Can't wait for Spielman to get fired already..........

[Dbergan]

I don't think many teams can match the success that the Pats have had........but I'd settle for just a chunk of it. 1 Title. 1 Superbowl in over 30 yrs...............is that too much to ask for!!?

I hear ya brother......give me just one, just one ring...just one....

 

[firewannstedt]

For someone who is advocating Rick's departure your credibility is not standing on a solid foundation of knowledge. Rick Mirer played 3 games for Chicago in 1997 after playing 4 years in Seattle. After his 3 game season in Chicago he went to the NY Jets.

Just remember Rick wanted Hasselbeck and Brees. Both times shotdown by none other than Dave Wannstedt.

And yes, I believe Rick being tied to Wanny has tarnished his image (for those looking for an excuse). But for those that can see between the lines, his image is fine. The guy does his homework extensively as proven in last years draft. Just give the guy a break and let's see what happens.

Why are you dissing St. Nicks football knowledge when the dudes right... Yes, Rick Mirer played 3 horrendously bad games for Chicago but that only came after Wanny and his side kick Rick traded Chicago's 11th pick in the 1997 draft for the bum. Let me say this again.... Wanny and Rick traded the 11th pick in the 1997 draft for a guy who played just 3 games for the Bears.

AND on top of that, the two seasons that Rick was the Director of Pro Personnel for the Bears they went back to back 4-12. Oh I know, Rick's the teflon boy. Heeee did a greatttttt job.

 

[Dbergan]

Let me say this again.... Wanny and Rick traded the 11th pick in the 1997 draft for a guy who played just 3 games for the Bears.

Serious? No kidding, what ACTUALLY happened during the 1997 draft...facts only. Did Rick and Wanny effectively give the 11th pick in the draft for a guy who played 3 games? Why? What the hell happened?

 

[firewannstedt]

Perhaps I dragged this out past it's optimal shelf life, but it irks me when someone is so intent on making Spielman a scapegoat of the Wanny error that he would put together some stats and say that Spielman had a 40% success rate with the draft. Only to find out that it is in actuallity above 50% and 92% of the players who didn't stick (read all but 1) were drafted in the 5th, 6th, and 7th round. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that Spielman did NOT have final say.

This quote from Saban only confirms my belief (however relevent they may be now that Saban has GM powers) that he is happy with Spielman. Why would Saban go out of his way to praise Spielman while thinking that he was "better than nothing"? Saban has shown nothing but honesty while he's been here. He has pointed out areas that need upgrading (as opposed to Wanny's I think <insert horrible player here> played well). Heck, he called out his QBs at LSU right out in the public for everyone to hear.

I also understand that being right or wrong about Spielman at this point is irrelevant. Either way we go regarding his staying or leaving, Nick Saban is running the show. That's what counts.

I'm arguing purely on principal.

That, and I'm enjoying this debate immensely. :D

50 percent??? 40 percent? no...more like 29 percent. But you know what... You're right... Saban may teach Spielman how to do it right and the guy might turn out to have some value. My reasoning for jumping into this debate is because some here are saying that the dudes been all that the last 8 years with the Bears and the Phins when the record clearly shows that he has not been uhhh all that. I keep reading here for every great move that Spielman wanted to make, Wanny overturned Rick decision... Bull.... I see no evidence of that except for rumor and innuendo.

AND what about the decisions that weren't overturned? A number 2 for a 3rd string QB? Vernon Carey at the 1st pick.

Looks...this has been a good debate.... and you're right that it is a bit irrelevant because Nick's got the bull by the horns and he clearly calls the shots. So thanks guys for the back and fourth and Go Phins!

Bob

 

[firewannstedt]

Serious? No kidding, what ACTUALLY happened during the 1997 draft...facts only. Did Rick and Wanny effectively give the 11th pick in the draft for a guy who played 3 games? Why? What the hell happened?

Here's a link:
http://www.bearshistory.com/seasons/1997.html

 

[Dbergan]

Here's a link:
http://www.bearshistory.com/seasons/1997.html

Wow.....nuff said! :shakeno:

 

[Shawn-l]

I keep reading here for every great move that Spielman wanted to make, Wanny overturned Rick decision... Bull.... I see no evidence of that except for rumor and innuendo.

I suppose you haven't seen articles pertaining to Brees and Boldin? You want to account for your info linking to articles yet you don't want to believe other articles? That's bias.

AND what about the decisions that weren't overturned? A number 2 for a 3rd string QB? Vernon Carey at the 1st pick.

Granted, I believe a #2 was a desperate move but what else was he supposed to do?! All of the FA QB's basically sucked and are pretty much at the end of their careers. Philadelphia was not going to let Feeley go for anything less than a 2nd rounder as evidenced in many articles also where the Jets were trying to get him for a 3rd rounder the year before that but was shot down.

And as I stated before......

"Fine!

Provide proof to back it up and we'll believe you. Your words don't carry much weight at this point given that there were articles discussing the Boldin and Brees snafu's. Also, when Wanny was overriding his assistants on the sidelines.

Granted, Rick provided draft information, big deal! When you've got draft info and recommendations that you do not follow and you absolutely suck at personnel talent evaluation you're more than likely going to screw it up! Rick rated picks in specific rounds, Wanny disregarded the rounds in which Rick recommended they be taken. Here's a little scenario we can play out. Here's your draft report:

Team needs by priority: LT, RB, DT, LB, Safety

1st round #2 pick:

Recommend trading down to accumulate picks for 2nd and 3rd rounds

Otherwise Best prospects listed according to possible availibility:

LT Alex Barron
RB Ronnie Brown
DT Antajj Hawthorne
LB Derrick Johnson
Safety Thomas Davis

Paul Tagliabue walks to the podium and announces "And at the #2 pick Dave Wannstedt and the Miami Dolphins select Thomas Davis!".

That's what we're talking about. He seemingly would choose the worst option when given a choice. Is THAT Rick's fault? I don't honestly see how you could pin that on Rick.

If you're to blame Rick for personnel then basically, you're saying that Dave Wannstedt when given a choice made the best possible decision when given that choice.

Seeing as you made a website to fire Wanny, I honestly believe that you do not agree that Dave Wannstedt makes good decisions let alone the "best" decisions. And that being the case, you cannot blame Rick Speilman when Wanny was in charge of personnel."

 

[3P]

50 percent??? 40 percent? no...more like 29 percent. But you know what... You're right... Saban may teach Spielman how to do it right and the guy might turn out to have some value. My reasoning for jumping into this debate is because some here are saying that the dudes been all that the last 8 years with the Bears and the Phins when the record clearly shows that he has not been uhhh all that. I keep reading here for every great move that Spielman wanted to make, Wanny overturned Rick decision... Bull.... I see no evidence of that except for rumor and innuendo.

AND what about the decisions that weren't overturned? A number 2 for a 3rd string QB? Vernon Carey at the 1st pick.

Looks...this has been a good debate.... and you're right that it is a bit irrelevant because Nick's got the bull by the horns and he clearly calls the shots. So thanks guys for the back and fourth and Go Phins!

Bob

Where do you get 29%? 15 players out of 28 drafted currently on the roster is 53%.

I challenge you to find me a post in this thread saying that Spielman is "all of that". In fact, I challenge you to find someone who said a good job was done with the roster decisions in Chicago. You won't find them. What people HAVE been saying is that you cannot blame Spielman for Wanny's poor choices as GM.

As for the "decisions that weren't overturned", those are irrelevant even if it IS way too early to decide if they were successful trades or not. Spielman no longer has any input on trades, short of a "Good job on that one, Mr. Saban".

Wanny overturning Rick rumor and innuendo? Rick even having any say in Wanny's decisions are rumor an innuendo. Guilt by association, with zero hard facts to support your argument.

And so now Spielman is being blamed for Rick Mirer? :roflmao:

I see Spielman mentioned not once in your little article you supplied. Wanny has shown a tendancy to pick bad QBs... and to do it of his own free will. See Fiedler 2000-2004. When Rick became GM his first move was to replace Wanny's QB. Yet for some reason, it's Rick's fault that Wanny had a penchant for bad QBs.... amazing.

In closing, I would like to ask a question once again that you skillfully avoided:

If Spielman (the #2 guy to Wanny) gets credit for Wanny's choices at GM, does he get the same credit for the choices that Saban makes?

 

[Shawn-l]

Why are you dissing St. Nicks football knowledge when the dudes right... Yes, Rick Mirer played 3 horrendously bad games for Chicago but that only came after Wanny and his side kick Rick traded Chicago's 11th pick in the 1997 draft for the bum. Let me say this again.... Wanny and Rick traded the 11th pick in the 1997 draft for a guy who played just 3 games for the Bears.

That's my bad, I was just finishing my first cup of coffee. The way I took it was that he thought Chicago "drafted" Rick Mirer. My immediate thought was "Seattle drafted Rick Mirer, not Chicago!". I know Rick played 3 games for Chicago, I was the first one to point that out.

AND on top of that, the two seasons that Rick was the Director of Pro Personnel for the Bears they went back to back 4-12. Oh I know, Rick's the teflon boy. Heeee did a greatttttt job.

Again, you want to place blame on Rick for poor results. With Wanny as Head Coach and in charge of player personnel, do you honestly believe Wanny would make even Scott Pioli look good? Give me your frank and honest opinion on that.

If you believe that, then you believe Wanny is a good coach and should be involved in player personnel decisions. Which I would find "VERY" hard to believe!

 

[firewannstedt]

I gotta ask... What part of "Player Personel" do you not understand? You're constantly downplaying Spielmans impact with quotes like this: "Granted, Rick provided draft information, big deal!" Are you serious. The guy was they eyes and ears for Wanny since 1997 regarding anything personel. He's the guy with the charts, he's the guy who attended the Senior Bowls, he's the guy that Wanny most depended on in every draft. And by the way... do you even know how Wanny coached during those years? The guy was a coach by committee... Wanny wasn't a decison maker and when he made decisions he was the one who whould cave in to the pressure from the players and coaches.

You're trying to win this debate by pretending that Rick Spielman had very little impact here and in Chicago and I'm telling you that you are flat out wrong.

As far as those articles about Brees and Bouldin and all that stuff where Wanny disregarded the rounds in which Rick recommended they be taken ...no I haven't seen any of that and if you're the one bringing that to the table then you are the one who has to provide the links. Did Rick actually come out and say that he was overruled by Wanny? Did Wanny say he overruled Rick? OR...is this innuendo in some Phin forum? So...I'm asking you to prove that what you have been saying throughout this thread is true. Provide the damn links!

What else were they supposed to do with the QB situation? How about starting Sage? Using our number 2 for a guy who played in 6 NFL games and was 3rd string behind a Detmer? Come on! I'm telling you right now... Feeley aint got it...mark my words....

Look..you're obviously stuck in some sort of lovefest for Rick Spielman and no matter what I bring to the table ain't gonna get you to change your mind about the guy.

 

[3P]

I gotta ask... What part of "Player Personel" do you not understand? You're constantly downplaying Spielmans impact with quotes like this: "Granted, Rick provided draft information, big deal!" Are you serious. The guy was they eyes and ears for Wanny since 1997 regarding anything personel. He's the guy with the charts, he's the guy who attended the Senior Bowls, he's the guy that Wanny most depended on in every draft. And by the way... do you even know how Wanny coached during those years? The guy was a coach by committee... Wanny wasn't a decison maker and when he made decisions he was the one who whould cave in to the pressure from the players and coaches.

You're trying to win this debate by pretending that Rick Spielman had very little impact here and in Chicago and I'm telling you that you are flat out wrong.

As far as those articles about Brees and Bouldin and all that stuff where Wanny disregarded the rounds in which Rick recommended they be taken ...no I haven't seen any of that and if you're the one bringing that to the table then you are the one who has to provide the links. Did Rick actually come out and say that he was overruled by Wanny? Did Wanny say he overruled Rick? OR...is this innuendo in some Phin forum? So...I'm asking you to prove that what you have been saying throughout this thread is true. Provide the damn links!

What else were they supposed to do with the QB situation? How about starting Sage? Using our number 2 for a guy who played in 6 NFL games and was 3rd string behind a Detmer? Come on! I'm telling you right now... Feeley aint got it...mark my words....

Look..you're obviously stuck in some sort of lovefest for Rick Spielman and no matter what I bring to the table ain't gonna get you to change your mind about the guy.

Again, if Spielman gets credit for being that involved in Wanny's decisions, will you give him the same for Saban's?

If Saban has a good draft, will you stop your "hatefest" for Spielman?

 

[Shawn-l]

I gotta ask... What part of "Player Personel" do you not understand? You're constantly downplaying Spielmans impact with quotes like this: "Granted, Rick provided draft information, big deal!" Are you serious. The guy was they eyes and ears for Wanny since 1997 regarding anything personel. He's the guy with the charts, he's the guy who attended the Senior Bowls, he's the guy that Wanny most depended on in every draft.

Depended on then overruled?! LOL:roflmao:

And by the way... do you even know how Wanny coached during those years? The guy was a coach by committee... Wanny wasn't a decison maker and when he made decisions he was the one who whould cave in to the pressure from the players and coaches.

So, you're saying Wanny might actually be a good coach?!

You're trying to win this debate by pretending that Rick Spielman had very little impact here and in Chicago and I'm telling you that you are flat out wrong.

Prove it. I showed you an example of a draft report whereby a choice was given. That is how draft's go. There are choices given and decisions to be made. Dave was in charge of making those decisions and proved he cannot be a personnel decision maker.

As far as those articles about Brees and Bouldin and all that stuff where Wanny disregarded the rounds in which Rick recommended they be taken ...no I haven't seen any of that and if you're the one bringing that to the table then you are the one who has to provide the links.

For someone who would make a website to fire his teams headcoach, you certainly don't keep in the loop about subjects that should concern you. I honestly can't believe you have not even heard about those articles. The sun sentinel articles have to be paid for if they're older than 2 weeks. But here is a clip I found on a post concerning the topic at hand:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...n13,0,7244966.column?coll=sfla-dolphins-front

'Huizenga rightfully holds cards no one else does. He no doubt debriefed Spielman and Wannstedt on who made the Ricky Williams trade (Spielman), who made the final call to draft failed cornerback Jamar Fletcher (Wannstedt) and who picked linebacker Eddie Moore this past draft (Wannstedt) instead of receiver Anquan Boldin (which Spielman wanted to do).'

Also, here's the Herald report:

"Concerns about a lack of change in philosophy are silenced by the fact Spielman has disagreed with some of Wannstedt's past picks. And he told Huizenga as much.A Dolphins source familiar with the GM interview process confirms that Spielman showed Huizenga documentation that his grade for Florida State receiver Anquan Boldin was higher than for Moore. And Spielman's grade on Fletcher was the lowest among those grading the since-traded cornerback."


Here's another article:

"But the bigger questions with Wannstedt, the ones that open the door today for him to go, have been in picking players and ranking roster priorities. It started with Jay Fiedler in the first offseason and - even with great additions like Ricky Williams and Chris Chambers - haunted him through the final draft when a draft-day debate with personnel chief Rick Spielman ended with the pick of linebacker Eddie Moore over receiver Anquan Boldin."

I suppose the balls in your court now?:cooldude: The thing that blows me away?

"And Spielman's grade on Fletcher was the lowest among those grading the since-traded cornerback"

Now how did Wannstedt interpret Rick's information as Fletcher being a good pick when Spielman had him rated the lowest? Think about that. Dave looked at the report, probably saw Fletchers #'s and said "Ohh, we need this guy!". Rick comes back and says "No, he's not the guy we're looking for, I'm telling you I would like to grab Brees.". Dave says, "No, we need defense, that's how championships are won, on defense. I want Fletcher. End of argument.". But you keep on believing what you want to believe even in the face of facts.

What else were they supposed to do with the QB situation? How about starting Sage? Using our number 2 for a guy who played in 6 NFL games and was 3rd string behind a Detmer? Come on! I'm telling you right now... Feeley aint got it...mark my words....

Who are you? You know Ron Wolf endorsed Feeley? Do you know who Ron Wolf is? Do you realize that Saban has reviewed Feeley extensively this past season and is willing to go with him as the starter next year?! Even expert draft reports were high on Feeley. They have a whole hell of a lot more credibility than you ever will. Mark my words.

Look..you're obviously stuck in some sort of lovefest for Rick Spielman and no matter what I bring to the table ain't gonna get you to change your mind about the guy.

Cause your argument is weak.

 

[Agua]

Forget it. This guy is convinced Spielman is infected with "Wanny germs". That's all that matters to some folks. Saban certainly went out of his way to complement the personnel department though. Read into it whatever you wish.

 

[3P]

:0wned:

 

[3P]

*crickets chirping*