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Bill Cowher and Jon Gruden: Pros and Cons

Excellent post.

I think with a strong GM behind Gruden, he can be extremely successful...
 
TedSlimmJr said:
One of the main issues I have with Gruden is his lack of patience with young quarterbacks. He wants to come in with his complex offensive schemes and 15-word plays that only confuse younger players. More complicated =/= more productive. He likes Peyton Manning because it takes a QB with that level of experience and football IQ to understand what Gruden is talking about half the time.

Furthermore, he's the type of coach who's own ego is subject to get in the way of team chemistry. His message and his quirks will wear thin on a football team, it's only a matter of time. I don't think he has staying power. Gruden is a flashy name that just seems to like being a flashy name more than anything else.


Cowher and/or Jeff Fisher are both more even keeled, and have more staying power no matter what situation they get into. Their message and quirks aren't going to wear thin on a football team nearly as fast as Gruden.

The spread concepts that the NFL has integrated from college haven't made offenses more complicated, they've made them simpler and less complicated. Which is why college QB's who would've been busting out in the NFL 15 years ago are now able to experience various degrees of success in the NFL.

However, over the long haul defenses are going to force each and every one of these quarterbacks out from under that umbrella of simple spread concepts, and into what the NFL is all about... identifying matchups and exploiting them. The QB's that can't adjust and do this will be cast by the wayside and replaced. The cream will always rise to the top in time, and the sh*t will roll downhill.

As long as Gruden understands that, he'll make a good quarterback out of a good quarterback prospect. But they're going to eventually have to learn Gruden's WCO and philosophy, the spread concepts he implements into it will only keep a young QB hid for so long.... and Gruden's patience will be tested.
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I'd agree with you about Gruden, but I think if we get a top 5 pick than that means we're drafting Luck/Jones/Barkley and he's not going to do his usual yo-yoing around with those guys. If for some reason we went on a tear and got out of the top 10 than I wouldn't want him. Next thing you'd know we'd have 5 or 6 mediocre QB's on our roster.
 
Anyone who says having a coach who wants a run first offense is not ideal is kidding themselves.

All it takes is for you to watch ONE Stanford game to know that Luck likes to run the ball to set up his big plays.

No matter who the coach is, if Luck is the QB, we will be a run first team.
 
Kistner10 said:
I'd agree with you about Gruden, but I think if we get a top 5 pick than that means we're drafting Luck/Jones/Barkley and he's not going to do his usual yo-yoing around with those guys. If for some reason we went on a tear and got out of the top 10 than I wouldn't want him. Next thing you'd know we'd have 5 or 6 mediocre QB's on our roster.
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Gruden will bench a struggling Luck/Jones/Barkley and turn to a veteran who's spent the last 10 years as a backup in a WCO in a heartbeat. He'll have one or two within arm's reach at all times no matter who Miami drafts. I guarantee you that.


The other point I didn't necessarily touch in this thread but have made clear in the past is that no matter who Ross hires to be his head coach, he can't give any of them full control. That's the biggest screw up Ross can make.
 
DzakkH13 said:
Anyone who says having a coach who wants a run first offense is not ideal is kidding themselves.

All it takes is for you to watch ONE Stanford game to know that Luck likes to run the ball to set up his big plays.

No matter who the coach is, if Luck is the QB, we will be a run first team.
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Correct. Andrew Luck calling his own plays is getting all the hype, but for the wrong reasons. Nobody has even touched on why he's doing it or what the impact is on the offense.

What he's doing is getting his offense into the best play possible based off his pre-snap reads and identifying the over-hanging defender. He's paying attention to when they have the defense out-flanked to one side, and/or using motion to change the strength of the formation on running plays.

Luck is coordinating the ground attack from under center.
 
I think you have to ask yourself if Jon Gruden, spread more thinly as a head coach, can have as good an effect on an Andrew Luck as Bill Cowher combined with a very good quarterbacks coach.

Jon Gruden's over-involvement with quarterbacks in his role as head coach may actually be his undoing.
 
DzakkH13 said:
Anyone who says having a coach who wants a run first offense is not ideal is kidding themselves.

All it takes is for you to watch ONE Stanford game to know that Luck likes to run the ball to set up his big plays.

No matter who the coach is, if Luck is the QB, we will be a run first team.
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I don't think Andrew Luck is going to dictate to Jon Gruden what kind of offense is going to be run.
 
That "no coach has ever won a Super Bowl with two different teams" con is one of the stupidest things I've read on the internet.

Guess what, until Kurt Warner did it, no quarterback has thrown 100 touchdowns on two separate teams in the history of the NFL. Nothing is stopping a proven winner from winning. Cowher and Gruden can win again.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
One of the main issues I have with Gruden is his lack of patience with young quarterbacks. He wants to come in with his complex offensive schemes and 15-word plays that only confuse younger players. More complicated =/= more productive. He likes Peyton Manning because it takes a QB with that level of experience and football IQ to understand what Gruden is talking about half the time.

Furthermore, he's the type of coach who's own ego is subject to get in the way of team chemistry. His message and his quirks will wear thin on a football team, it's only a matter of time. I don't think he has staying power. Gruden is a flashy name that just seems to like being a flashy name more than anything else.


Cowher and/or Jeff Fisher are both more even keeled, and have more staying power no matter what situation they get into. Their message and quirks aren't going to wear thin on a football team nearly as fast as Gruden.

The spread concepts that the NFL has integrated from college haven't made offenses more complicated, they've made them simpler and less complicated. Which is why college QB's who would've been busting out in the NFL 15 years ago are now able to experience various degrees of success in the NFL.

However, over the long haul defenses are going to force each and every one of these quarterbacks out from under that umbrella of simple spread concepts, and into what the NFL is all about... identifying matchups and exploiting them. The QB's that can't adjust and do this will be cast by the wayside and replaced. The cream will always rise to the top in time, and the sh*t will roll downhill.

As long as Gruden understands that, he'll make a good quarterback out of a good quarterback prospect. But they're going to eventually have to learn Gruden's WCO and philosophy, the spread concepts he implements into it will only keep a young QB hid for so long.... and Gruden's patience will be tested.
Click to expand...

Like which quirks do you mean? I find it very easy to believe the guy has them but I'm just not familiar with what they are.
 
DzakkH13 said:
Anyone who says having a coach who wants a run first offense is not ideal is kidding themselves.

All it takes is for you to watch ONE Stanford game to know that Luck likes to run the ball to set up his big plays.

No matter who the coach is, if Luck is the QB, we will be a run first team.
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I think that's important thing to note about the way Stanford is playing. That's a running team, no doubt. Luck is the Heisman candidate but they've been thundering the soft part of their schedule with the running game. How many attempts did Luck have against Washington? 15?

But Luck shows so much of an aptitude for the pure passing game that I don't think you can just say he's going to be a play action pass, needs the support of the running game QB. Luck is smart enough and selfless enough not to need the glory by throwing the ball all over the yard. But in those times in the game where he has to throw, he's shown more than enough aptitude to thrive in an offensive framework like the one the Packers have built around Rodgers.
 
Mr. Magoo said:
I think that's important thing to note about the way Stanford is playing. That's a running team, no doubt. Luck is the Heisman candidate but they've been thundering the soft part of their schedule with the running game. How many attempts did Luck have against Washington? 15?

But Luck shows so much of an aptitude for the pure passing game that I don't think you can just say he's going to be a play action pass, needs the support of the running game QB. Luck is smart enough and selfless enough not to need the glory by throwing the ball all over the yard. But in those times in the game where he has to throw, he's shown more than enough aptitude to thrive in an offensive framework like the one the Packers have built around Rodgers.
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I also think Luck has the ability to be a great pure passer and create plays on his own, I do.

What I am trying to say is that Luck will give what the defense gives him. More often than not he understands the importance of the running game and will choose to employ it as often as he can.
 
shouright said:
I don't think Andrew Luck is going to dictate to Jon Gruden what kind of offense is going to be run.
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Haven't we gone long enough with coaches trying to 'fit' players into what they want rather than trying to create a system that fits our players?

If we get Luck, it doesn't matter who the coach is. I want them to let him play his style and let him do what makes him so effective, taking advantage of mismatches.

Luck's biggest strength is between his ears. He should be allowed to run the offense to his strengths rather than having a coach trying to change that.
 
Out of the two I'd prefer Cowher. I'm pretty confident we'd end up with a better overall coaching staff if he was HC rather than Gruden

Question is whether appointing the ex-star coach is really the way to go - are they likely to be as good as they once were ? Is the fire still there ? How much do they really want it / need it ?

For me, ideally we'd be looking for the next Cowher / Gruden - a more risky but potentially better option
 
I kind of want Gruden.

He's QB friendly, smart, and has a ton of new ideas he wants to use in spread offense and all that. I want the Dolphins to be a high scoring team with Andrew Luck at QB.
 
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