Article absolutely KILLING Chambers | Page 18 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Article absolutely KILLING Chambers

billbarnwell

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I did and the board just ATE MY POST.

That was so uncool. I only got to 47, though. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on Bertrand Berrian and Patrick Crayton, or else it would have been 50.

In short, please check out the WR metrics page at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/wr.php.

There, you'll find the 81 wide receivers who have performed better than Chris Chambers this year and been the recipient of 50 attempts or more.

Some of them play with awful quarterbacks, some great ones; some run slants and curls, others go deep.

They all played better than Chris Chambers.
 

adamprez2003

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I will say without question that Chris Chambers had a pretty bad season, but calling him the worst wide receiver in the league is irresponsible.

I agree and stats dont reveal the perfect storm of an inept offensive coordinator, below average line, and poor to mediocre QB he had. Having said that he shopuld be compared to other number one receivers who's job is to stretch the field. I think its pointless comparing him to possession or slot receivers. As for the number 1 category, unfortunately, he probably is near the bottom though I still dont think he's the worst. He's definitiely not the worst in ability but in terms of ability potential to actual performance he may be the worst number 1

Antonio Bryant underperformed this year. The Falcons or Bucs dont have one receiver I would trade for Chambers, Berrian is a one year wonder, the Vikings have noone. I dont think Eric Parker is any better though he probably had a better year, same with Kennison, The Jags and Titans dont have receivers that you can categorically say are better than Chambers, The Ravens Clayton is having a breakout year but will it continue for his career and there is noone on the Patriots I would take over Chambers so Chambers is somewhere around 20-24 in terms of number 1 receivers from an eyeball test
 

DolfinDave

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I agree and stats dont reveal the perfect storm of an inept offensive coordinator, below average line, and poor to mediocre QB he had. Having said that he shopuld be compared to other number one receivers who's job is to stretch the field. I think its pointless comparing him to possession or slot receivers. As for the number 1 category, unfortunately, he probably is near the bottom though I still dont think he's the worst. He's definitiely not the worst in ability but in terms of ability potential to actual performance he may be the worst number 1

Antonio Bryant underperformed this year. The Falcons or Bucs dont have one receiver I would trade for Chambers, Berrian is a one year wonder, the Vikings have noone. I dont think Eric Parker is any better though he probably had a better year, same with Kennison, The Jags and Titans dont have receivers that you can categorically say are better than Chambers, The Ravens Clayton is having a breakout year but will it continue for his career and there is noone on the Patriots I would take over Chambers so Chambers is somewhere around 20-24 in terms of number 1 receivers from an eyeball test

Totally agree. He isn't the worst WR in terms of ability or even production. But when you talk about number 1 WRs throughout the league, he is at the bottom of that list in production.
 

flintsilver7

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1) A quarterback will generally throw to an open receiver.
2) A quarterback who insists on throwing will generally throw to his primary receiver even if he is covered.
3) The primary receiver will generally have the best defenive player(s) assigned to him.


1 is true.
2 is not necessarily true and shouldn't be. That situation usually results in a checkdown.
3 is not at all true. Most teams line up a CB on either side of the field and they guard whoever shows up across from them.

Two should not be true, but it frequently is. What varies is the degree to which a quarterback will force a ball. Peyton Manning has a good enough line that he usually can check all of his receivers twice and then throw the ball away; Harrington has neither the time nor the quarterback intellect to do so. I make the case that when a ball is forced into coverage, it's generally headed towards the primary receiver.

Three we disagree on - I think this is most definitely true. This might not be true with the old Dolphins (Surtain and Madison) or the current Chiefs (Law and Surtain) or the current Eagles (Brown and Sheppard), but teams will generally make an effort to match up with the offense. Surely you notice that linebackers or even defensive ends are the ones who cover tight ends and running backs while cornerbacks generally search out the best receiver. Against Jacksonville, Chambers was matched up against Mathis most of the game. Last year against Buffalo, Chambers was matched up most of the game with Jabari Greer. This is perhaps why he had 15 catches and 238 yards - Clements was guarding somebody else. It does not hold true in all cases, but in most cases the #1 receiver will more often than not be matched against the defense's best coverage guy.

However, it is far more likely that a good quarterback will succeed without receivers than a good wide receiver will succeed without a quarterback.
No reason to think that. Furthermore, every "good" wide receiver has put up numbers that blow Chambers out of the water.

And every "good" wide receiver has had a better quarterback than Chambers. Consider your WR ratings - if you associate each receiver, in order of DPAR, with their associated QB DPAR, you will see an obvious trend. Consider the following:

Average QB DPAR Rank by Receiver DPAR Rank:
1-10: 8.8
11-20: 11.6
21-30: 18.8
31-40: 15.2
41-50: 18
51-60: 25.8
61-70: 28.9
71-82: 30.3

The one outlying group (31-40) includes Brady, Roethlisberger, McNabb, McNair, Favre, and Pennington, all of which have above-average DPAR rankings. I stand by my original point that the statistics and performance of a receiver are inextricably tied to their quarterback.

The absolute best thing a quarterback can do is hit his receiver in stride. In recent memory Chris Chambers has been hit in stride twice - both passes from Sage Rosenfels and both 70+ yard touchdowns. Hit a receiver in stride as a good quarterback can do and his yards per catch will improve.
That's just silly, my friend. What about the second Jets game where Harrington threw Chambers a deep ball that went right through his hands in stride? Was that because the ball was too wet and Chambers was afraid of it? Come on. That's just the most recent example I can think of.

I don't recall excusing that. It was not an easy catch - a deep pass along the sideline - but it did go right through his hands. In any case it was marked as a drop as well it should have been. Oddly enough, Marvin Harrison did that on Saturday. It was at least as easy to catch as the Chambers ball and it went right through his hands like that.

I should mention again that simply because a ball is caught does not mean it was well thrown.
And the opposite is true. Just because a ball isn't caught does not mean that it was poorly thrown.

Nowhere did I state that "oh, by the way, the inverse of this statement is also true." I am well aware of that. Having watched the Dolphins, though, I can say that while they did, as a whole, have problems with catching the ball this year, there were plenty of balls thrown by their QB merry-go-round that were not catchable.

I watched both Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison drop well-thrown passes this past weekend. They were open and had to make minimal adjustments to the thrown ball. Hey, where do they rank on your DPAR list? My point here is that even the best players will make horrible mistakes
They're really good! Why? Because they catch 63% and 64% of the passes thrown to them, and they run for more yards when they make these catches. If they caught 39% of the passes thrown in their direction, they wouldn't be as good.

Do you listen to anything I say? You're equivocating Joey Harrington with Peyton Manning. Are they really good because they're really good or do they really look that way because Peyton Manning, the best quarterback in the league, is throwing to them?

They catch more passes because Peyton Manning is a career 64% passer (never having completed less than 62% since his rookie season) and has a career rating of 94.4. In other words, he's absolutely outstanding. They get more yards after the catch for two reasons other than their innate ability - one, they have the smartest quarterback in the game who can somehow design plays at the line that get them 10 yards open and two, they have one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the league who can hit them in stride - or as close to in stride as possible.

Though some points may be arguable and the differences between them are negligible at times (one position for CIN and IND receivers, for example) it stands to reason that these statistics are not perfect. One cannot seriously make the case that they would rather have Arnaz Battle than Antonio Bryant or D.J. Hackett rather than Darrell Jackson. Yet, that's what the statistics suggest. This occurs with enough frequency to warrant skepticism.
It's fine to be skeptical, but it's also fine to be skeptical in the other direction and point out that maybe D.J. Hackett is, in fact, better than Darrell Jackson.

Great idea. I'm sure that's it. I'm sure that in 2004, Brandon Stokley was the 5th best receiver in the NFL. Nate Burleson was worlds better than Randy Moss (6th vs. 22nd). I'm sure that in 2005 Chris Chambers was really the 62nd best receiver in the league, behind the offensive juggernauts of Kevin Curtis, Ricky Proehl, Bobby Engram, Troy Brown, Doug Gabriel, Brian Finneran, Az-Zahir Hakim, Antonio Chatman, Samie Parker, Josh Reed, Shaun McDonald, Justin Gage, and Corey Bradford, to name a few. If only we had selected Justin Gage to the Pro Bowl! Imagine the viewers that would have drawn had they known they chose the 58th best receiver instead of the 62nd.

They're your statistics, not mine, so I don't have to accept them as ground truth.

Yes, McMichael has been underutilized as well. I thought this was about Chambers, though.

Useless but I couldn't help myself.

However, it is generally considered here that offensive lines do not significantly impact the wide receivers. That said, when you mention skipped passes, you fail to differentiate between a good quarterback and an awful one. All receivers have to deal with poorly thrown passes. However, the DEGREE to which receivers have to deal with these things depends on the quarterback. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Joey Harrington throws the same number - even roughly the same number - of bad passes as does Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer.
Of course they throw fewer.

Here's the thing, though. The difference in poorly-thrown passes between Harrington and Manning/Palmer does not even come close to reaching the difference between Chambers' level of performance and Marvin Harrison or Chad Jackson's.

The other thing? This has happened for every Dolphin quarterback. Again, you can point to Chambers "good" year last year, but he wasn't very good. Yes, he was selected to the Pro Bowl. Why? Because he had 166 throws in his direction! If he'd been thrown the ball 85 times, he would have had 40 catches and 700 yards and never sniffed the Pro Bowl.

Yes, he did score 11 touchdowns, and those are important. But does he have a "nose for the end zone" or is it just random? Did he lose that nose for the end zone this year? Did he forget it at home two years ago?

You can argue all day what the difference is on the field for the top-ranked quarterback (101.0 rating, 1st in DPAR) and 29th ranked quarterback (68.2 rating, 29th in DPAR). Personally, I think it's pretty significant. Having watched a lot of Dolphins and Colts games, it's patently ludicrous to expect Chambers to match Johnson or Harrison or Wayne when he has Harrington throwing him the ball.

You're STILL clinging to the "times targeted" statistic. I mentioned in another thread sometime in the recent past how there was less of a drop-off in Frerotte's completion percentage when throwing to Chambers compared to Harrison/Manning, for example. Considering that Frerotte, a historically inaccurate quarterback, was often lucky to hit air when he threw, Chambers' catch percentage relative to his quarterback's accuracy was closer than many others. Times targeted - or "receiver attempts - is a stupid statistic because it does not necessarily correlate with catchable balls. Using a rough estimate (QB completion percentage) 166 passes from Gus Frerotte is equivalent to 132 from Peyton Manning. You can't compare wide receivers using the same measuring stick unless they have comparable quarterbacks. Nobody in their right mind would write off Michael Jenkins or Braylon Edwards because they don't put up numbers like Chad Johnson or Marvin Harrison. You can't compare them for one simple reason: they don't have good quarterbacks.

By the way, I do not believe that touchdowns are a telling statistic for wide receivers.

I can't believe that this is not obvious to somebody who works this closely with statistics. The quarterback has, by far, the most impact on his own statistics as well as the most impact on receiver statistics. Look at Marvin Harrison's substantial increase - in Peyton Manning's first year, he had less than 1000 yards and less than 10 touchdowns; in the eight seasons since then, he has had at least 1100 yards and at least 10 touchdowns. Odd, no? Houshmandzadeh was an unknown of no real value until Carson Palmer came along. Roy Williams suddenly had a massive increase in yards and receptions in 2006 - all from the marginal but not insignificant addition of Jon Kitna.
You're attributing quarterback performance to this when the likely reason is wide receiver aging patterns. Compare their performance to wide receivers who played with the same quarterback for the first five years of their career and you'll likely find little to no difference unless you hand-pick the guys, as you did above.

Aging patterns? Come on. You're again saying in one way or another that all quarterbacks are equal. Roy Williams would not have the same numbers with Joey Harrington there. And for that matter, Chad Johnson and Houshmandzadeh would not have the same numbers if Akili Smith or Jon Kitna was still under center for Cincinnati. There are a lot of things I could say about Chambers if you want to play that game. For example, since 2001, Marvin Harrison has played with one quarterback and one offensive coordinator. Chris Chambers has played with at least 4 offensive coordinators and 8 quarterbacks. It becomes difficult to play with any kind of consistency when there is none around you - this you don't need statistics for, just logic.
 

flintsilver7

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I did and the board just ATE MY POST.

That was so uncool. I only got to 47, though. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on Bertrand Berrian and Patrick Crayton, or else it would have been 50.

In short, please check out the WR metrics page at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/wr.php.

There, you'll find the 81 wide receivers who have performed better than Chris Chambers this year and been the recipient of 50 attempts or more.

Some of them play with awful quarterbacks, some great ones; some run slants and curls, others go deep.

They all played better than Chris Chambers.

No, they all had higher DPAR ratings than Chris Chambers. There is a significant difference as I've been contending.
 

flintsilver7

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I did and the board just ATE MY POST.

That was so uncool. I only got to 47, though. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on Bertrand Berrian and Patrick Crayton, or else it would have been 50.

In short, please check out the WR metrics page at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/wr.php.

There, you'll find the 81 wide receivers who have performed better than Chris Chambers this year and been the recipient of 50 attempts or more.

Some of them play with awful quarterbacks, some great ones; some run slants and curls, others go deep.

They all played better than Chris Chambers.

By the way, this site seems to have a tendency to log you out after some time. When writing long posts, make sure to copy your entire post before clicking "Submit Reply," otherwise it might be lost.
 

Section126

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I did and the board just ATE MY POST.

That was so uncool. I only got to 47, though. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on Bertrand Berrian and Patrick Crayton, or else it would have been 50.

In short, please check out the WR metrics page at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/wr.php.

There, you'll find the 81 wide receivers who have performed better than Chris Chambers this year and been the recipient of 50 attempts or more.

Some of them play with awful quarterbacks, some great ones; some run slants and curls, others go deep.

They all played better than Chris Chambers.



the URL is not working.

You can do it.

post the list...I made a list of my top 50 current nba players with honorable mentions and 2nd tier...

Go ahead and post the list. I can't wait to see it.
 

billbarnwell

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I now had a second post eaten. No fun.

flintsilver, you bring up some valid points that explain away some of the problems Chambers experienced, but nowhere near enough to cover all of them. Your defenses of Chambers would be reasonable if they were the case in a single season, or even two seasons. But he's had trouble catching the ball his whole career.

Our game charting project's found that #1 CBs don't often get matched up against #1 WRs. There are exceptions -- Champ Bailey, noticeably -- but it's a relatively minor point anyway.

With the game against the Jets, you said "In recent memory Chris Chambers has been hit in stride twice". I would call a game two weeks ago recent memory, much more so than last season. As for it being a deep pass, if Chambers is really a good wide receiver who's supposed to be running these deep routes, well, he better catch those.

You're making the same arguments I've refuted in my initial piece. You can blame one quarterback for Chris Chambers performance. It's understandable. You can't, though, blame six. At some point, Chambers is the problem, not them.

<i> They're your statistics, not mine, so I don't have to accept them as ground truth.</i>

Of course. I'm also not familiar with the concepts of variance or sample size, which is why I take them as ground truth.

Oh wait -- nope.

Your mock argument that the Pro Bowl voters should have taken Justin Gage instead of Chris Chambers is interesting. Gage had a worse QB, Kyle Orton, throwing to him. If he had gotten 166 throws, he probably would've made the Pro Bowl.

<i>Times targeted - or "receiver attempts - is a stupid statistic because it does not necessarily correlate with catchable balls. Using a rough estimate (QB completion percentage) 166 passes from Gus Frerotte is equivalent to 132 from Peyton Manning.</i>

Now you're just flat out making up stuff. Sorry. I cut out here.

It doesn't correlate with catchable balls, no, but it doesn't correlate with horribly-run routes, either. You're attributing all of the blame to Harrington, or Fiedler, or any of the other quarterbacks. I'm attributing it to one person, not six. Occam's Razor.

As for the aging patterns bit, again, do the research. Compare wide receivers who played with two QBs to wide receivers who played with one. They'll grow at roughly the same rate.

As for Section126, congratulations on posting your list of NBA players. You can find the WR stats page at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php. I apologize for the mislinked URL.
 

califishfan

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I Agree Chambers Sucks... We Need To Get Rid Of Him And Booker Abd Start Wes And Draft A Big Receiver Like Dwayne Jarrett From Usc Who Is 6'5 And Not Scared Of Going In The Middle. That Should Solidify The Offense With A Helthy Duante.
 

miamiron

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I know he's a tight end, but he's got to be better than Jeremy Stevens at least. :evil:

TO has dropped a whole lot of passes this year, but I always considered Glenn a better WR anyway.

I think Chambers was never really the same after that concussion in Denver a few years ago. He's still kind of loopy...:lol:

:dolphins:

Speaking of TO
Did you know that he had more TDs than Chambers,Booker,Welker,and Hagan(all added together)
More TDs than our whole Wr CREW!!!! sad very sad:shakeno:
 

flintsilver7

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I now had a second post eaten. No fun.

Did you remember to copy your post first? Always do that, especially if it's more than a paragraph. By the time you click "Submit Reply" you'll be asked to log in again, and nobody wants that.

flintsilver, you bring up some valid points that explain away some of the problems Chambers experienced, but nowhere near enough to cover all of them. Your defenses of Chambers would be reasonable if they were the case in a single season, or even two seasons. But he's had trouble catching the ball his whole career.
Yes, he has, and that's why I don't say he's the best receiver. He's flawed (as are all players), but I still think he has a lot of untapped potential and is nowhere near the worst receiver in football.

Our game charting project's found that #1 CBs don't often get matched up against #1 WRs. There are exceptions -- Champ Bailey, noticeably -- but it's a relatively minor point anyway.
That depends on the defensive scheme, but I've noticed more often than not the primary receiver gets the primary cornerback. The more pronounced the different in talent between the two cornerbacks, the more often you'll see the matchup differences.

With the game against the Jets, you said "In recent memory Chris Chambers has been hit in stride twice". I would call a game two weeks ago recent memory, much more so than last season. As for it being a deep pass, if Chambers is really a good wide receiver who's supposed to be running these deep routes, well, he better catch those.
Yes, he had better, considering he doesn't get many catchable balls thrown his way (especially not deep passes). I'm not making excuses for that play or any other. I had mentioned that lots of receivers - especially elite receivers - make noticeable errors like that.

You're making the same arguments I've refuted in my initial piece. You can blame one quarterback for Chris Chambers performance. It's understandable. You can't, though, blame six. At some point, Chambers is the problem, not them.
I fail to see how you refuted those arguments. You keep bringing up Jeff Blake. Blake has a career rating of 78.0, which is higher than the QB rating of six of the quarterbacks Chambers has played with. (In 2000, Blake had a QB rating of 82.7.) Of the other two (Griese and Culpepper) both were below the 78.0 mark as Dolphins (they accounted for nine games in total). I should note that Griese and Culpepper threw seven touchdowns between them as Dolphins; Chambers caught four of them.

Now you make the claim that in 2002, Chambers had roughly the same quarterback performance as Joe Horn. Scratch the surface and you see that's it not as close as you might think. In 2002 the Dolphins quarterbacks (Lucas, Rosenfels, and Fiedler) combined for a 79.3 rating. In 2000 the Saints quarterbacks (Brooks, Blake, and one pass by Williams) combined for a QB rating of 84.3. This season, that would be the difference between J.P. Losman at 11 (84.9) and Jon Kitna at 17 (79.9). Not world-breaking, but certainly significant as it represents one above-average and one roughly at the league average.

The rest of your comparisons seem to indicate that Chambers did better or roughly the same as the other primary receivers dealing with bad quarterbacks. The only other negative comparison would be Moulds and Chambers, but I would contend that Bledsoe was a more accurate quarterback than Frerotte and the five-point difference in QB rating does not go unnoticed.

They're your statistics, not mine, so I don't have to accept them as ground truth.

Of course. I'm also not familiar with the concepts of variance or sample size, which is why I take them as ground truth.

Oh wait -- nope.

Your mock argument that the Pro Bowl voters should have taken Justin Gage instead of Chris Chambers is interesting. Gage had a worse QB, Kyle Orton, throwing to him. If he had gotten 166 throws, he probably would've made the Pro Bowl.
Gage had poor statistics even as an afterthought. You can't say what would've happened if Justin Gage were thrown to 166 times because if he were, he would be a primary receiver. He would've been covered more, for one. Still, Gage was thrown to 55 times - multiply his stats by three, and you've got 93 catches, 1039 yards, and 6 touchdowns. This would've put him at 5th in the NFC in catches, 10th in yards, and 15th in touchdowns. Hardly Pro Bowl rankings. This doesn't even consider that statistics obviously do not scale because Gage wasn't a primary receiver.

Times targeted - or "receiver attempts - is a stupid statistic because it does not necessarily correlate with catchable balls. Using a rough estimate (QB completion percentage) 166 passes from Gus Frerotte is equivalent to 132 from Peyton Manning.

Now you're just flat out making up stuff. Sorry. I cut out here.

It doesn't correlate with catchable balls, no, but it doesn't correlate with horribly-run routes, either. You're attributing all of the blame to Harrington, or Fiedler, or any of the other quarterbacks. I'm attributing it to one person, not six. Occam's Razor.
Making stuff up? It's actually quite simple. My point is that for Gus Frerotte and Peyton Manning to hit the same number of cardboard-cutout receivers, Frerotte would have to throw 32 more passes because he has terrible accuracy.

Listen, Agent Scully, while Occam's Razor is a good explanation for a lot of things, it doesn't fit here. You're basing all of this on your DPAR statistic and not, say, the fact that Chambers has been the leading receiver on the Dolphins, I think, every year except for one (2006). While that's not saying much, it is important - especially considering he twice led former Pro Bowler Marty Booker. (Hey, there's a guy who suddenly "got worse" when he had A.J. Feeley and Gus Frerotte around. Why is that?)

As for the aging patterns bit, again, do the research. Compare wide receivers who played with two QBs to wide receivers who played with one. They'll grow at roughly the same rate.
That depends on the quarterback, and I'm sticking with that one. I cannot fathom how you could say that Roy Williams did not improve because he had a better quarterback this year or that Marty Booker dropped off for some reason other than bad quarterbacking.
 

billbarnwell

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I haven't said the words "Jeff Blake" (since my initial piece, so "keep bringing up" is kinda strange) or used DPAR as my only explanation.

I'm sorry, but Occam's Razor does fit.

You point out that Chambers has been the Dolphins' leading receiver and I point out that's because he gets the ball more than anyone else, by far. I point out that no one else who gets the ball that much, across the league, puts up remotely similar catch percentages. This costs the Dolphins yards, points, and eventually, games. You say it's because of the six quarterbacks. I point out similar quarterbacks working with similar wide receivers don't see those WRs put up the same numbers, and that it might be the one wide receiver's fault and not the six QB's. Occam's Razor.
 

flintsilver7

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I haven't said the words "Jeff Blake" (since my initial piece, so "keep bringing up" is kinda strange) or used DPAR as my only explanation.

I'm sorry, but Occam's Razor does fit.

You point out that Chambers has been the Dolphins' leading receiver and I point out that's because he gets the ball more than anyone else, by far. I point out that no one else who gets the ball that much, across the league, puts up remotely similar catch percentages. This costs the Dolphins yards, points, and eventually, games. You say it's because of the six quarterbacks. I point out similar quarterbacks working with similar wide receivers don't see those WRs put up the same numbers, and that it might be the one wide receiver's fault and not the six QB's. Occam's Razor.

One last time:

A receiver being "targeted" a certain number of times does not mean he got the ball that many times. The quarterback might have tried (or the scorer decided he was the nearest receiver) but that doesn't mean he got it or even had a chance at it.

Occam's Razor does not hold because not all quarterbacks are the same. I don't know why I have to tell you that. You can say that some quarterback is similar but that doesn't make it true.

I'll say this as others have said as well - watch the games. If you're going to write an article that sounds like you have a personal vendetta against a player you owe it to him to at least attempt to watch the games. You'll find as many of us have that Chambers leads the league in the imaginary statistic of "uncatchable balls thrown in his general direction."

http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061599701#post1061599701

Consider that. Watch the game and you'll see what happened. One ball was catchable. He didn't catch it, he dropped it - hence most of us saying he had a bad year. But then there's people who do nothing but read the play-by-play and tell us how bad Chambers is.

Read that list of balls thrown toward Chambers and tell me ONE other receiver that has to deal with that.


If it's Chambers that's making the quarterbacks bad (where did that come from, anyway) why have you not mentioned a word about Booker? He's a former Pro Bowler who isn't doing well here. He's actually the one guy on the Dolphins who had a track record somewhere else. When Frerotte came in and played here, he did about as well as he would be expected to do (-3.4 from his career rating) considering he hadn't been a starter in 10 years.
 

billbarnwell

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Agreed, last time:

I've watched plenty of Dolphins games. That's where my opinion of Chambers came from. Not the stats. The stats back it up.

Other receivers have to put up with bad quarterbacks. No one does as bad as Chambers does -- if they do, they're a mediocre WR. He's not a special case. Other wide receivers have to put up with QBs as poor. You can point to your analysis of a game and that's fine. Watch Santana Moss for a whole game. Watch Muhsin Muhammad last year. Off the top of my head, they have to put up with worse QBs.

Why haven't I mentioned Booker? Because Booker's had half as many throws in his direction as Chambers has. If Chambers only got 80 throws in his direction a year, it wouldn't be a big deal.

You can say that some quarterback is similar but that doesn't make it true.

Hate to repeat myself again, but all the evidence points to the fact that they are. Again, it's not six quarterbacks' fault. It's Chris Chambers'. Sorry. I can repeat myself all I want and point out the obvious evidence over and over again, and we can watch Chambers catch 60 balls out of 170 next year with a new quarterback and wait for him to break out. Maybe when he's 34 or 35, he will.
 
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