it is destroyed. As a Canes fan I screamed when Miami somehow brainstormed a 3rd and 10 screen against Ohio State in that famous title game. The Buckeyes had obliterated screens all season. This time they wiped out the play and shredded Willis McGahee's knee in the process.

We used to have specific parameters for what qualified as a screen pass. I'm not sure if NFL1000 uses similar guidelines.

Screens work in declining percentage the higher the level of football you reach. Attend high school games and it's commonplace for simple screen passes to ramble 70 or 80 yards. That running back is so superior he makes everyone look stupid in the open field. In college football screens work well in those early season home non-conference games against stiffs and some coordinators fail to recognize the dramatic difference once it's conference games against similar talent.

It should be fairly self explanatory that NFL defenses won't often allow cheap first downs via careful calls behind the line of scrimmage. Make those calls too often and it's an example of not adequately respecting your opposition. These days I think too many young coordinators advance up the ladder quickly and still envision all the prancing touchdowns via screen passes that they called at lower levels of the sport.
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The odds are worse when Stills is a blocker.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
Screen passes are a very poor investment. I emphasized that almost immediately upon joining this site in 2005. They are romanticized plays by fans, because it's so satisfying to believe you've won the chess match.

I haven't looked at the NFL1000 stuff but I worked for a stats company in Las Vegas nearly 20 years ago that charted every type of play and by situation. It confirmed what I'd always known, that screens were low percentage plays across the board. Only on second down could you make a minimal case for them. As I've often mentioned, the stats office would break out into group laughter when a team tried a screen pass on third down against a competent opponent. Invariably it is destroyed. As a Canes fan I screamed when Miami somehow brainstormed a 3rd and 10 screen against Ohio State in that famous title game. The Buckeyes had obliterated screens all season. This time they wiped out the play and shredded Willis McGahee's knee in the process.

We used to have specific parameters for what qualified as a screen pass. I'm not sure if NFL1000 uses similar guidelines.

Screens work in declining percentage the higher the level of football you reach. Attend high school games and it's commonplace for simple screen passes to ramble 70 or 80 yards. That running back is so superior he makes everyone look stupid in the open field. In college football screens work well in those early season home non-conference games against stiffs and some coordinators fail to recognize the dramatic difference once it's conference games against similar talent.

It should be fairly self explanatory that NFL defenses won't often allow cheap first downs via careful calls behind the line of scrimmage. Make those calls too often and it's an example of not adequately respecting your opposition. These days I think too many young coordinators advance up the ladder quickly and still envision all the prancing touchdowns via screen passes that they called at lower levels of the sport.
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Hence their categorization as a constraint play. The idea there is to use those plays not for the purpose of big gains, although you'll take them if they happen, but to keep the defense honest in such a way that your other plays, the ones that are intended to gain bigger yardage, work better.

That said, however, the Dolphins are nonetheless worse than the league average even in this area, and as I said above, I suspect that's due to the fact that opposing defenses aren't busy covering the plays intended to gain bigger yardage, because the Dolphins are so poor at executing those. Consequently those defenses don't need constraints applied to them, and constraint plays are therefore irrelevant and ineffective.
 
hoops said:
in terms of strictly personnel Kenny stills and qb ball placement the two biggest culprits this year...3rd on the list would be Julius Thomas who blocks in space like a finesse flex but it's not on the eye sore level of stills or the qb shoulder placement
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Consistent with what I said just above, it's almost unfair to expect players like these to execute in such a way as to make constraint plays effective, when the offense as a whole is functioning in such a way that defenders are in position to exploit such players on constraint plays. Opposing defenders certainly aren't busy paying homage to any kind of downfield game, which would give players like these an advantage in helping a constraint play be executed properly.

It's analogous to expecting an offensive line to prevent sacks of a QB who's poor at evading pressure, when the offense is down 20+ points in the second half and the whole world knows they have to pass. There's an inherent disadvantage for the player in those situations.
 
The biggest problem with those bubble screens isnt the blocking, it is the fact that opposing defenses are expecting it. They know what we are all about and they are ready for it.

What I'd like to see Gase start doing is pump fake the bubble screen and hit his TE on a slant. Teams will bite on that, until he overuses it, but it will also start to make that **** play more effective going forward.
 
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Avigatorx said:
The biggest problem with those bubble screens isnt the blocking, it is the fact that opposing defenses are expecting it. They know what we are all about and they are ready for it.

What I'd like to see Gase start doing is pump fake the bubble screen and hit his TE on a slant. Teams will bite on that, until he overuses it, but it will also start to make that **** play more effective going forward.
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That would help them be effective, as would just hitting downfield plays on a more regular basis, which would have the effect of backing defenders away from the line of scrimmage, where those constraint plays function.
 
they are only expecting it though cause their box counts tell them where it's going cause we line up in zone read looks with double stacks primarily...so they count their box and then run to it post snap...and the corners are told based on splits and alignment to attack the los...but that doesn't take away the fact that the actual numbers advantage should the guys execute in terms of shoulder placement and blocking should result in a basically run pass option gain ask...

and what they are basically looking for is 4 yards to maintain the sticks...from first and 10 to 2nd and 6 or 2nd and 8 to 2nd and 4...4 yards...that's all they want from it unless the opposition gives them a soft look to get more out of it or a guy misses a tackle

it's about maintaining the sticks...an extension basically of what you look for gain wise in the run game
 
hoops said:
they are only expecting it though cause their box counts tell them where it's going cause we line up in zone read looks with double stacks primarily...so they count their box and then run to it post snap...and the corners are told based on splits and alignment to attack the los...but that doesn't take away the fact that the actual numbers advantage should the guys execute in terms of shoulder placement and blocking should result in a basically run pass option gain ask...

and what they are basically looking for is 4 yards to maintain the sticks...from first and 10 to 2nd and 6 or 2nd and 8 to 2nd and 4...4 yards...that's all they want from it unless the opposition gives them a soft look to get more out of it or a guy misses a tackle

it's about maintaining the sticks...an extension basically of what you look for gain wise in the run game
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From the defense's perspective it is a pick 6 in the making if you get a good enough jump on it. That trips formation is such a dead giveaway.
 
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