03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so... | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so...

RUDEbyallMEANS said:
Both Fiedler and the O-line were problems for Miami last year...

Problem solved..

Arguing over which position hurt Miami the most is moot. Both needed retooling that is why Spielman let 4 of the 5 starting lineman go and also traded for a QB with a 2nd round pick.

Fiedler and the O-line were terrible last year.

Thanks for this post, I think it sums up the problems from last year as we and FO saw them...both the OL and QB situations were trying to be addressed this offseason. Now we see the results..our OL as we knew it is gone, our QB of late is in a battle with a new comer..I thinks the FO got it right. Hopefully the pieces we have work....unfortunately we couldn't get the RG and RT we orginally wanted...and it would have been too late to get the cut QB's of Summer, ie. June 1...trying to learn a O in a Month would kept the O back, by AJ being available early, he has a better chance of catching on.
 
Here's my take on the whole thing...

Fiedler's BEST aspect is that he moves in the pocket extremely well, knows when to escape, and knows when to run. I think this is the reason why our team has been allowed to neglect the O-line into the current state of disrepair. Fiedler helped out all the pass protection problems we had.

When Griese stepped in, things changed. The pressure looked alot worse. Griese doesnt have Fiedlers evasion skills.

The O-line pass protection looked better then it was. For Feeley, we need to improve it.
 
Discus it. I was putting in my two cents worth. I think the numbers, although somewhat useful, do not paint an accurate picture of anything in particular. I also see that QB numbers are not wholy dependant on sacks given up. The numbers I want to see is the number of heavy pressures per pass attempt, and an average time of protection per pass attempt. I think the # of pressures and average time of protection will play a larger roll in QB rating then sacks. I say this because Jay is good at avoiding pressure while other QB's are not so although jay may get sacked at an average ratio per pass attempt he may well have gotten pressured more often and quicker then alot of other QB's. I know, for example, with Bledsoe that if you get pressure up the middle he is alot more likely to throw a pick. It does not have to be great pressure just pressure. Brady on the other hand deals with up the middle pressure better but his lack of foot speed makes him a little weaker aginst the outside rush. The other thing with brady is that he is good at stepping up into the pocket. I hope this rambling make sense. I am not discounting your numbers. I am saying that we should add some more numbers into the equation to get a better picture of the actual O-line and QB play.
 
Disgustipate said:
Belichick did abso-lutely nothing to expose our running game. Playing the run is nothing different then then any of the other teams we've played since Ricky's 3rd or 4th game.

12/29/02 - Ricky Williams has 31 attempts for 185 yards , Jay Fiedler throws has 25 attempts for 110 yards.

Here is the thing about stats in general. They never show what a game plan was and why the player experienced success. You can check this against the play by play here http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021229_MIA@NE

Basic defensive philosophy is to keep your players in the core or box (whichever you prefer) to stop the run or passing attack in the middle of the field. The offense has only one choice and that is to spread the defense out with formation and attack the edge until the outside linebackers in any defense widen. If these linebackers do not widen it is my view that it is a "dare" to pass.

First to spread the defense out you must enter in a single back set. This is my explanation of the disappearance of Rob Konrad. It was not by choice that Norv Turner left him out of the game. It was dictated. Norv has a very good history of utilizing fullbacks and one mention of the name "Moose" should serve as a reminder.

Back to the attack.....

The only success an offensive team will find against one who would keep his linebackers in the core is to the C gap or D gaps. That is where the defense is vulnerable. Unless the offense utilizes a cross pull block or trap with an offensive lineman this essentially eliminates the offensive lines effectiveness against the linebackers. Jamie Nails, who was the best pulling guard Miami had in 2002 was injured for the game I speak of. Still with speed possessed by a RB with good tackle and tight end play an offense can have success running to the outside against linebackers who will not widen on the pre-snap read.

Versus the pass the outside linebackers will drop back into there zones. The play action is of utmost importance to keep the linebackers in versus the run as they had originally planned. To "sell" the play action runs up the middle must be attempted even though the offense will not experience much success. Ricky Williams made a living off of the ISO in 2002. In the game that I speak of the play by play shows 16 attempts to run in the A and B gaps. The play by play shows a paltry 33 yards gained on those attempts. Norv displayed the discipline needed to run into the core even though he knew it would gain nothing.

But you say, "Ricky gained 185 yards in that game!" He sure did. The play by play shows that Ricky ran to the C and D gaps 15 times. The 15 attempts to those gaps netted 152 yards. It is what the defense gave to the offense. It is what Norv took.

Heck, Norv even attacked the edge with a reverse to Chambers and that had 6 yards worth of success. The second reverse that netted 45 yards. The third reverse netted 8 yards. The defense had wholesale prices on the C and D gaps. It is what the defense gift wrapped for the offense. It is what Norv took.

As Dave has said in the offseason to be a running team as the Dolphins are you must have success in the play action pass. In that game I speak of we had no success with the play action pass. If the outside linebacker holds due to the fake the slant or curl to the slot or tight end is my next read and it should be open.

The Dolphins attempted to pass the ball 25 times. They connected on only 11 resulting in 103 yards. Critical to deciphering what went wrong is who the intended receiver was. As stated before when you face a defense where the linebackers remain in the core the slot receiver, tight end, or your RB on a swing route should be open. Randy Mcmichael, Chris Carter, Dedric Ward, Rob Konrad, and Ricky Williams had 14 balls thrown their way. Nine were completed. The success of the attack was evident but the slot, swing, or tight end passes are the short yardage attacks in this basic philosophy.

At some point the offense must make the defense pay deep. James Mcknight had taken over the number two wide receiver spot. Chris Chambers remained the number one for this game. Collectively they had 11 pass attempts thrown their way. They had success on only two.

Given the defense that they faced the receivers faced either zone coverage or were faced with bump and run coverage. It doesn't matter what coverage they faced the defense had given them an opening to pass outside. A quality play fake should have held the outside linebackers in. The tight end should have been mismatched against a safety. The wide receivers should have been one on one on more than half the attempts. The Qb should have had easy reads.

The facts as I see them are that the defense took away the inside with there linebackers in the core. The short yardage attack was successful. Given the fact that some deep passes were attempted I would say that Norv did see the linebackers did widen sparingly. It was on those attempts that Jay and his wide receivers failed this offense. Usually sacks can be attributed to an aggressive defensive end or linebacker (for the 3-4) in this type of front but I can't say I saw that because I didn't. But this is what I saw in that game. Unfortunately I saw some of the same fronts in 2003.

Disgustipate said:
The Dolphins problems with the running game were exposed from the BEGINNING of the season.

And they studied tape from the preceding season.
 
yeah Fiedler's scrambling ability cant be ignored....Where would we have been on that list if Griese would have QB'd all season??
 
Thank you offerdah for that GREAT summery of thw oline and JF.They say we are all spoiled with Dan M. well I don't think so. JF is BAD bad not a pro QB by any means, ok for sand lot only. could be ok for a back for a short an I:fire: mean short time finjim
 
This year - Last year

W. Smith > W. Smith
J. James > J. Nails
S. McKinney > T. Ruddy

G. Jerman > E. Perry (If he does start, he'll be a big surprise ) :cooldude:
V. Carey > T. Wade (Todd Wade sucked, he was more inconsistent than jay. :D )
 
ZOD said:
12/29/02 - Ricky Williams has 31 attempts for 185 yards , Jay Fiedler throws has 25 attempts for 110 yards.

Here is the thing about stats in general. They never show what a game plan was and why the player experienced success. You can check this against the play by play here http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021229_MIA@NE

Basic defensive philosophy is to keep your players in the core or box (whichever you prefer) to stop the run or passing attack in the middle of the field. The offense has only one choice and that is to spread the defense out with formation and attack the edge until the outside linebackers in any defense widen. If these linebackers do not widen it is my view that it is a "dare" to pass.

First to spread the defense out you must enter in a single back set. This is my explanation of the disappearance of Rob Konrad. It was not by choice that Norv Turner left him out of the game. It was dictated. Norv has a very good history of utilizing fullbacks and one mention of the name "Moose" should serve as a reminder.

Back to the attack.....

The only success an offensive team will find against one who would keep his linebackers in the core is to the C gap or D gaps. That is where the defense is vulnerable. Unless the offense utilizes a cross pull block or trap with an offensive lineman this essentially eliminates the offensive lines effectiveness against the linebackers. Jamie Nails, who was the best pulling guard Miami had in 2002 was injured for the game I speak of. Still with speed possessed by a RB with good tackle and tight end play an offense can have success running to the outside against linebackers who will not widen on the pre-snap read.

Versus the pass the outside linebackers will drop back into there zones. The play action is of utmost importance to keep the linebackers in versus the run as they had originally planned. To "sell" the play action runs up the middle must be attempted even though the offense will not experience much success. Ricky Williams made a living off of the ISO in 2002. In the game that I speak of the play by play shows 16 attempts to run in the A and B gaps. The play by play shows a paltry 33 yards gained on those attempts. Norv displayed the discipline needed to run into the core even though he knew it would gain nothing.

But you say, "Ricky gained 185 yards in that game!" He sure did. The play by play shows that Ricky ran to the C and D gaps 15 times. The 15 attempts to those gaps netted 152 yards. It is what the defense gave to the offense. It is what Norv took.

Heck, Norv even attacked the edge with a reverse to Chambers and that had 6 yards worth of success. The second reverse that netted 45 yards. The third reverse netted 8 yards. The defense had wholesale prices on the C and D gaps. It is what the defense gift wrapped for the offense. It is what Norv took.

As Dave has said in the offseason to be a running team as the Dolphins are you must have success in the play action pass. In that game I speak of we had no success with the play action pass. If the outside linebacker holds due to the fake the slant or curl to the slot or tight end is my next read and it should be open.

The Dolphins attempted to pass the ball 25 times. They connected on only 11 resulting in 103 yards. Critical to deciphering what went wrong is who the intended receiver was. As stated before when you face a defense where the linebackers remain in the core the slot receiver, tight end, or your RB on a swing route should be open. Randy Mcmichael, Chris Carter, Dedric Ward, Rob Konrad, and Ricky Williams had 14 balls thrown their way. Nine were completed. The success of the attack was evident but the slot, swing, or tight end passes are the short yardage attacks in this basic philosophy.

At some point the offense must make the defense pay deep. James Mcknight had taken over the number two wide receiver spot. Chris Chambers remained the number one for this game. Collectively they had 11 pass attempts thrown their way. They had success on only two.

Given the defense that they faced the receivers faced either zone coverage or were faced with bump and run coverage. It doesn't matter what coverage they faced the defense had given them an opening to pass outside. A quality play fake should have held the outside linebackers in. The tight end should have been mismatched against a safety. The wide receivers should have been one on one on more than half the attempts. The Qb should have had easy reads.

The facts as I see them are that the defense took away the inside with there linebackers in the core. The short yardage attack was successful. Given the fact that some deep passes were attempted I would say that Norv did see the linebackers did widen sparingly. It was on those attempts that Jay and his wide receivers failed this offense. Usually sacks can be attributed to an aggressive defensive end or linebacker (for the 3-4) in this type of front but I can't say I saw that because I didn't. But this is what I saw in that game. Unfortunately I saw some of the same fronts in 2003.



And they studied tape from the preceding season.
excellent post Zod!
 
DBoston80 said:
yeah Fiedler's scrambling ability cant be ignored....Where would we have been on that list if Griese would have QB'd all season??
I broke down the Dolphins rating between JF & BG along w/ an overall rating. With JF is on par with TBrady around in sacks per pass attempt, around 12th-13th in the league. BG is on par with DMcNabb, between 30th-31st in the league.

So if Tbrady & JF were sacked at the same rate, Would BG be sacked at a rate that ranks between 30th-31st in the league if he played for NE?

How could DMcNabb be sacked at the same rate as BG?
 
my biggest complaint about fiedler was he seemed to be nervous late in

games when he should be stepping up... even if we had the lead late, you

didnt feel comfortable with him and his abilities....
 
5offerdahl6 said:
I broke down the Dolphins rating between JF & BG along w/ an overall rating. With JF is on par with TBrady around in sacks per pass attempt, around 12th-13th in the league. BG is on par with DMcNabb, between 30th-31st in the league.

Yup, last in the league. IMO we had the worse oline in the league, and everyone's numbers suffered for it...

--Ross
 
Very nice piece of research there 5offerdahl6:) . And you are correct with your idea of the QB making the real diference. Brady did a lot to help the O-Line last season. In the post season the O-Line for the Patriots did not give up a sack. Most of this was due to Brady side steping and getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at the Bills their O-Line was really fairly good. But Bledsoe held on to the ball longer than he should and it hurt them alot.:shakeno: Feeley has been none to hold the ball for to long at times. He also will then send it down the field with out getting set resulting in an INT.
 
The Myth said:
Very nice piece of research there 5offerdahl6:) . And you are correct with your idea of the QB making the real diference. Brady did a lot to help the O-Line last season. In the post season the O-Line for the Patriots did not give up a sack. Most of this was due to Brady side steping and getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at the Bills their O-Line was really fairly good. But Bledsoe held on to the ball longer than he should and it hurt them alot.:shakeno: Feeley has been none to hold the ball for to long at times. He also will then send it down the field with out getting set resulting in an INT.
Thanks for the reply Myth

I was really looking forward to a Pats fan take on TBrady pocket presence as it relates to sacks.

As for Feely, I haven't seen him play but he can't be a statue like an injured toe BG.
 
The Dolphins' sacks allowed rank doesn't tells us much about their o-line last year. There are too many factors that can skew that statistic. Here is a statistic that speaks volumes about the o-line. Ricky was #10 in rushing yards last year. All 9 RBs ahead of him averaged at least 4.4 ypc. Ricky averaged 3.5 ypc. Of the 18 RBs that rushed for 1000 yards in 2003, only Eddie George had a lower ypc (3.3). Ricky and Eddie were the only two with ypc's less than 4.0.
I don't believe Ricky can be blamed for that at all. He did more with less than any RB in the NFL in 2003. If they had a stat for most-times-hit-in-the-backfield I'm sure Ricky would have been the league leader. When you have a stud RB constantly getting hit in the backfield that has to say something about the o-line.
Here's hoping that the 2004 line is significantly better than the 2003 line.
 
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