At least be consistent please

[caneproud117]

As I've already stated, this was a weak FA pool in terms of the QB position, Feeley is the best one that was in there. IMO that is why he had to make a deal before Cleveland, because what if no one falls to us in the draft, then we had Fidler for another year and the fans in Miami would go nuts.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by Graythreat
For those that think we're "set at the QB position" and "need Offensive linemen", chew on this...


LT 74 Wade Smith- started 16 games
LG 78 Jeno James - Started 28 games
C 68 Seth McKinney - started 5 games
RG 69 Taylor Whitley- started 0 games
RT 70 John St. Clair - 16 games started

Average games started by position for starters: 13

QB AJ Feeley- started 5 games

Now, consider we have a proven flop at backup QB who MAY start, how can you sit there and say we're worse off at OL than QB? Keep in mind, we are still actively pursuing an dlooking to adda vet OL.

So ther'es your choice...we're bad off at both positions. So it's your choice...try to fixt he most imporatnt position ont he field, or try to fix OL. But try to be consistent in your arguments, We're no worse off at QB than OL.

Ah, if it were only that simple.

 

[PhinPhan1227]

Football 101: A bad O-line means that you have no passing game AND no running game. A mediocre O-line means that you are limited, but at least you can get SOMETHING done. Last season we had a BAD O-line. Jay Fiedler isn't a BAD QB, he's just a mediocre QB. Now, a GOOD O-line, would probably make him a pretty decent QB, since he would have time. A BAD O-line...well, you get the 26th ranked passing ioffense, and Ricky get the crap beat out of him. Fix the O-line an EVERYONE gets better. Don't fix the O-line, and it doesn' MATTER who you have at QB. Marino, behind a crap O-line looks like Ryan LEaf.

Originally posted by Graythreat
For those that think we're "set at the QB position" and "need Offensive linemen", chew on this...


LT 74 Wade Smith- started 16 games
LG 78 Jeno James - Started 28 games
C 68 Seth McKinney - started 5 games
RG 69 Taylor Whitley- started 0 games
RT 70 John St. Clair - 16 games started

Average games started by position for starters: 13

QB AJ Feeley- started 5 games

Now, consider we have a proven flop at backup QB who MAY start, how can you sit there and say we're worse off at OL than QB? Keep in mind, we are still actively pursuing an dlooking to adda vet OL.

So ther'es your choice...we're bad off at both positions. So it's your choice...try to fixt he most imporatnt position ont he field, or try to fix OL. But try to be consistent in your arguments, We're no worse off at QB than OL.

 

[PhinPhan1227]

Re: Re: At least be consistent please

Originally posted by Da 'Fins


I also don't think that anyone has said anywhere that we are "set" at OL! The point that has been made is that this OL, right now, is improved over last year's.
The sky has not yet begun to fall ...
:D

Lol...I still fail to see the rational for the statement that the O-line is already better. If we're going for irony, than you could say that it got better the moment they cut everyone but Wade since that at least forced them to do SOMETHING. But as far as actual on field product, I don't think that you can say that the O-line in March 2004 is any better than it was in December 2003. We lost our one good player, and picked up one good player...WASH. McKinney and Ruddy are also probably a WASH, a little gain in athleticism, a little loss in experience. For the rest? We dumped a player who wasn't getting it done, and replaced him with players who couldn't beat him out of his spot. WASH at BEST!! And St Clair is a 2nd string player as the Rams showed. As for Wade Smith, I'm optimistic that come September he'll be a better player than he was in December. But since only 2 months have gone by since then, how much better can he be? You don't add THAT much body mass in two months. Not when the first month or even two was pobably spent recovering from the beating he got during the season.

 

[3P]

Guys,

As I have stated before, everyone is making the argument that we don't need a QB based off of personal guesses. Everyone keeps saying that we gave up a 2nd round pick... and that is too much for a backup QB. What I implore people to understand is that we gave up a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick. Not guarenteed... and I'm willing to bet that the condition is dependant on how much Feeley starts. Also, as one poster pointed out... if Feeley fails and we draft QB next year, we will have spent #1 and #2 overall on QB's. I just don't see Spielman taking the chance of having 2/3 of our first day picks going towards the same position next year. Spielman said they made the deal because they didn't want to loose out on Feeley. Furthermore, Feeleys contract was a 2 year deal with an OPTIONAL 3 year extention built in. That is the FO's option, not his. His deal begs to be reworked after 2 years. Given all this, and Spielman's track record this offseason of having Plan A, Plan B, Plan C... etc... I don't think that he was willing to go into the draft hoping that Rivers dropped to him. What Spielman has done here people, is to give himself OPTIONS. Yes, some of those options include sitting pat at what we have at QB, but many more of them have us drafting/aquiring another QB. I think it is a incredibly foolish thing to discount us drafting a QB... it's not like we gave Feeley a 6 year deal, with a 20 mil signing bonus. We gave him a top-rated backup, or middle of the road starter type deal. Who's to say that Spielman doesn't rate him as one of the top backups in the league? Keep your minds open, I think we have a VERY astute GM with enough foresight to not paint himself into a corner.

Options:

Draft Rivers, have a 3 way competition between Sage/Rivers/Feeley... cut Fiedler on 6/1. Not too likely in my book... no veteran backup... only Sage has experience in our system.

Draft Rivers, start Jay and let Rivers/Feeley learn & compete for a starting job later in the season or next year (thus more than likely dropping Feeley's draft pick from a 2nd to likely a 3rd due to play time conditions in the trade) This seems entirely likely to me... they keep Feeley who they like with out actually giving up the 2nd next year, get Rivers (whom they've already shown they like) and don't have to worry about starting anyone before they're ready (that goes for Rivers AND Feeley... remember the guy has NO experience in our offense and was in a WCO type setting prior to comming here)

Have a 2 way competition between Feeley/Fiedler & draft a QB in lower rounds. Very likely if Rivers doesn't fall to us.

Start Fielder this year, have Feeley as backup & to learn the offense (dropping the trade pick to 3rd or 4th) Evaluate Feeley at the end of the year, and possibly draft a QB next year (early or late depending on review of feeley) Offer Jay the vet min. next year to back up Feeley or whomever else they deem worthy of our starting QB.

Anyone who says "We're set at X postion, we're not going to draft high." is ignorant to the fact that Spielman has set himself up to have the freedom of CHOICE come draft day. It would surprise me not one bit if Spielman drafted ANY position but K/P or TE. That is the beauty of this draft folks... and why it should be pretty damn exciting.

Btw... if you made it this far down, THANKS for reading my essay

 

[PhinstiGator]

Originally posted by Graythreat
Our team has been built around the defense since Marino retired, and a little before then.

And your point is...

We need to look to the FUTURE. In 2-3 years our Defensive play will drop CONSIDERABLY. THomas is already slowing down, JT will slow down in a year our two, our secondary is near ancient, T-bo is old, and Seau..well, you get the picture.

All that means is that it is important to draft quality defensive players this year. I expect us to look seriously at DT, LB, & DB.

Our Offense is where we need to build this team around. We now have James, McKinney, and Smith, 3 proven young linemen. At QB, we currently have a wild card young buck that we have absolutely no idea about.

Why? The philosophy of this team is not offensive driven. DEFENSE wins championships. None of the top 8 passing teams arrived on the superbowl field last season.

We also have 2 top tier WR"s, a great TE, and a great RB all young. Where are we going to turn to in 2 years when our defense is falling apart around us? We're going to have to look to our offense to carry this team, and rightfuly so. It's stacked with young talent.

The design of the team is to win with defense. That design will not change untill the coaching staff is changed. Obviously, the GM must not allow our defense "to fall apart".

Point being, in 2 years this team will be built around the offense, no if's and's or butt's about it. In 2 years our draft picks will shift from offense to defence. And we're going ot need a solid QB to guide that offense. You can say what you want, but QB is still the most imporant position on a team. Some teams get by without it, but with our current talented offense, we havent' done jack without a QB. That's a fact, the QB is needed to run this team.

This team (as we know it) will never be built around the offense. The fact that Dan Marino never won a Superbowl reaffirms that the QB can't get us there. It's defense, the running game and an efficient passing game. That is how we did it with the only perfect season.

We're working on a limited time frame....not to make the superbowl, but to get a QB capable of leading this offense for the next 10 years. If we wait for 2 years to draft a Qb to groom, we'll have to wait another 2 years for him to be ready. The time is now, the time WAS about 6 years ago before dan retired, but the team was in your "win now" mode.

Feeley has had 3 years of sitting behind a probowl QB. Give the guy a chance for goodness sakes!

"win now" is bogus. We were in "win now" mode with marino, then after, and currently. We went from great offense to great defense, and now we're shifting back. Only this time we have our franchise RB yet no franchise QB. I'm not saying we need another dan, but we need a consistent QB. "win now" will be the motto 4 years from now. Not something we need now, or then. We need to seriously look 4 years down the road. It will be all O then, and with that, we need a young QB.

You might believe we are shifting back to an offensive heavy design...but we are not. The offense needs to catch up. But, we will go nowhere if the defense gets worse. Again, we have a run first design THIS year. Ricky Williams must carry the load. Marino was a once in a lifetime event. Of course, we need better play from our QB. He needs to stay healthy, produce fewer turnovers, and be efficient in 3rd down situations.

Let Marino go. Defense win championships.

 

[Phinzone]

Re: Re: At least be consistent please

Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Football 101: A bad O-line means that you have no passing game AND no running game. A mediocre O-line means that you are limited, but at least you can get SOMETHING done. Last season we had a BAD O-line. Jay Fiedler isn't a BAD QB, he's just a mediocre QB. Now, a GOOD O-line, would probably make him a pretty decent QB, since he would have time. A BAD O-line...well, you get the 26th ranked passing ioffense, and Ricky get the crap beat out of him. Fix the O-line an EVERYONE gets better. Don't fix the O-line, and it doesn' MATTER who you have at QB. Marino, behind a crap O-line looks like Ryan LEaf.

Drop the generalizing rational of how football works and look at OUR team and who we had playing. IF and by you post that seems to be a big if you watched Jay, you would see very obvioulsy that the problem was HIM. Given the proper time to make the reads, and complete the passes, he conssitently failed. His balls were high, low, in front, and behind our receivers. BG hit more receivers in stride during his single start in San Diego that I've seen Jay hit in an entire season.

not only did he make lack luster throws, he made BAD judgements. 2 seasons ago he lead CC across the middle, and lobbed a high ball to him that shouldn't have been thrown. In the process he got the kid a concussion and cost him valuable playing time. THIS season he did his best to re-enact that same play and got CC rattled across the middle again, followed immediately by a lob that got Ricky cracked after he had taken a nasty fall off a late hit out of bounds. Ricky had to stop, wait for the ball, got cremed and had to hobble off of the field.

He HAS had a good OL in his 4 years here. Obviously this previous season the OL was under par, but they DID play a few consistent games and he failed at them. The year before he flopped with a great OL that made ricky the #1 RB in the NFL.

An OL can give the QB time, that is all. The rest hinges on the play of the QB. He has to be able to make the throws, Fiedler obviously can not. Hes' good enough at reads, but that's means bupkus without the ability to throw the ball to the receiver.

 

[fin-atic]

Greythreat:
Don't confuse these guys with stats. They think every backup is Delhome or Brady and they think every backup lineman we have was just sitting on the bench even though they are capable of outplaying the starters and becoming a dominant line.

You hit the nail on the head. We are still terribly void of talent where we need it most. QB and Line.

 

[philyphin]

We should go O-line then with our first pick, you don't get franchise QB with the 20th pick, taking the 4th best QB in the draft, so we should take O-line. There is a reason we don't have a franchise QB, it is plan and simple, winning teams can't replace there franchise QB's cause they don't lose enough games to have a pick in the top half of the draft, to get your mannings, vicks, culpeppers and McNabbs, we never had our losing season(s) after Marino left to get another Franchise QB.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by philyphin
We should go O-line then with our first pick, you don't get franchise QB with the 20th pick, taking the 4th best QB in the draft, so we should take O-line. There is a reason we don't have a franchise QB, it is plan and simple, winning teams can't replace there franchise QB's cause they don't lose enough games to have a pick in the top half of the draft, to get your mannings, vicks, culpeppers and McNabbs, we never had our losing season(s) after Marino left to get another Franchise QB.

Winning teams CHOOSE not to take a franchise QB. If your content with mediocracy, you make "safe" low picks, and tread water year to year and hope for the best. If you want to give your team some firepower, you snag the franchise players.

And this is the first year in a LONG time that we've had the option of jumping at a top tier QB. Rivers MAY (not likely, but a QB slide is rumored) fall to the #20 pick. In most other drafts, he's the Clear #2 man. In this draft he's the disputed #3/#2 man. I say he's the #3 man, but not by much. He has consistent play against great teams, which is something Ben lacks. We have the ammo to trade up, the question is, do we want to struggle year after year with mediocre QB play? Or do we want a top tier QB to go with our WR combo, our great TE, and great RB?

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by fin-atic
Greythreat:
Don't confuse these guys with stats. They think every backup is Delhome or Brady and they think every backup lineman we have was just sitting on the bench even though they are capable of outplaying the starters and becoming a dominant line.

You hit the nail on the head. We are still terribly void of talent where we need it most. QB and Line.

thanks man, I'm just on mission work.....educating the needy :)

love the avatar btw, where can I get a copy of that issue?

 

[PhinPhan1227]

Originally posted by fin-atic
Greythreat:
Don't confuse these guys with stats. They think every backup is Delhome or Brady and they think every backup lineman we have was just sitting on the bench even though they are capable of outplaying the starters and becoming a dominant line.

You hit the nail on the head. We are still terribly void of talent where we need it most. QB and Line.

Um...which players now on our O-line beat out the starters an were dominant? For that matter, which players no on our O-line beat out the starters....ANYWHERE? Other than Jeno, we've got ZERO proven starters on our O-line. Not ONE of them was able to win a head to head competition with players who were SO good, they got cut. MAYBE theses players prove to be effective. But right now, they've got LESS bragging rights than even lowly AJ Feeley. Football STARTS, and ENDS at the O-line. Make it better and everyones better...make it worse and nothing else matters. Show me a single team that made it deep into the Playoffs with even a mediocre O-line. I know you can't show one from last season because that's the one thing that EVERY team had in common. And those O-lines were better than decent, they were flat out GOOD. We're 1/5th of the way to being flat out GOOD.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by PhinPhan1227


Um...which players now on our O-line beat out the starters an were dominant? For that matter, which players no on our O-line beat out the starters....ANYWHERE? Other than Jeno, we've got ZERO proven starters on our O-line. Not ONE of them was able to win a head to head competition with players who were SO good, they got cut. MAYBE theses players prove to be effective. But right now, they've got LESS bragging rights than even lowly AJ Feeley. Football STARTS, and ENDS at the O-line. Make it better and everyones better...make it worse and nothing else matters. Show me a single team that made it deep into the Playoffs with even a mediocre O-line. I know you can't show one from last season because that's the one thing that EVERY team had in common. And those O-lines were better than decent, they were flat out GOOD. We're 1/5th of the way to being flat out GOOD.

and what QB's on our roster beat out other QB's to be starters....................................and you KNOW you shouldn't count Jay in there...............

And how dare you tear into our unproven OL! We changed it didn't we? I mean, they don't have much experience, and didn't start other places, but we changed the OL and it has POTENTIAL now right?

........don't look now, your contradicting yourself.....

And FYI, 4 out of those 5 were actually STARTERS on their teams in the past, whether they held onto that job or not. Which is more than AJ managed to do outside of 3rd stringer due to injuries.

 

[fairbanksb]

Originally posted by Graythreat


thanks man, I'm just on mission work.....educating the needy :)

love the avatar btw, where can I get a copy of that issue?

Oh Teacher, Teacher, impart more of you knowledge on we the needy souls.:stooges:

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by fairbanksb



Oh Teacher, Teacher, impart more of you knowledge on we the needy souls.:stooges:

I do take my time and effort and educate you people for free, and I get mocked?

:D