03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so... | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so...

Stats don't tell the whole story. If you actually watched any games last year, you could tell that our line sucked. Fiedler actually avoided a lot of sacks with his scrambling ability. When Griese played, he got sacked like crazy. Fiedler did a way better job of avoiding sacks and since he played in most of the games we weren't among the worst in the league in sacks per pass attempt. If Griese started every game, we would have been among the worst in the league in that stat.
 
ZOD said:
December 29, 2003 Bill Bellichek showed the NFL how to defend the Dolphins rush attack. It's very simple. Ricky Williams is a premier running back and he will get his yards based on the amount of carries. The challenge that Bellichek made was for the Dolphins to throw the ball. Watch the replays of the games you have on tape. Seldom do the outside linebackers widen. Watch the New England games of 2003 specifically. There was a reason why Norv continually called McMichael's number. That was what Bellichek was giving him. Harrison on McMichael was the mismatch. The linebackers were dedicated to the run.

That's the problem when a coach gets the tag of being a genius, he gets things unfairly attributed to him constantly. Belichick did abso-lutely nothing to expose our running game. Playing the run is nothing different then then any of the other teams we've played since Ricky's 3rd or 4th game.

In our 1st game vs. New England, Ricky actually had a fairly decent game all in all relative to his production last season. He had 94 yards, which is above average for last season.

The Dolphins problems with the running game were exposed from the BEGINNING of the season, arguably even in preseason.
 
FinfanInBuffalo said:
The offense was geared towards running the ball. You have provided support for their pass blocking ability. How about researching their ability to run block?

Isn't that like putting Marino behind a line that run blocks like hell but keeps getting Marino killed?

So what!
Wannstadt messed up last year by not having the foresight to see the oline would be worst in 03 due to age & injures and that JF wasn't going to relieve them of facing 8-9 men in the box by forcing teams to respect his ability to complete passes down the field.

As for researching their runblocking ability, I took the liberty to assume they sucked at it. :roflmao:
 
iceblizzard69 said:
Stats don't tell the whole story. If you actually watched any games last year, you could tell that our line sucked. Fiedler actually avoided a lot of sacks with his scrambling ability. When Griese played, he got sacked like crazy. Fiedler did a way better job of avoiding sacks and since he played in most of the games we weren't among the worst in the league in sacks per pass attempt. If Griese started every game, we would have been among the worst in the league in that stat.
This is a great point. Griese was much more accurate than JF but didn't have the mobility. When he played i relized how good JF was at avoiding the rush. Unfortunately that is one of his only positives
 
enigmatics said:
Who said perfect???? I said "pieces" wrong p-word bub. And regardless of who you or anyone else wanted in at QB, Fiedler was the man........but he wasn't put into a situation where he could succeed, do to his limitations. This is just truth, I'm not making excuses for is. But then again I differ from some, I think Fiedler can still be a serviceable QB when there's no MVP for us to put on our squad.
You know, in a way I'm agreeing with you. I wanted to see what BG could do but he wasn't prepared and his toe was still injured, making him a sitting duck. Plus he started against BAL, IND, & TEN, all teams who sack the QB very well. So I was screamin for JF to come into the game against WASH when the offense stalled because I know JF can do some things well that I described earlier in this offense.

I'm not saying it's JF's fault he's limited. It's Wannstadt's fault for not seeking better at the QB position. Speilman has taken charge, with the backing of the owner, and if Feeley shows the ability to make the plays a QB must make to threaten the entire field, we'll go with him.
 
nicolosi718 said:
This is a great point. Griese was much more accurate than JF but didn't have the mobility. When he played i relized how good JF was at avoiding the rush. Unfortunately that is one of his only positives

Agreed but that seems to be the 1st priority the QB needed last year. It will also, IMO, be a major priority this year with a new line....
 
iceblizzard69 said:
Stats don't tell the whole story. If you actually watched any games last year, you could tell that our line sucked. Fiedler actually avoided a lot of sacks with his scrambling ability. When Griese played, he got sacked like crazy. Fiedler did a way better job of avoiding sacks and since he played in most of the games we weren't among the worst in the league in sacks per pass attempt. If Griese started every game, we would have been among the worst in the league in that stat.

Jay is one of the better Qb's in the NFL in feeling the rush. And the point about Griese in the line up cannot be avoided if one wishes to use sack totals to rate a OL.

If anything Jay made the line look better than it was...

--Ross
 
Scrambling is an important ability in a quarterback (especially with our OLine) but so is connecting on passes to wide open receivers, with no pressure on you.

Nobody is denying that the OLine sucked last year. No one is saying it was all JF's fault. But those two components working together definitely had an impact on play designs, formations, and scoring ability. I don't think anyone has any qualms about testing the QB market for a JF replacement. And the reason for that is because we don't have faith in him. And I believe the point of this thread is to extrapolate on that point.
 
ABrownLamp said:
Scrambling is an important ability in a quarterback (especially with our OLine) but so is connecting on passes to wide open receivers, with no pressure on you.

Nobody is denying that the OLine sucked last year. No one is saying it was all JF's fault. But those two components working together definitely had an impact on play designs, formations, and scoring ability. I don't think anyone has any qualms about testing the QB market for a JF replacement. And the reason for that is because we don't have faith in him. And I believe the point of this thread is to extrapolate on that point.
You summed it up better than I did in my originial post. Thanks :)
 
5offerdahl6 said:
And no other QB has to do this in the league?

He may be able to evade the rush but his pocket presence sucks. Pocket presense entails moving around in the pocket, avioding rushers with a step or two and hitting a play downfield. He extends the play but rarely looks to make a play down the field after extending the play, and when he does try to make a play under these circumstances, his physical limitations usually lead to incompletions or interceptions, i.e., in O.T. versus NE in 03.

That's bull. The guy has a 60% completion percentage...

--Ross
 
Both Fiedler and the O-line were problems for Miami last year...

Problem solved..

Arguing over which position hurt Miami the most is moot. Both needed retooling that is why Spielman let 4 of the 5 starting lineman go and also traded for a QB with a 2nd round pick.

Fiedler and the O-line were terrible last year.
 
Putting alot of weight on these sack numbers is misleading. A QB does not need to have good pass protection to have low sack numbers. Quick slants, fades, quick outs all lend themselves to low sack numbers. Some QB's tend to hold onto the ball to long and take a sack because they are unwilling to throw the ball away, Marino was among the best best at tossing it away to avoid a sack, Others do not step up into the pocket, fell the pressure, see the passing lanes, ETC. I find it hard to believe Bradys sacks per attempt when you think about how fast the ball is out of his had most of the time. Jay feels the rush ok, not great but ok, but does on step up in the pocket as well as I would like to see. It also seems to me that he likes to scramble to his left to avoid the rush but he does not throw well when moving that direction. IMO I think that those numbers are more of a hint as to not only how long the QB has to deliever the ball but also how well the rec are getting seperation and how well the QB is doing at getting the ball out on time. If I were to look at the detroit numbers I would lean more in the direction of a QB that was rushing the ball out and was a little unwilling to setup in the pocket and take a hit to give his rec time to finish the route before unloading the ball. Bledsoe is an example the other direction, Drew has tended over the last few years to hang onto the ball to long and be late on alot of his throws. Anyway those numbers really dont tell anyone much about what is going on in the larger picture.
 
Disgustipate said:
That's the problem when a coach gets the tag of being a genius, he gets things unfairly attributed to him constantly. Belichick did abso-lutely nothing to expose our running game. Playing the run is nothing different then then any of the other teams we've played since Ricky's 3rd or 4th game.

Actually I thought the pass protection was horrid in 2002. The fact that we couldn't pass was just something I was looking for I guess. The simple fact is that what I saw was unlike any previous game the Dolphins were dared to pass in that game.

It is pure coincidence that it was the "genius" ;)
 
RUDEbyallMEANS said:
Both Fiedler and the O-line were problems for Miami last year...

Problem solved..

Arguing over which position hurt Miami the most is moot. Both needed retooling that is why Spielman let 4 of the 5 starting lineman go and also traded for a QB with a 2nd round pick.

Fiedler and the O-line were terrible last year.
Ditto :)
 
Greatscott127 said:
Putting alot of weight on these sack numbers is misleading. A QB does not need to have good pass protection to have low sack numbers. Quick slants, fades, quick outs all lend themselves to low sack numbers. Some QB's tend to hold onto the ball to long and take a sack because they are unwilling to throw the ball away, Marino was among the best best at tossing it away to avoid a sack, Others do not step up into the pocket, fell the pressure, see the passing lanes, ETC. I find it hard to believe Bradys sacks per attempt when you think about how fast the ball is out of his had most of the time. Jay feels the rush ok, not great but ok, but does on step up in the pocket as well as I would like to see. It also seems to me that he likes to scramble to his left to avoid the rush but he does not throw well when moving that direction. IMO I think that those numbers are more of a hint as to not only how long the QB has to deliever the ball but also how well the rec are getting seperation and how well the QB is doing at getting the ball out on time. If I were to look at the detroit numbers I would lean more in the direction of a QB that was rushing the ball out and was a little unwilling to setup in the pocket and take a hit to give his rec time to finish the route before unloading the ball. Bledsoe is an example the other direction, Drew has tended over the last few years to hang onto the ball to long and be late on alot of his throws. Anyway those numbers really dont tell anyone much about what is going on in the larger picture.
I believe the #'s say alot. I wasn't my intent to say one thing with the #'s. But if you know the tendencies of certain clubs along w/ other info, the #'s can be used to reveal some relevant info. We all know NE loves 3 step drops and Brady is very adept at moving around within the pocket. Knowing these tendencies, I wouldn't have guess that Brady was sacked at a rate similiar to JF. It's just an amazing stat. Does it mean that Brady's line isn't that good, despite the offensive design to get rid of the ball quickly? Does it mean our line is a bit better at pass protection than we gave it credit for in 03? Does it mean NE's line would look as bad or worst than ours if BG was their QB? How did Seattle have such an effective passing game with an athletic QB who was sacked at a rate of 28th worst in the league? Some of the #'s reveal anomolies, i.e., DET #1 in sacks per pass attempt & PHI #30 in sacks per pass attempt. It's a long offseason. Let's discuss :D
 
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