Article on Beck

[dlockz]

You keep trying to point out where Beck went to school. Seriously when has school attended ever been a sure fire rule for drafting for future success in the NFL? Brett Favre, Jerry Rice, Andre Reed...the list is to long to list. Stop wasting your time making an argument here, it's pointless.

I said that made him harder to judge due to the offensive gameplan they employed at BYU. The list is longer of small school guys that did not make it so that proves nothing either way. For every Jerry Rice there is a ton of Sylvestor Morris's that fail.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

No use in sugar coating this anymore. Beck must improve significantly in year two, or he's likely a goner come 2009. It's that simple in my opinion....

PHINZ RULE!!!!

Blitz you're hating on beck. I'm shocked. Long live the coil!:beer1:

 

[feelthepain]

I said that made him harder to judge due to the offensive gameplan they employed at BYU. The list is longer of small school guys that did not make it so that proves nothing either way. For every Jerry Rice there is a ton of Sylvestor Morris's that fail.

Yeah and Big name schools who run pro style offenses produce nothing but successful pro football players.:rolleyes2:

You're trying as hard as you can to find something, anything to make your argument valid. I see Matt Leinart, a big tall "prototypical NFL QB" out of USC one of the most pro style offenses in the college game still seraching for a spot in the NFL. What excuses are you going to make for him? Coaching, supporting cast, luck, sun in his eyes? What? He sure as heck hasn't been Mr. Lights out! And he was a first round pick, from a National Championship team.

To date you have not posted one single post that gives anyone reason to agree with your argument Beck should not be a starting QB based on his preformance from last year.

 

[dlockz]

Yeah and Big name schools who run pro style offenses produce nothing but successful pro football players.:rolleyes2:

You're trying as hard as you can to find something, anything to make your argument valid. I see Matt Leinart, a big tall "prototypical NFL QB" out of USC one of the most pro style offenses in the college game still seraching for a spot in the NFL. What excuses are you going to make for him? Coaching, supporting cast, luck, sun in his eyes? What? He sure as heck hasn't been Mr. Lights out! And he was a first round pick.

To date you have not posted one single post that gives anyone reason to agree with your argument Beck should not be a starting QB based on his preformance from last year.

I have never saif that Beck should not be the starting qb but based on what he did last year hell no he should not be. Fortunately for him it will be based on what he shows in camp and beyond. I think Beck has a chance to be our starter this year. I personally think all three qb;s will start some games this year. I just think Henne will be our long term starter. I have no prediction on who will start this year although I think it will be McCown.

As for Leinhart Im not making any excuses but he did break his collarbone last year. i think Leinhart will be a solid pro but I actually have never bashed Beckn or leinhart for thier pro perfmance as of yet.

 

[feelthepain]

I have never saif that Beck should not be the starting qb but based on what he did last year hell no he should not be. Fortunately for him it will be based on what he shows in camp and beyond. I think Beck has a chance to be our starter this year. I personally think all three qb;s will start some games this year. I just think Henne will be our long term starter. I have no prediction on who will start this year although I think it will be McCown.

As for Leinhart Im not making any excuses but he did break his collarbone last year. i think Leinhart will be a solid pro but I actually have never bashed Beckn or leinhart for thier pro perfmance as of yet.

Oh so now it's not last year? OK, whatever!

 

[MarinoFishHead]

Beck will blow up this year, just have a gut feeling about this whole new offensive scheme. I see him leading the "passing yards" every sunday. Go Beck Go Dolphins!!

 

[Vaark]

As CK said no college has a magic nfl qb making machine but even you must realize that Michigan is going to get better qb prospects than BYU overall and that overall they will have better NFL success just because they are getting the pick of the litter. BYU has had one 4 star qb or greater in the last decade and he transferred to UCLA when they fired Crowton. Ben Olsen. 4 qb's that made the pro bowl in 20 years is not a bad ratio espcially if you consider all the top qb prospects that go to Florida, Miami and FSU and thier current lack of success in the NFL for the most part.

In theory you're right, but the bottom line is still the bottom line. As it stands now, Michigan has produced one current QB you'd consider "elite" and in the last 20 years a few placeholders until someone better was found.. So whether they get the pick of the litter or not, apparently it does not necessarily translate so much into professional stardom as it does pro-level mediocrity. Now USC, like Miami in the old days, also gets the pick of the litter and they seem to manage to be competitive while preparing their QBS for the pros. Brady as a 6th rounder surprised everyone; Palmer as numero uno surprised no one.

 

[NewPhinPhan]

I never said Beck was drafted lower because he was short. I think Age played more a factor, he was not ideal size but I never thought his height was that much of a factor. You are correct alot of factors come into play when drafting a qb. My knock on Beck has always been that his offensive system makes qb's look much better than they may be. In his case even more so because because his best year TE and Rb's were his top receivers. I dont doubt that Cam Cameron loved John Beck but fortunately that regime is gone and we have no clue whether Beck would have been the choice last year of this regime. For all the talk on this board of Ireland loving Beck in last year's draft which is high subjective they did not draft a qb last year and the highest they were gonna draft him at best was third round. We do know that this regime really likes what they see in Henne hence they drafted him and seemed quite pleased with thier pick. None of this means Beck will fail as does coming from a conference that plays lesser competition it does mean his window of development is much smaller than it was with Cameron as coach.

You DO realize that BYU's system in Beck's Sr year ran almost 50% of the time, right? It's not nearly as pass-happy as everyone would like to think. Nothing like Texas Tech.

In posts past, I showed where BYU and TTech ranked, as a fair comparrison. In 06, TTech was literally 112th in rushing. BYU was nowhere near that (53rd). More middle of the pack.

BYU rushed 437 times in 06
They passed 452 times.

That's 49% Rushing, 51% passing

BYU is much more balanced than you give them credit for. It's not just a "system" that makes a QB look good.

Besides, my statement still stands regarding talent. If MWC is supposed to have less talent, how much BETTER would Beck have to be to get the stats he had? Imagine him on a Big10 team, or SEC? What would he have accomplished on such a squad, given a starting role?

The whole "system" QB just doesn't fly, when you look at the stats.

 

[Marino613]

In condensed form...a view of the situation from a fan riding the fence.

All true!

We can argue all day long, but it's up to the players. When they play they will determine who the starter is, there's not much that can be said till then.

Again all true, but one wonders why so many people have so much to say. So are you on the fence also?

I just have a problem with those that think they have seen all there is to see in a player just 4.5 games into their pro career. The NFL college scouts aren't asked to look at a players first five games of their college career and report what they know so teams can set their boards for obvious reasons. So why would anyone use this method once the players reach the pros? It's just plain silly to think this way.

True also, and it swings both ways (positive and negative. Are you sure you aren't on the fence?)

Still, players do in fact get judged based on little game time. any young player who has few if any games under their belts, especially in competition with other young players will have to be judged based on a few games. If both Henne and Beck are battling in camp, one of them will be chosen based on limited game time.

When 2 young players are competing for a position, it is completely normal that people will favor one if they like some of what they see. It is also completely normal that if they are unimpressed with what they see that they prefer to see the other player get more of a shot. So some people take that overboard, but most people don't and very few people who would prefer to see McCown or Henne actually think that Beck a lost cause. There is no basis for saying that those who are not pro beck actually mirror your straw man version of them (and vice versa of course).

I will reiterate my question in a different way - do you believe with the exception of one or two extreme individuals that people who believe or prefer to see someone other than Beck start will be horribly shocked or and disappointed if they are wrong?

 

[Zaphod]

You keep trying to point out where Beck went to school. Seriously when has school attended ever been a sure fire rule for drafting for future success in the NFL? Brett Favre, Jerry Rice, Andre Reed...the list is to long to list. Stop wasting your time making an argument here, it's pointless.

Totally.

I can't believe the arguments here. It's so stupid to even imply that Beck won't succeed because he went to a non-bcs school. Who cares, what does it matter.

I guarantee you that there would have been plenty of BCS schools that would have loved to have Beck after he had shown what he could do. Hindsight is 50/50, but no matter how you look at it he was a great college QB, and would have been for any school.

 

[WVDolphan]

I really get a chuckle at this passionate polarization behind our QB position. If we had 3 successful QB's to choose from, it would make a lot more sense to me, but we don't. What we have is 1 veteran (McCown) who has proved to have all the physical skills necessary but just isn't a good QB, yet is young and has proven to be somewhat efficient at eeking out a few wins on a bad team.

Then we have a young QB coming off a rough rookie season where he was thrown to the wolves despite losing his #1 WR (Chambers), #1 TE (Martin), #1 RB (Brown), #2 RB (Williams), and eventually #3 RB (do I even need to continue?) as well as having a #2 WR who was a very raw rookie, a RT playing LT, a rookie C, and a makeshift line. I don't think Beck showed us almost anything, but then again, it would have been hard to show us much under those circumstances. The only things I really came away with from him were that A) he needs to fix his fumbling problem, B) given time he actually was pretty accurate, and C) he was/is clearly inexperienced. Remember, a bad first season was the reason Atlanta gave up on Brett Favre--now I'm not saying Beck will ever be that caliber of a player, but I think that does illustrate that judging a QB by his poor rookie season is not a wise decision. Heck, Elway had a rough rookie year too, as did Peyton Manning. Is Beck the answer? I dunno, but that's because all I really have to go on is his rookie season, and I don't put much faith in poor performances from rookie QB's, especially on bad teams.

Henne is a rookie. Everything I said about rookie QB's in the Beck paragraph applies to Henne. I hope he is one of those guys that develops a lot each year and progresses into a top notch QB. But, I don't expect anything from him this year, except to learn. We can't keep judging QB's by the Marino standard (believe me, I know how hard it is to get those glory days out of one's head). Marino was a one-off, there simply isn't going to be another Dolphin QB that good. Griese was a hall of fame QB, and deservedly so, he was great, but Marino was simply in a class above Griese as a QB. I sincerely doubt that any of our 3 young QB's becomes a QB on par with Griese, and I'd be shocked if we ever had another QB as good as Marino, who IMHO is the greatest QB in the history of the NFL.

Look at someone like Testeverde, he was a top pick and it took him quite a few years to develop into a good QB, but as a grizzled veteran he actually became a pretty good one. Look at Rich Gannon, another late bloomer. Look at most of the QB's in the NFL, they get better in their 3rd, 5th, 8th years in the league. That learning curve is steep, and rookies start waaaaaaaaay down on that learning curve.

Personally, I like Beck's attitude, but I'd have more faith in him if the coaches and independent evaluators were saying things like "this kid has all the tools in the world" or "this kid commands respect in the huddle" or even "his accuracy is fantastic." But I keep hearing about his work ethic, his attitude ... not his ability, and that makes me wonder how high his ceiling is. Ethan Skolnick has been championing this same idea for a while now, and I just wonder how good Beck can really become? I expect significant improvement from his rookie season, and I'm sure he'll be a good veteran, but how good?

This year I expect McCown to start, he has experience, a quick release, strong arm, ability to take a hit and hold onto the ball, and will allow this regime's pick, Henne, to sit the bench and learn. But if Beck doesn't start this year, I don't see him getting much of a chance in the future.

Personally, I just want a franchise QB, and if any of these guys can become that, I'll jump on their bandwagon and toot their horn. At the moment, none of them have done enough to convince me.

Great post.

 

[WVDolphan]

A rant regarding the repeated writings revolving on the readiness of Beck at QB. (Not written in proper essay form. Sorry)

a. It is not Beck's fault we didn't draft Quinn (or Ryan)
b. It is not Beck's fault that his rookie outing was on a team that had very little experienced receiving talent
c. It is not Beck's fault that he was on a team that often had to play catch up and who couldn't stop the run
d. It is not Beck's fault that he was behind an O-line that had a hard time protecting him as a rookie.
e. Beck did NOT perform well last year
f. Beck fumbled the ball often
g. Beck had a hard time scoring TDs
h. Beck took a lot of sacks
i. Beck's circumstances (a-d) makes it hard to place his poor performance solely on his shoulders, especially as a rookie
j. Beck's poor performance (e-h) at the NFL level does not engender any inspiration in his abilities.

There is legitimate room to disagree on how much leeway you give a player due to extenuating factors/excuses before you decide that it isn't worth the effort or investment. IMHO, last season provided enough legitimate reasons to hold off declaring Beck a bust.

On the other hand, there is legitimate room to get excited by a rookie year even when the QB makes a lot of mistakes, if they show enough moments of inspired and talented play. IMHO, last season did NOT provide enough of those to declare Beck a clear NFL starting talent.

Clearly the FO and the coaches were not convinced that Beck is THE future, nor are they settled that he is a bust. Right now he is being given equal time with the starters and therefore a legitimate shot at the starting job. He has neither been benched nor has he been given the keys (like Aaron Rodgers in GB).

For the fans, debate here is way too polarized on this matter. It is totally fine to have been enamored by Beck because of his BYU days, or to be turned off by his play last year. Please keep in mind:

Beck has potential to be good ≠ Beck WILL be good
Beck's performance las year was bad ≠ Beck CAN'T be good

Somehow that gets lost on some people here and we see the following.

Common pro-Beck sentiment: We Beck fans are being real because we think Beck has potential, but the Anti-Beck lobby has decided that Beck has "shown" he can't cut in the big leagues and will never be good and that he should be cut from the team or at least benched in favor of McCown or Henne now before we waste more time on him. They are bad fans who want Beck to play poorly rather than see the Dolphins succeed.

Common anti-Beck sentiment: We non-Beck fans are realistic because we don't see any convincing reason to believe Beck will be good, but the pro-Beck lobby has decided that Beck is the next coming of Jesus H. Unitas and thinks we should treat him like he won the starting job and not rotate McCown or Henne in with the first team. they are bad fans who would rather support a bad QB and/or see Henne/McCown play badly rather than see the Dolphins succeed.

Maybe there are one or two extremists on this site, but most people on BOTH sides have repeated again and again that they will support whoever wins the starting job.

My rant ends in a question. Will anyone here really be totally shocked if the other side ends up being correct? If Beck either becomes the clear starter or plays backup and fizzles out? (and don't put words in someone else's mouth! I hate it when people say "you are the type of person who probably thinks..." That is unfair and asinine)

If you read this far, wow! Thanks for playing.

Wow! Another great post in this thread. All true.

 

[DJRoss]

How is he the only standing true dolphin qb what the heck, so Henne is less of a dolphin. I guess its all about perspective and I dont get this one.

Actually a case can be made for this argument. I wouldn't personally refer to him that way, but McCown has not played for the Dolphins, so until he actually suits up for a game, one could make the argument that he is not yet a Dolphin QB.

Henne is actually an easier case to make. Since he has not come to terms and signed yet, he is actually not a Dolphin. He will not be until he signs.

Again this is a silly argument, but I know how you like to play semantic generalistic games based on opinion, supposition and speculation. Play by the sword, get your butt kicked by the sword.

 

[dlockz]

Actually a case can be made for this argument. I wouldn't personally refer to him that way, but McCown has not played for the Dolphins, so until he actually suits up for a game, one could make the argument that he is not yet a Dolphin QB.

Henne is actually an easier case to make. Since he has not come to terms and signed yet, he is actually not a Dolphin. He will not be until he signs.

Again this is a silly argument, but I know how you like to play semantic generalistic games based on opinion, supposition and speculation. Play by the sword, get your butt kicked by the sword.

I personally dont use semantics to make my case, I have stated over and over my case and its not based on anything other than history and my opinion but u can see it like u like.

 

[dlockz]

You DO realize that BYU's system in Beck's Sr year ran almost 50% of the time, right? It's not nearly as pass-happy as everyone would like to think. Nothing like Texas Tech.

In posts past, I showed where BYU and TTech ranked, as a fair comparrison. In 06, TTech was literally 112th in rushing. BYU was nowhere near that (53rd). More middle of the pack.

BYU rushed 437 times in 06
They passed 452 times.

That's 49% Rushing, 51% passing

BYU is much more balanced than you give them credit for. It's not just a "system" that makes a QB look good.

Besides, my statement still stands regarding talent. If MWC is supposed to have less talent, how much BETTER would Beck have to be to get the stats he had? Imagine him on a Big10 team, or SEC? What would he have accomplished on such a squad, given a starting role?

The whole "system" QB just doesn't fly, when you look at the stats.

He would have been facing better talent. PLus outside of conference he was a paltry one to one td to int ratio so it showed that he was not the same qb outside of conf as he was in conference. Its highly doubtful that playing in the big 10 he would complete nearly 70 percent of his passes.
His stats are quite a product of the system, look at Max hall once again who put up great numbers as a sophmore. You can run a spread offense and run the ball alot it involves using receivers a blockers and BYU has fairly good sized receivers and recruits the best linemen in the conference, it is still an offense with the pass setting up the run. People that think a spread offense does not involve the run at all are only looking at limited spread offenses. The part of BYU's offense I was referring to was the way they use a fairly short pass offense and in Beck's case mainly using the TE and Rb's as receivers, Hall actually used his receivers more than Beck. Thier system using high percentage pass completions does inflate Qb stats somewhat and if you dont agree thats fine but yearafter year look at the stats put up by spread offenses. Max Hall is far from an elite qb and he already has put up numbers in his sophmore year equivilant to Beck's junior year. Another reason BYU runs much more than Texas tech they are usually in a situation where there line is superior to thier opponent unlike Texas Tech who is usually the lesser line in thier conference. In close games BYU reverts to passing the ball at a much higher percentage , feel free to do the math I already have. In blowouts BYU ran the ballmuch more which somewhat skews the percentage, they are more like a 55 pass to 45 run team overall. In a tight game it was almost never 50/50.

The system qb thing flies quite well until proven otherwise if he had put up the same numbers out of conference as he did in conference. Amazing how his interceptions went up the better class of teams he played.