A 10 Year History of First Round CB's: How Safe is Trae Waynes? | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

A 10 Year History of First Round CB's: How Safe is Trae Waynes?

I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for measurements over film, but you're right that I do use these drills to check boxes. You can find posts, though, where I questioned Waynes' COD before the Combine. It was confirmation rather than revelation.

But I agree, you have to do what works for you.

IMO, cone drill is just a drill you expect top corners to do well in.

trae has plummeted on my board ever since the combine, everyone had him moving up based on his 40, that was ridiculous to me. As I've said before, the combine is a pass/fail test IMO. Thats one area a 1st rnd corner can't fail in IMO.
 
Peters and PJ Williams are 7+ guys too.

After looking at the list I've come to one conclusion.

Byron Jones is just an animal and will be drafted way higher than anyone thinks right now. Every year there is a player that absolutely skyrockets due to numbers, and they just dont get much better than Jones.

Jones and Rowe are tue big risers at cornerback in this draft, very interested to see how high each of then go, and who goes first.

I haven't watched enough on either of them to make an opinion. But the way jones is built for a cornerback, is something else.
 
it's in his feet not his hips from what i see although he's definitely high cut...but i have to say that while i agree with some of this there's a bit of cherry picking going on here with the actual plays presented...you pretty much took the only tape he had any issues and broadcasted it as what he is as a player...seems over the top to me...i'll have to look at those individual plays when i get time to see if the assessments are accurate from my point of view...

cod is more about fluidity of hips than feet...

marcus peters dropped a worse 3 cone b/t and he doesnt strike you as stiff

oh and peterson is absolutely overrated
 
Jones and Rowe are tue big risers at cornerback in this draft, very interested to see how high each of then go, and who goes first.

I haven't watched enough on either of them to make an opinion. But the way jones is built for a cornerback, is something else.

Both of those guys could end up going in the first. Wouldn't be surprised one bit. Not advocating for them to go there…but jus saying I won't be surprised if it happens
 
imo Peters is the best corner in the draft the only question is can our coaching staff handle him
 
Yes, Peterson is good; but elite? No.

If he's asked to cover the #1 receiver all the time, maybe they should just change things up and keep him on one side of the field. Maybe it would benefit him. He's got a hell of a lot of talent but gets beat too much. Why is that? And his ego is off the charts too, or was.

Overrated for sure, but I'd add him to our team in a heartbeat.
 
I understand the concern about 3-cone times.

But then again..

Brent Grimes:
- Height: 5'9"
- Weight: 177 lbs
- 40 Time: 4.57
- 3-Cone: 7.13

Trae Waynes:
- Height: 6'0"
- Weight: 186 lbs
- 40 Time: 4.31
- 3-Cone: 7.06

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=55402&draftyear=2006&genpos=CB-title=Brent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Grimes#2006_Pre-draft

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1868411/trae-waynes

So I don't know..

And grimes has cat like fluidity...they dont get any more fluid than brent grimes...although you better have serious awareness and the right scheme if you gonna run 4.57 at those measurables...
 
I understand the concern about 3-cone times.

But then again..

Brent Grimes:
- Height: 5'9"
- Weight: 177 lbs
- 40 Time: 4.57
- 3-Cone: 7.13

Trae Waynes:
- Height: 6'0"
- Weight: 186 lbs
- 40 Time: 4.31
- 3-Cone: 7.06

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=55402&draftyear=2006&genpos=CB-title=Brent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Grimes#2006_Pre-draft

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1868411/trae-waynes

So I don't know..

Trae's problems actually show up on tape though.

I don't think he's a bad player by any means, but I don't think he's the guy he's hyped to be either.
 
Let also not forget that he played in the big 10 the Qb's in that conference prefer to throw interceptions.

he played Brice Petty and got worked

I think he's far and away the most over hyped player in the draft.
 
Brent Grimes vertical jump is also like 42 inches I believe.

Yeah, I don't know the story behind Grimes' Pro Day, but none of the measurements seem to match the player. Last year, I liked Verrett a lot and saw Grimes as a solid comp for him, and when I looked up Grimes Combine/Pro Day results, I was just said, 'WTF is this!?' Don't seem to match the player at all - speed, leaping, ability, quickness . . . none of it syncs.
 
Well done. I'm an increasing believer in draft metrics. They seem to be particularly valuable on defense, along with stuff like quarterback hand size and offensive linemen arm length.

Dismiss them at your own risk. The idea, as always, is to isolate a helpful angle that occupies the majority of examples. If you rely on subjectivity to overcome the rule you are simply asking yourself to perform too far above the norm. When the rule is working in your favor, the margin for error is massive.

Speaking of Peters of Washington, I just finished watching all the bowl games. I taped them months ago but with so much dental work and losing 22 pounds as a result I was way behind.

I don't think I've ever seen a recent team as rag tag and out of control as Washington 2014. Quite startling, given the identity of their coach and the talent level, especially on defense with elite rated guys on all three levels.

They play nothing like a Chris Petersen defense. It's like both sides gave up on the translation and allowed the season to play out that way: Shirt tails out, ridiculous penalties, no concern about assignments or basic smarts. It was school yard football all the way. Petersen apparently decided to wait until he got his type of player in the program and the Sarkisian types already on the field merely speared opponents and wandered around while biding their time before the draft. I wondered why that team feasted on weaklings but had so much trouble against upper tier Pac 12 foes, until I looked at them more closely. It didn't get much publicity since it was late in the bowl season but that game as a 7 point favorite against Oklahoma State, particularly the 24-0 deficit at halftime, was among the most disgraceful and inept performances of the entire season. None of the top rated defenders seemed to care or have prepared at all. They waited for opportunity for a splash play, and that's about it.

Contrast to UCLA, which was incredibly well prepared and jumped all over a very smart and well coached Kansas State team from the outset. Mora. Jr. really has UCLA looking like a mini pro team. Playmakers everywhere. I would continue to look for bargains among their roster. Not necessarily the quarterback. That's all about accuracy and instincts, which he lacks. Overall UCLA has many players who remind me of the Canes in their prime.

Keep in mind that the rag tag style of the Washington Huskie defenders doesn't necessarily preclude them from excellence in the NFL. I basically described the Arizona State program in recent decades. Rogue, far more often than not. Heck, the linebacker Burfict spent his final season as a Sun Devil out of control and looking exactly like the 2014 Huskie defenders. It may have ruined his draft status but hasn't exactly harmed his progress in the NFL.

I'm just surprised the Washington style of play hasn't garnered more attention. But then again, the Pac 12 is basically ignored in the East. I did find some friends in Las Vegas the past few weeks who knew exactly what I was talking about. One of them said he won a big bet on UCLA at Washington last season based on smarts alone. I missed that one.
 
One issue with these sorts of studies is that sometimes people fall into the trap of being a little fast and loose with the details, making it essentially pseudo-science instead of real science.

I mean just reading through things, I guess the theory is that Trae Waynes is a buyer beware corner because he ran a 7.06 cone drill?

As I'm reading through though, I'm just noticing some things that stand out to me:

1. No mention of Leodis McKelvin who has actually become a pretty good corner.

2. Prince Amukamara is a disappointment? His health has been a disappointment. But slap on the film and get back to me.

3. Joe Haden's 6.94 is labeled "respectable" and categorically separated from dudes who ran like 3 to 6 hundredths of a second slower. Kinda shady.

4. There's a statement at the end that a team would be asking Waynes to be "the best CB in the last 10 drafts to post a 3-Cone worse than 7.0." This seems like a bit of sophistry. We're talking about some magical arbitrary line of demarcation where a guy a few hundredths of a second this way is not counted but a few hundredths of a second that way is.

First off, why 10 drafts? In that 11th draft Dunta Robinson became a pretty successful corner despite his 6.97 cone drill. In that 12th year, Charles Tillman has enjoyed a borderline Hall of Fame career despite his having run a 7.05 cone drill. Asante Samuel became a pro bowler despite his 6.95 cone drill.

The other issue here is the statement just isn't necessarily true. Brandon Browner was pretty damn good for the Seahawks when he came back over from the CFL, and that dude ran a 7.20 cone drill. He's a little over the hill now (for a corner he's ancient) so people are going to crap on him but they weren't doing that a few years ago. Jonathan Joseph with his 6.92 has been pretty good. Tarell Brown has been good despite his 7.00. Cary Williams has carved out some room for himself despite his 6.94. So has Captain Munnerlyn despite a 7.15. By the way he's been a slot corner which you can't really be unless you're quick and change directions well, so I have no idea what that cone time was supposed to tell us about his COD skills. Kareem Jackson and Sean Smith both 6.92. Didn't Byron Maxwell just sign a big contract, even despite his 7.12 cone drill? Janoris Jenkins seems alright despite his 6.95. Trumaine Johnson has had a nice career despite his 7.20. Josh Norman been fine in Carolina despite a 7.09 cone drill. I thought Tharold Simon looked pretty good this year in Seattle despite his 7.01 cone drill.

Will Davis with his 6.51 cone drill...not so much. And therein lies the rub, because if you go through and start pointing out all the corners that ran 6.5's and 6.6's or low 6.70's, pretty much the other end of the spectrum from the 6.9's, 7.0's and 7.1's crowd, you're gonna find all kinds of players that sucked ass despite having good cone drill times.

Spray up the TRUE and accurate results of a complete study of this onto a scattergram and then run your regressions, and you're not gonna see a trend worth farting on, from a statistical significance standpoint. That's when you've got to go playing fast and loose with the rules, moving the goal posts to try and fit the data and create the narrative semblance of something worth talking about.

And you can't start talking about "outliers" unless there's a damn trend in the first place.

Trust me, much of this is what I do for a living. I live for this kind of ****. But I know when these supposed trends are BS'ing me.

The cone drill is a highly esoteric exercise with only vague, conceptual resemblance to anything you do on the football field. You've got to practice at the L Drill more than you would a shake route, in order to get it right. Some players do that. Some players just focus on the all-important 40 yard dash.

And because the cone drill is not considered near as important as the 40 yard dash you have all sorts of measurement issues associated with it. They've put a LOT into the idea of trying to solve issues of precision and comparability of 40 yard dash times. No such luck with cone drills. There's no Mark Gorcek sitting in a chair at the start of the cone drill blowing players dead if he gets the barest sense that they may have started the drill in some unorthodox manner that could result in a signal-to-noise issue. There aren't 6 scouts from every time (I don't think) hand timing each cone drill and then averaging their times. Do we even know that Trae Waynes ran a 7.06? The correct answer is no.

I think we're thirsty for these holy grail metrics, and so we tend to see them where we want to and totally gloss over serious problems in the quality of the building materials. The NFL has that sense too. They make use of metrics and physics measurements that would blow your socks off, that aren't for public consumption. And when it comes to measurement quality, they're focused on getting it right.

At this stage I'm not even sure how important the teams actually consider those cone and shuttle drills. Might be more of a dog and pony show than anything else. They've got stuff that blows it away in terms of quality.
 
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