Article on Beck

[dlockz]

Yeah I just stuck my finger out and the first letter I touched was the only sentence I read. Seriously, maybe you should take time off all Beck threads.

As should you I guess. I only stated a basic fact that size has a place in drafting somewhat and you went off in a completely differant direction.

 

[Vaark]

Well I guess you were quite wrong in your assertion of Ryan Myopia at least in my part because I am fully behind this front office's draft choice as our future starting qb. I still think Ryan is a better prospect unlike the people last year that vehemently would deny that any other prospect could possibly be better than John Beck no matter what the scouts and draftboards said.

I went back 20 years which I think is more indicative of the current era of football being played. IF you go back futher the of course you could say Brady and Young but I would definately rank Brady over Young due to what he has done at the same point in his career as compared to Steve Young who was fairly awful until he had a team of all pros around him. The I guess you could bring up McMahon who would basically cancel out Harbaugh both similar type careers. All you have left for BYU after that is Gifford Neilson a solid backup so he was basically Todd Collins. That still leaves you Grbac and Griese which are far better than any other BYU qb's and were solid starters so quite a cut above Ty Detmer. Then you have Beck and Henne who at this point have proven nothing. Byu at one point was a major producer of NFL qb's but that well has considerably dried up since Steve Young and the decline and departure of Lavell Edwards.

I did like his pick (as I would have been happy with Brohm also) and hope you're right about Henne because I'm rooting for him as I am all our QBs. ...But looking at it empirically, the odds are against him being a blue chip starting QB if we're continuing to use college programs as a criterion. I stand by my assertion that Michigan, considering its high profile, elite conference play and general success of other position-players, statistically does not produce top tier QBs with the ironic exception of 6th round pick Brady. If you're the old Ravens team and wanted a Dilfer-like game manager who could just stand back and not get in the way, then maybe Grbac and Griese for a year or two in his past might have fit the bill. However, do you really think that if able to foretell the future there would be few if any teams drafting for an elite, game-changing QB who would waste any higher than a 3rd rounder on any past Michigan QB aside from Brady? You've maintained that Michigan can pick and choose the best high school QB talent, but if so, they're not unlike a meat grinder where you feed in sirloin and get back ground chuck. Again, hopefully both Beck and Henne will turn out to be successsful anomalies from "lesser conferences "and/or QB pro preparation college programs.

 

[NewPhinPhan]

Beck has proven that he has it in him to forget the bad and move on. His 1st year at BYU he was atrocious as well. He was fresh off his 2 year mission, and the current coach, who had judgement problems much like Cameron, threw him into the games way, way too early. His 1st three snaps as a div 1 qb were fumble, sack, interception.

Later on in his 1st game, he scrambled right into the path of a linebacker who knocked him out cold. After waking up, he was helped off the field, and I'm sure he had to wonder if he was up to the challenge of playing Div 1 football.

Beck survived, the coaches were all fired, he vowed to improve, studied his arse off, and became a great QB.

His history at working through his struggles will help him here. I fully expect him to shake it off and come out swinging. He is a winner, and he does it with the right tools and a tremendously high work ethic.

Can't wait to see him this year.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Zaph. I don't know anyone who has the ability to shake off struggles better than John Beck. The majority of Dolphin fans have no clue as to what he struggled thru at BYU prior to becoming the QB we all know and love. Anyone writing him off at this point is just ignorant, pure and simple. Ignorant of his fighiting spirit, desire to PERFECT his game, and solid determination.

Oh, and he's also extremely accurate with the football. Anyone following his career isn't stupid enough to ignore this. Nor his deceptive strength (need I remind people of his 2nd highest velocity in the 06 draft?) and toughness.

The article told him to shake off the worries of his first year. It's a little pessimistic in it's viewpoint. Anyone who knows Beck knows he's already done that. He's moving on, toward the new year. Already showing leadership by "coaching" a rookie and a 6+ year veteran???? Oh yeah.

Just wait and see.:D

 

[Lappy]

I like Beck, I like Henne. I would love to see one of these two emerge as our fanchise guy. But....

I think, actually, I know it lies in the hands of our offensive line. If we get solid line play and support for one of these two types of players they will succeed. They have the tools and the drive to be great, they just need O-line support to let it shine.

If the line plays well our running game should be able to get one of the two in great opportunities to make plays.

I'm excited to see what will unfold this season.

 

[NewPhinPhan]

Well I guess you were quite wrong in your assertion of Ryan Myopia at least in my part because I am fully behind this front office's draft choice as our future starting qb. I still think Ryan is a better prospect unlike the people last year that vehemently would deny that any other prospect could possibly be better than John Beck no matter what the scouts and draftboards said.

I went back 20 years which I think is more indicative of the current era of football being played. IF you go back futher the of course you could say Brady and Young but I would definately rank Brady over Young due to what he has done at the same point in his career as compared to Steve Young who was fairly awful until he had a team of all pros around him. The I guess you could bring up McMahon who would basically cancel out Harbaugh both similar type careers. All you have left for BYU after that is Gifford Neilson a solid backup so he was basically Todd Collins. That still leaves you Grbac and Griese which are far better than any other BYU qb's and were solid starters so quite a cut above Ty Detmer. Then you have Beck and Henne who at this point have proven nothing. Byu at one point was a major producer of NFL qb's but that well has considerably dried up since Steve Young and the decline and departure of Lavell Edwards.

You left out Marc Wilson, who was more than a backup. Sure, it goes back to the 70's but there was a reason BYU was called the QB factory.

 

[NewPhinPhan]

One arguement about conference strength is left out here, as well.

If a conference is to be labelled as "weaker", you have to suggest that the players are all weaker, no?

If that's true, then Beck would have to be THAT much more talented to do what he did than a QB at a "top-tier" school with solid talent around him.

You can't argue one side without considering the other. And if Beck was that good in a "weaker" conference, how good do you think he'd have been with 5 star receivers all around him?

And yes, BYU does rank top 3 virtually every year in recruiting in the MWC. But compare that to the "talent" in other conferences. They just know how to do more with less.

Wait til this year. :-)

 

[feelthepain]

As should you I guess. I only stated a basic fact that size has a place in drafting somewhat and you went off in a completely differant direction.

Completely different direction? I just elaborated on your opinion Beck was a second round pick because he was short and because he played at BYU, like no QB pro QB ever came from that pass happy school. As if that is factual. Seriously, size plays a roll in every player drafted but it doesn't prevent players from being drafted in the first round. You just make up some silly crap.

How about team needs? Do they play a factor in where a player is drafted? How about system, Combine, Bowl gamesl and Shrine game results? You can argue any of those factor in to where a player is taken, it doesn't mean you're right. I think you trying to tell us Becks height and school determined where he was drafted is not only a farce, but quite bias. Doug Fluttie was a shrimp, but a helluva pro QB. Also if team likes a player big, short, fat, thin or stupid, they will draft him anywhere in the draft. But lets not forget, where you're drafted is hardly evidence as to what you'll become. So really what's the point in talking about where Beck was drafted and why?

 

[MarinoFishHead]

Sorry, not so ridiculous in the perspective of belittling a QB's accomplishments because you subjectively consider the MWC a minor conference when in fact Michigan and it's scary professional style offense has produced exactly as many current starters as that chit conference? (and maybe less if Smith and Beck do start this year). Just making a point that this is an ad hominem argument that's worth about as much as a Joey Harrington Fat Head.

:sidelol:

 

[Marino613]

A rant regarding the repeated writings revolving on the readiness of Beck at QB. (Not written in proper essay form. Sorry)

a. It is not Beck's fault we didn't draft Quinn (or Ryan)
b. It is not Beck's fault that his rookie outing was on a team that had very little experienced receiving talent
c. It is not Beck's fault that he was on a team that often had to play catch up and who couldn't stop the run
d. It is not Beck's fault that he was behind an O-line that had a hard time protecting him as a rookie.
e. Beck did NOT perform well last year
f. Beck fumbled the ball often
g. Beck had a hard time scoring TDs
h. Beck took a lot of sacks
i. Beck's circumstances (a-d) makes it hard to place his poor performance solely on his shoulders, especially as a rookie
j. Beck's poor performance (e-h) at the NFL level does not engender any inspiration in his abilities.

There is legitimate room to disagree on how much leeway you give a player due to extenuating factors/excuses before you decide that it isn't worth the effort or investment. IMHO, last season provided enough legitimate reasons to hold off declaring Beck a bust.

On the other hand, there is legitimate room to get excited by a rookie year even when the QB makes a lot of mistakes, if they show enough moments of inspired and talented play. IMHO, last season did NOT provide enough of those to declare Beck a clear NFL starting talent.

Clearly the FO and the coaches were not convinced that Beck is THE future, nor are they settled that he is a bust. Right now he is being given equal time with the starters and therefore a legitimate shot at the starting job. He has neither been benched nor has he been given the keys (like Aaron Rodgers in GB).

For the fans, debate here is way too polarized on this matter. It is totally fine to have been enamored by Beck because of his BYU days, or to be turned off by his play last year. Please keep in mind:

Beck has potential to be good ≠ Beck WILL be good
Beck's performance las year was bad ≠ Beck CAN'T be good

Somehow that gets lost on some people here and we see the following.

Common pro-Beck sentiment: We Beck fans are being real because we think Beck has potential, but the Anti-Beck lobby has decided that Beck has "shown" he can't cut in the big leagues and will never be good and that he should be cut from the team or at least benched in favor of McCown or Henne now before we waste more time on him. They are bad fans who want Beck to play poorly rather than see the Dolphins succeed.

Common anti-Beck sentiment: We non-Beck fans are realistic because we don't see any convincing reason to believe Beck will be good, but the pro-Beck lobby has decided that Beck is the next coming of Jesus H. Unitas and thinks we should treat him like he won the starting job and not rotate McCown or Henne in with the first team. they are bad fans who would rather support a bad QB and/or see Henne/McCown play badly rather than see the Dolphins succeed.

Maybe there are one or two extremists on this site, but most people on BOTH sides have repeated again and again that they will support whoever wins the starting job.

My rant ends in a question. Will anyone here really be totally shocked if the other side ends up being correct? If Beck either becomes the clear starter or plays backup and fizzles out? (and don't put words in someone else's mouth! I hate it when people say "you are the type of person who probably thinks..." That is unfair and asinine)

If you read this far, wow! Thanks for playing.

 

[dlockz]

Completely different direction? I just elaborated on your opinion Beck was a second round pick because he was short and because he played at BYU, like no QB pro QB ever came from that pass happy school. As if that is factual. Seriously, size plays a roll in every player drafted but it doesn't prevent players from being drafted in the first round. You just make up some silly crap.

How about team needs? Do they play a factor in where a player is drafted? How about system, Combine, Bowl gamesl and Shrine game results? You can argue any of those factor in to where a player is taken, it doesn't mean you're right. I think you trying to tell us Becks height and school determined where he was drafted is not only a farce, but quite bias. Doug Fluttie was a shrimp, but a helluva pro QB. Also if team likes a player big, short, fat, thin or stupid, they will draft him anywhere in the draft. But lets not forget, where you're drafted is hardly evidence as to what you'll become. So really what's the point in talking about where Beck was drafted and why?

I never said Beck was drafted lower because he was short. I think Age played more a factor, he was not ideal size but I never thought his height was that much of a factor. You are correct alot of factors come into play when drafting a qb. My knock on Beck has always been that his offensive system makes qb's look much better than they may be. In his case even more so because because his best year TE and Rb's were his top receivers. I dont doubt that Cam Cameron loved John Beck but fortunately that regime is gone and we have no clue whether Beck would have been the choice last year of this regime. For all the talk on this board of Ireland loving Beck in last year's draft which is high subjective they did not draft a qb last year and the highest they were gonna draft him at best was third round. We do know that this regime really likes what they see in Henne hence they drafted him and seemed quite pleased with thier pick. None of this means Beck will fail as does coming from a conference that plays lesser competition it does mean his window of development is much smaller than it was with Cameron as coach.

 

[Kiick72]

I never said Beck was drafted lower because he was short. I think Age played more a factor, he was not ideal size but I never thought his height was that much of a factor. You are correct alot of factors come into play when drafting a qb. My knock on Beck has always been that his offensive system makes qb's look much better than they may be. In his case even more so because because his best year TE and Rb's were his top receivers. I dont doubt that Cam Cameron loved John Beck but fortunately that regime is gone and we have no clue whether Beck would have been the choice last year of this regime. For all the talk on this board of Ireland loving Beck in last year's draft which is high subjective they did not draft a qb last year and the highest they were gonna draft him at best was third round. We do know that this regime really likes what they see in Henne hence they drafted him and seemed quite pleased with thier pick. None of this means Beck will fail as does coming from a conference that plays lesser competition it does mean his window of development is much smaller than it was with Cameron as coach.

That is a good point about the offensive system making a QB appear better than they are. With so many teams switching to spread offense in college I wonder how NFL ready many of these QB's will be and how hard it will be to evaluate their actual skill set. How many Joey Harringtons are teams going to have to go through to find one that can make the transition to the pro game? It's like 15 years ago with the run and shoot none of those QB's ever really made the transition.

 

[dlockz]

One arguement about conference strength is left out here, as well.

If a conference is to be labelled as "weaker", you have to suggest that the players are all weaker, no?

If that's true, then Beck would have to be THAT much more talented to do what he did than a QB at a "top-tier" school with solid talent around him.

You can't argue one side without considering the other. And if Beck was that good in a "weaker" conference, how good do you think he'd have been with 5 star receivers all around him?

And yes, BYU does rank top 3 virtually every year in recruiting in the MWC. But compare that to the "talent" in other conferences. They just know how to do more with less.

Wait til this year. :-)

Look I actually like BYU but doing more with less against who. In conference Beck has a beastly 4 to 1 or better td to int ratio. Out of conf it was 1 to 1. Byu has a mediocre out of conference record and it is not like they only play studs out of conference UCLA was barely an above .500 team. last year. If Beck had 5 star receivers all around him they might have been wasted since he mainly threw to the rb's and TEs.
BYU is like a top 50 team in total talent and they have played well against some decent schools but what teams that were so good that they knocked off. Im not going to totally trash BYU because I actually pull for them but overall they have been a much lesser team outside the conference than Utah. They run a smart ball control pass offense much like they always have. They usually have better athletes on thier line then the teams they face so they are fairly adept at running the ball at times.
David Carr was awesome in college and really gave some big schools some headaches and we still have not seen stardom from him and he was a much better prospect than Beck so what makes Beck this cant miss prospect in your mind.

 

[feelthepain]

A rant regarding the repeated writings revolving on the readiness of Beck at QB. (Not written in proper essay form. Sorry)

In condensed form...a view of the situation from a fan riding the fence.

We can argue all day long, but it's up to the players. When they play they will determine who the starter is, there's not much that can be said till then. I just have a problem with those that think they have seen all there is to see in a player just 4.5 games into their pro career. The NFL college scouts aren't asked to look at a players first five games of their college career and report what they know so teams can set their boards for obvious reasons. So why would anyone use this method once the players reach the pros? It's just plain silly to think this way.

 

[dlockz]

I did like his pick (as I would have been happy with Brohm also) and hope you're right about Henne because I'm rooting for him as I am all our QBs. ...But looking at it empirically, the odds are against him being a blue chip starting QB if we're continuing to use college programs as a criterion. I stand by my assertion that Michigan, considering its high profile, elite conference play and general success of other position-players, statistically does not produce top tier QBs with the ironic exception of 6th round pick Brady. If you're the old Ravens team and wanted a Dilfer-like game manager who could just stand back and not get in the way, then maybe Grbac and Griese for a year or two in his past might have fit the bill. However, do you really think that if able to foretell the future there would be few if any teams drafting for an elite, game-changing QB who would waste any higher than a 3rd rounder on any past Michigan QB aside from Brady? You've maintained that Michigan can pick and choose the best high school QB talent, but if so, they're not unlike a meat grinder where you feed in sirloin and get back ground chuck. Again, hopefully both Beck and Henne will turn out to be successsful anomalies from "lesser conferences "and/or QB pro preparation college programs.

As CK said no college has a magic nfl qb making machine but even you must realize that Michigan is going to get better qb prospects than BYU overall and that overall they will have better NFL success just because they are getting the pick of the litter. BYU has had one 4 star qb or greater in the last decade and he transferred to UCLA when they fired Crowton. Ben Olsen. 4 qb's that made the pro bowl in 20 years is not a bad ratio espcially if you consider all the top qb prospects that go to Florida, Miami and FSU and thier current lack of success in the NFL for the most part.

 

[feelthepain]

Look I actually like BYU but doing more with less against who. In conference Beck has a beastly 4 to 1 or better td to int ratio. Out of conf it was 1 to 1. Byu has a mediocre out of conference record and it is not like they only play studs out of conference UCLA was barely an above .500 team. last year. If Beck had 5 star receivers all around him they might have been wasted since he mainly threw to the rb's and TEs.
BYU is like a top 50 team in total talent and they have played well against some decent schools but what teams that were so good that they knocked off. Im not going to totally trash BYU because I actually pull for them but overall they have been a much lesser team outside the conference than Utah. They run a smart ball control pass offense much like they always have. They usually have better athletes on thier line then the teams they face so they are fairly adept at running the ball at times.
David Carr was awesome in college and really gave some big schools some headaches and we still have not seen stardom from him and he was a much better prospect than Beck so what makes Beck this cant miss prospect in your mind.

You keep trying to point out where Beck went to school. Seriously when has school attended ever been a sure fire rule for drafting for future success in the NFL? Brett Favre, Jerry Rice, Andre Reed...the list is to long to list. Stop wasting your time making an argument here, it's pointless.