A 10 Year History of First Round CB's: How Safe is Trae Waynes? | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

A 10 Year History of First Round CB's: How Safe is Trae Waynes?

One issue with these sorts of studies is that sometimes people fall into the trap of being a little fast and loose with the details, making it essentially pseudo-science instead of real science.
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One issue with these sorts of studies is that sometimes people fall into the trap of being a little fast and loose with the details, making it essentially pseudo-science instead of real science.

I mean just reading through things, I guess the theory is that Trae Waynes is a buyer beware corner because he ran a 7.06 cone drill?

As I'm reading through though, I'm just noticing some things that stand out to me:

1. No mention of Leodis McKelvin who has actually become a pretty good corner.

I used McKelvin as his comp, and he's listed in the group of eight, so I'm a little confused by this.

2. Prince Amukamara is a disappointment? His health has been a disappointment. But slap on the film and get back to me.

For a top-20 pick, I'd label Amukamara a disappointment. He's a solid, when healthy, 2nd CB.

3. Joe Haden's 6.94 is labeled "respectable" and categorically separated from dudes who ran like 3 to 6 hundredths of a second slower. Kinda shady.

I used 7.0 as the cutoff, because when looking at players, I noticed that guys who posted 7+ tended to struggle compared to expectations, so I used it as a cutoff point. When I started looking at the players, I was just curious. I had no intention of doing a write up on it.

4. There's a statement at the end that a team would be asking Waynes to be "the best CB in the last 10 drafts to post a 3-Cone worse than 7.0." This seems like a bit of sophistry. We're talking about some magical arbitrary line of demarcation where a guy a few hundredths of a second this way is not counted but a few hundredths of a second that way is.

I think it's pretty common to differentiate players by a few hundredths of a second in the 40, a few inches in the vert, etc. What makes this different? If you're disregarding the drill overall, that's fine. But I don't see why you'd take such a contentious tone towards the statement. I understand that you disagree with the premise.

First off, why 10 drafts? In that 11th draft Dunta Robinson became a pretty successful corner despite his 6.97 cone drill. In that 12th year, Charles Tillman has enjoyed a borderline Hall of Fame career despite his having run a 7.05 cone drill. Asante Samuel became a pro bowler despite his 6.95 cone drill.

I went with 10 years, because the further back you go, the more difficult it is to find measurements on these players; I wanted a round number; and, I felt it was a relevant sampling. Tillman was a Cover 2 CB. How many teams draft Cover 2 CB's in the top 10? Both Robinson and Samuel come in under 7.0.

The other issue here is the statement just isn't necessarily true. Brandon Browner was pretty damn good for the Seahawks when he came back over from the CFL, and that dude ran a 7.20 cone drill. He's a little over the hill now (for a corner he's ancient) so people are going to crap on him but they weren't doing that a few years ago. Jonathan Joseph with his 6.92 has been pretty good. Tarell Brown has been good despite his 7.00. Cary Williams has carved out some room for himself despite his 6.94. So has Captain Munnerlyn despite a 7.15. By the way he's been a slot corner which you can't really be unless you're quick and change directions well, so I have no idea what that cone time was supposed to tell us about his COD skills. Kareem Jackson and Sean Smith both 6.92. Didn't Byron Maxwell just sign a big contract, even despite his 7.12 cone drill? Janoris Jenkins seems alright despite his 6.95. Trumaine Johnson has had a nice career despite his 7.20. Josh Norman been fine in Carolina despite a 7.09 cone drill. I thought Tharold Simon looked pretty good this year in Seattle despite his 7.01 cone drill.

We'll see how Maxwell does in Philly, but he had Earl Thomas playing over his side and Richard Sherman on the other side, and he played primarily in a Cover 3. I, for one, hated the signing by Philly. I think Seattle got the best of that FA CB swap. Browner is a giant CB and would profile similar to Cromartie and Rhodes in my opinion. Again, though, this was a look at 1st round CB's, with an emphasis on those who tested worse than 7.0

Will Davis with his 6.51 cone drill...not so much. And therein lies the rub, because if you go through and start pointing out all the corners that ran 6.5's and 6.6's or low 6.70's, pretty much the other end of the spectrum from the 6.9's, 7.0's and 7.1's crowd, you're gonna find all kinds of players that sucked ass despite having good cone drill times.

This is not an argument that a player will be good just because he ran a good 3-Cone.

Spray up the TRUE and accurate results of a complete study of this onto a scattergram and then run your regressions, and you're not gonna see a trend worth farting on, from a statistical significance standpoint. That's when you've got to go playing fast and loose with the rules, moving the goal posts to try and fit the data and create the narrative semblance of something worth talking about.

And you can't start talking about "outliers" unless there's a damn trend in the first place.

Trust me, much of this is what I do for a living. I live for this kind of ****. But I know when these supposed trends are BS'ing me.

The cone drill is a highly esoteric exercise with only vague, conceptual resemblance to anything you do on the football field. You've got to practice at the L Drill more than you would a shake route, in order to get it right. Some players do that. Some players just focus on the all-important 40 yard dash.

And because the cone drill is not considered near as important as the 40 yard dash you have all sorts of measurement issues associated with it. They've put a LOT into the idea of trying to solve issues of precision and comparability of 40 yard dash times. No such luck with cone drills. There's no Mark Gorcek sitting in a chair at the start of the cone drill blowing players dead if he gets the barest sense that they may have started the drill in some unorthodox manner that could result in a signal-to-noise issue. There aren't 6 scouts from every time (I don't think) hand timing each cone drill and then averaging their times. Do we even know that Trae Waynes ran a 7.06? The correct answer is no.

I think we're thirsty for these holy grail metrics, and so we tend to see them where we want to and totally gloss over serious problems in the quality of the building materials. The NFL has that sense too. They make use of metrics and physics measurements that would blow your socks off, that aren't for public consumption. And when it comes to measurement quality, they're focused on getting it right.

At this stage I'm not even sure how important the teams actually consider those cone and shuttle drills. Might be more of a dog and pony show than anything else. They've got stuff that blows it away in terms of quality.

As I understand it, the Patriots value it over any other drill, and it's worked out pretty well for them.

Thanks for the response, CK. I always appreciate your take - whether or not I agree with it.
 
Well done. I'm an increasing believer in draft metrics. They seem to be particularly valuable on defense, along with stuff like quarterback hand size and offensive linemen arm length.

Dismiss them at your own risk. The idea, as always, is to isolate a helpful angle that occupies the majority of examples. If you rely on subjectivity to overcome the rule you are simply asking yourself to perform too far above the norm. When the rule is working in your favor, the margin for error is massive.

Speaking of Peters of Washington, I just finished watching all the bowl games. I taped them months ago but with so much dental work and losing 22 pounds as a result I was way behind.

I don't think I've ever seen a recent team as rag tag and out of control as Washington 2014. Quite startling, given the identity of their coach and the talent level, especially on defense with elite rated guys on all three levels.

They play nothing like a Chris Petersen defense. It's like both sides gave up on the translation and allowed the season to play out that way: Shirt tails out, ridiculous penalties, no concern about assignments or basic smarts. It was school yard football all the way. Petersen apparently decided to wait until he got his type of player in the program and the Sarkisian types already on the field merely speared opponents and wandered around while biding their time before the draft. I wondered why that team feasted on weaklings but had so much trouble against upper tier Pac 12 foes, until I looked at them more closely. It didn't get much publicity since it was late in the bowl season but that game as a 7 point favorite against Oklahoma State, particularly the 24-0 deficit at halftime, was among the most disgraceful and inept performances of the entire season. None of the top rated defenders seemed to care or have prepared at all. They waited for opportunity for a splash play, and that's about it.

Contrast to UCLA, which was incredibly well prepared and jumped all over a very smart and well coached Kansas State team from the outset. Mora. Jr. really has UCLA looking like a mini pro team. Playmakers everywhere. I would continue to look for bargains among their roster. Not necessarily the quarterback. That's all about accuracy and instincts, which he lacks. Overall UCLA has many players who remind me of the Canes in their prime.

Keep in mind that the rag tag style of the Washington Huskie defenders doesn't necessarily preclude them from excellence in the NFL. I basically described the Arizona State program in recent decades. Rogue, far more often than not. Heck, the linebacker Burfict spent his final season as a Sun Devil out of control and looking exactly like the 2014 Huskie defenders. It may have ruined his draft status but hasn't exactly harmed his progress in the NFL.

I'm just surprised the Washington style of play hasn't garnered more attention. But then again, the Pac 12 is basically ignored in the East. I did find some friends in Las Vegas the past few weeks who knew exactly what I was talking about. One of them said he won a big bet on UCLA at Washington last season based on smarts alone. I missed that one.

I was wondering where you've been, Awsi. Good to see you posting, sir!
 
Yeah. Sure. That's it.

Reading ain't your thing, I get it.

No I can read just fine, but you wouldn't spend that much time trying to disprove a pretty basic study if you didn't like Trae Waynes.

J-off never said his study was a perfect science, never said everyone with a bad cone drill would absolutely fail, your making such a fuss about this you even have a problem with the fact he only went back 10 drafts. Seriously, what kind of nit picking complaint is that?

7.06 is a bad #, we all know this, he simply used that # and compared it with other 1st rnd picks, basic **** here.

You called his study "shady", "pseudo science", used backhand comments such as "magical arbitrary lines", "sophistry." And than have the nerve to say:

"Spray up the TRUE and accurate results of a complete study of this onto a scattergram and then run your regressions, and you're not gonna see a trend worth farting on, from a statistical significance standpoint. That's when you've got to go playing fast and loose with the rules, moving the goal posts to try and fit the data and create the narrative semblance of something worth talking about.

And you can't start talking about "outliers" unless there's a damn trend in the first place."

What a arrogant comment, this accusation that he somehow forged the study to agree with his theory, is ridiculous and if you want to do that much work to map the stats, than you do it, who the **** do you think you are?

If in your OPINION you believe that a more sophisticated study with 7 rounds of picks will prove that terrible cone drill times, do not effect there NFL production, than go ahead and do the study. We would all love to see it.

But its pretty ****ing ironic that you sit on your high horse with a weak attempt to disprove his study, while pretending you have some non existent study that disproves his.
 
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