Cleo should have started after Daunte was yanked.

[rvicious]

I really do not see how Saban could make the decision to use Joey over Cleo. That is blind loyalty IMO. Cleo has out played Joey in every setting.

Saban's best choice was to coach Cleo up as much as possible and let Joey back him up. Cleo opens up the playbook more and is harder to defend. He sees the entire field and makes smart decisions. The guy just keeps getting better and better.

Saban just made another really bad decision.

How many times has Cleo started a game or played in one , besides the garbage time at Buffalo. Look, I am not defending JH, but it is stupid to say that Cleo should have started over Joey, what if Cleo would have bombed, then what? I mean the coaches see these two guys everyday and I am going out on a limb here but I would say they know more about football than you do. So when those guys make a choice I assume thay believe JH will play better that Cleo. It's always nice to say that they should have put this guy instead of the other, after the fact.

 

[Superself]

Lemon made an ill-advised throw into triple coverage and hit Welker on the numbers. The problem was in read of the zone that would develop after Cleo released the ball.

Unfortunately that happens to even the most experienced receivers. I remember a heated argument between Marino and Duper when Marino made the same mistake that left Duper out to dry.

It happens...The only cure for that is experience...

I agree with you...but those are great throws IMO.
That throw is ill-advised because of the inherent risk of throwing into that type of coverage.

 

[Superself]

How many times has Cleo started a game or played in one , besides the garbage time at Buffalo. Look, I am not defending JH, but it is stupid to say that Cleo should have started over Joey, what if Cleo would have bombed, then what? I mean the coaches see these two guys everyday and I am going out on a limb here but I would say they know more about football than you do. So when those guys make a choice I assume thay believe JH will play better that Cleo. It's always nice to say that they should have put this guy instead of the other, after the fact.

Is it also stupid to say that Tony Romo should have started over Bledsoe for Dallas's entire season?

You see, sometimes coaches do make mistakes. I'm sure Bill Parcells saw Romo in practice and how well he did, but he still started with Bledsoe. Until Drew just straight floundered did he decide to make a change...his genius move would have been to start him from game 1.

 

[Roman529]

Cleo had no experience so why the heck would Saban have started him over Joey?......yes, in hindsight, we could look back and say Cleo might have been better, but there is no way of knowing. I do hope Cleo plays at least half the game next week so we can see what he is capable of. I think Cleo deserves a shot at competing for the starter's position next year, but I still hope we draft a QB.

 

[Kyndig]

We can only really go on what we see and thus far it looks like Cleo Lemon has some really good athleticism and a good arm. The offense looks quite different with him, whereas harrington seems to be quite dink and dunk. What is our third down conversion rate because of this? How many times do we see that we need 6 or 8 or even 10 yards on third down and Joey throws it to a guy three yards out who gets stopped before he can make it to the first down marker instead of throwing to a receiver at the first down marker? In thruth that has been driving me crazy.

I don't think our line is all that bad at this point in the season in terms of Harrington havving to throw the 2 yard pass instead of waiting for some more time to allow the longer routes to develop, so Harrington just isn't right for this system, and possibly any other. In short, after 4 or 5 years, he is what he is and liikely won't get any better.

I'd be curious to see at this point what Cleo could do if he had more snaps with the first team offense. I mean, a third string QB pretty much just runs the scout team in practices, so studying the offense and knowing the playbook is one thing, but getting reps is quite another.

 

[Superself]

Cleo had no experience so why the heck would Saban have started him over Joey?......yes, in hindsight, we could look back and say Cleo might have been better, but there is no way of knowing. I do hope Cleo plays at least half the game next week so we can see what he is capable of. I think Cleo deserves a shot at competing for the starter's position next year, but I still hope we draft a QB.

Some of you guys seem to be stuck on this for some reason.

Screw experience...when you have a QB that is just teetering on the brink of downright awful, what does experience matter when the guy behind him has outplayed him and gotten better in every scenario he has faced?

Again, Tony Romo had no experience either....should Dallas have used your "stick in the mud" argument and stuck with Bledsoe??

 

[ckparrothead]

We had to run a high school offense for Cleo because of his lack of grasp of our playbook. That may work if you come in off the bench and noone's prepared for you and your skill set but within two weeks of starting he would get killed in that simple offense when defensive coordinators would be able to gameplan for him. Saban made the right choice. Cleo needs to spend the offseason studying game film and the playbook if he wants to be a legitimate backup

I find it funny that you keep saying things like this without having any evidence to back it up whatsoever.

We ran more bootlegs and rollouts with Lemon in the game because we had a quarterback that has feet to execute them, and they were working.

But I guess that suddenly means we were running a mickey mouse zone read offense where Lemon had to make one read and then run the ball wishbone style on the other 13 pass plays of the night :rolleyes2

 

[adamprez2003]

I find it funny that you keep saying things like this without having any evidence to back it up whatsoever.

We ran more bootlegs and rollouts with Lemon in the game because we had a quarterback that has feet to execute them, and they were working.

But I guess that suddenly means we were running a mickey mouse zone read offense where Lemon had to make one read and then run the ball wishbone style on the other 13 pass plays of the night :rolleyes2

You're exaggerating what I'm saying and Ive stated on posts that it was working so why stop? I agree on that but I think you'll also agree if he played a three game stretch where that was our offensive game plan, by week three we would be completely shut down. Its too easy to defensively scheme against what we played but bottom line is it worked. Due to the fact he still has less than a full game under his belt I would be interested in seeing how he plays against Indy since their outside speed will probably make the rollout ineffective. Its too early for me to make any declarative statements one way or the other just as it is for any other poster but we're all in the same boat where we're trying to extrapolate his potential on the limited amount of playing time we've seen

 

[adamprez2003]

What's your point? Is Joey, as our 'starter,' studying this same 'high school' playbook, and as a 5-year veteran, able to execute said plays?? Are you suggesting Cleo DOESN'T study game film and the playbook NOW as a Miami Dolphins QB????

If Cleo isn't a legitimate backup, he wouldn't be on our roster. A backup is a backup, whether you're 2nd-string Joey Harrington or 4th-string Shane Matthews.

My point is simply that we need a more complicated offense than the one we ran Monday. It worked so there's no gripe with going with it for that one game but we would get killed if we ran that for an entire season.

 

[adamprez2003]

What?!? Cleo has been in this system for almost two whole seasons now. How can you say he hasn't grasped the offense? The truth of the matter is that Mularkey likes to move the pocket and run pass plays with the QB on the move. Lemon is clearly more effective at doing that than Harrington. It's asinine to think the offense was "dumbed" down for a guy that's been here for this long.

I think its asinine to think it wasnt but I could be wrong. There's a reason he's never risen above 3rd string after 4 years with his athletic ability. I assume that its his grasp of the playbook after the offense we ran but as I have said I could be wrong. We'll see against Indy. I dont think rollouts will work against them as they did against the Jets in the rain. They have too much outside speed. If he can run something more complex we'll know Sunday. I agree with you that he's more effective rolling out than Harrington

 

[moe]

I really do not see how Saban could make the decision to use Joey over Cleo. That is blind loyalty IMO. Cleo has out played Joey in every setting.

Saban's best choice was to coach Cleo up as much as possible and let Joey back him up. Cleo opens up the playbook more and is harder to defend. He sees the entire field and makes smart decisions. The guy just keeps getting better and better.

Saban just made another really bad decision.

I think a lot of the success that Cleo had in this game(I didn't see last game) had to do with the fact that Mularkey simplified the play calling after his first two sets. Honestly, when they first put him in, He looked like a fish out of water. Joey has the skill to play this game, but I just think it moves too fast for him. He can't think that fast. I bet if we had simplified the play calling for him he would have played better too.

 

[phillyphinphan]

At the time when daunte was out, saban wanted to put the more experienced QB in. Joey was brought in as a solid backup who had several years of experience as a QB, that's why saban chose him over cleo.

It looks like a bad decision now but early in the season many people wanted to see if Joey could probably do well in another offense.

Agreed....

 

[Superself]

I think a lot of the success that Cleo had in this game(I didn't see last game) had to do with the fact that Mularkey simplified the play calling after his first two sets. Honestly, when they first put him in, He looked like a fish out of water. Joey has the skill to play this game, but I just think it moves too fast for him. He can't think that fast. I bet if we had simplified the play calling for him he would have played better too.

You call bootlegs and rollout simplified?
This was not a one read offense MM all of a sudden started calling. I would say that Joey's playbook is much smaller than Lemon's due to the fact that Lemon has NO problem making the throws to the open man.

Lemon looked like a fish out of water??:rolleyes2
Yeah and that fish sure did look convincing during his time not breathing...

 

[Superself]

My point is simply that we need a more complicated offense than the one we ran Monday. It worked so there's no gripe with going with it for that one game but we would get killed if we ran that for an entire season.

Totally disagree. It does not matter at all.
The offense we need is the one that is successfully executed. I don't care how dumbafied or complicated it is!

You don't run one kind of offense for an entire season...you have to be flexible to allow for taking advantage of another team's deficiencies.

Bottom line is that Cleo allows Mularkey to do MORE to be successful on a consistent basis. Harrington has not done that in Detroit and he has not done it here either....is that some sort of surprise to anyone?? :shakeno:

 

[kcbrown]

What?!? Cleo has been in this system for almost two whole seasons now. How can you say he hasn't grasped the offense? The truth of the matter is that Mularkey likes to move the pocket and run pass plays with the QB on the move. Lemon is clearly more effective at doing that than Harrington. It's asinine to think the offense was "dumbed" down for a guy that's been here for this long.

Thank you for pointing this out!