cutler to lions doesnt make sense

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

Not saying he can't. Just saying there's no reason to believe he can.

there's no reason to believe any QB can win at the next level using that logic. winning in college is a lot different than winning in the NFL. elway never played in a bowl game at stanford, playing all 4 years. i'll take him over a "winner" like david greene. winning in the NFL is important, as a most teams are pretty evenly talented. the difference in talent between the best team in the league and the worst team isn't that big of a chasm. in college, it's a much bigger difference. for an academic school like vanderbilt to even be in consideration for a bowl game as far as 9 games into the season really shows you how well he and his teammates played, despite how clearly outmanned they were in every conference game.

 

[Motion]

I didn't say he couldn't. But he hasn't proven that he CAN. That was the thing, for example, about Rivers. Rivers proved that he had that quality of finding a way to win one way or another. Cutler hasn't.

Not saying he can't. Just saying there's no reason to believe he can.

And I think it DOES make a difference when you're looking at someone like Cutler, who is used to losing and a guy like Vince Young, who was 34-2. Not ALL the difference, but you have to take it into account. Young found ways to win games he should have lost.

You are really good at making horrible comparisons. Both Rivers and Young had very good defenses and good offensive support. To compare their situations with Cutler's is just plain foolish.

 

[ryoung8918]

If Harrington is the starting QB next year without drafting a replacement the Fans are going to not show up. My step dad has had season tickets for 20 years and him and all of his season ticket buddies are all going to give up there tickets if Harrington is brought back and might either way unless Millen is fired. Boy do they all hate Joey up there.

Bingo. We're talking about fans who showed up dressed in orange when the Bengals came to town at the end of the season. You want to see some fans who really dislike their QB - that's Detroit. Millen tries to roll out Joey next season, and the fans will revolt.

 

[Boik14]

in alot of mock drafts i see the lions taking cutler, why? im hearing that they plan on giving harrington another try. im also pretty sure millen fired mariuci becaused he started garcia over harrington. plus, millen knows he on really thin ice and this year will determine his future with the lions. so why would he take a qb that would need 2-3 years to develope. i think he drafts a player who can jump in and contribute right away such as michael huff,tamba hali,winston justice etc. so i dont think cutler will go to the lions, but weirder things have happened in the past. any thoughts

you hear Cutler to Detroit rumors cause Harrington blows chunks.

 

[finfansince72]

you hear Cutler to Detroit rumors cause Harrington blows chunks.

Seems weird that Harrington blows chunks but Carr is still seen as the savior in Houston. They have both been about equally bad. Millen is the major problem in Detroit, I think Harrington could be a decent player, just not in Detroit, he is done there.

 

[Boik14]

Seems weird that Harrington blows chunks but Carr is still seen as the savior in Houston. They have both been about equally bad. Millen is the major problem in Detroit, I think Harrington could be a decent player, just not in Detroit, he is done there.

I never said a word about Carr in this thread but since you choose to drag him into it:

1 season where his OL gave up < 50 sacks: 8 wins and Carr touted as the next great thing

3 Seasons where the OL gave up over 60: like 8 wins combined.

Their OL simply doesnt allow Carr time to throw and its only because Dominick Davis is pretty darn good that hes able to get 1000 yards

 

[finfansince72]

I never said a word about Carr in this thread but since you choose to drag him into it:

1 season where his OL gave up < 50 sacks: 8 wins and Carr touted as the next great thing

3 Seasons where the OL gave up over 60: like 8 wins combined.

Their OL simply doesnt allow Carr time to throw and its only because Dominick Davis is pretty darn good that hes able to get 1000 yards

Yea and Harrington's line is awesome, hes the one to blame whenever he gets sacked, while its always Carr's lines fault right? Ive heard the nonsense before, if Harrington is already a bust then Carr is also. Neither of them has been good, neither of their teams have been good, Houston's fanbase is more forgiving and the ownership/managment is supportive of Carr while Detroit has pinned all the blame on a young Qb. Ive watched Carr play a bunch of times, he holds the ball way too long and makes dumb decisions, its not all his lines fault.
I dont think Harrington is a great Qb but he isnt any worse than Carr and a ton of you would love to trade the farm for Carr who hasnt done a thing in the NFL.

 

[nopony]

You are really good at making horrible comparisons. Both Rivers and Young had very good defenses and good offensive support. To compare their situations with Cutler's is just plain foolish.

Wow. Thanks. And they also have different letters in their names and different mothers... so clearly even talking about them is invalid!

Give me a break.

Either address my actual point or talk to someone else.

 

[nopony]

there's no reason to believe any QB can win at the next level using that logic. winning in college is a lot different than winning in the NFL. elway never played in a bowl game at stanford, playing all 4 years. i'll take him over a "winner" like david greene. winning in the NFL is important, as a most teams are pretty evenly talented. the difference in talent between the best team in the league and the worst team isn't that big of a chasm. in college, it's a much bigger difference. for an academic school like vanderbilt to even be in consideration for a bowl game as far as 9 games into the season really shows you how well he and his teammates played, despite how clearly outmanned they were in every conference game.

All of it matters SOMEWHAT. You can't dismiss things entirely becasue they don't point the way you want them to.

I never said and am not saying that it is all-important. I am saying it is something to take into consideration. And it is.

Or you could just ignore everything and just draft by the combine. And field the all-crappy team for the next ten year.

 

[Boik14]

Yea and Harrington's line is awesome, hes the one to blame whenever he gets sacked, while its always Carr's lines fault right? Ive heard the nonsense before, if Harrington is already a bust then Carr is also. Neither of them has been good, neither of their teams have been good, Houston's fanbase is more forgiving and the ownership/managment is supportive of Carr while Detroit has pinned all the blame on a young Qb. Ive watched Carr play a bunch of times, he holds the ball way too long and makes dumb decisions, its not all his lines fault.
I dont think Harrington is a great Qb but he isnt any worse than Carr and a ton of you would love to trade the farm for Carr who hasnt done a thing in the NFL.

Ok but theres a few big differences.

Carr showed what he can do when hes sacked "only" 47x in a season. Won 8 games. What has Harrington done to show he can be at all successful in this league other than the very rare decent game? Nothing. hes never put together even 1 decent half season.

Also look at the skill position players around them. Rogers, Williams and Williams were all 1sts and K Jones a 2nd. Detroits OL has given up < 40 for the 2 years prior to this. Conversely, Carr has 1 1st rd wr who's decent, a 2nd rd who is decent but injured almost as much as Rogers, and a 4th rd RB who's proven to be a steal. Their OL has shown they bite. I think Carr given the opportunity to excel could at least have hope. I wouldnt deal a 1st for him at this point but id be ok dealing RW and a 4th or something even though Id hate to see RW go. (Thats just a for example, not an actual rumor Im trying to spin)

Im not saying by any stretch that Carr is great, but at least hes shown reason to have some optomism. Harrington hasnt.

 

[SMadison29]

It does make sense if the Lions draft Cutler because Harrington has not proved that he's an NFL QB. A perfect comparison to the Lions situation is that of the Chargers a couple years ago. They had Drew Brees who hadn't proven to be a good NFL starter & they draft Philip Rivers. Brees stepped up & now the Chargers can trade Rivers for another first rounder. A team needs two QBs capable of starting.

 

[nopony]

Big Ben also played on a MUCH better team than Cutler. Keep that in mind. :wink:

Oh, I do.

But that cannot continue to be an excuse for every area in which Cutler is deficient.

You take it into account... but you can't simply say "Cutler had a bad team" as if that makes up for EVERYTHING. Otherwise there is simply no room for argument. Cutler must be a god. He'll be better than Marino! But Marino... So What! Cutler's team was worse!...

I absolutely agree that you take it into account, but you cannot use it as a catch-all to prove that Cutler was as good as Big Ben... he wasn't.

 

[cowtowndick]

Either address my actual point or talk to someone else.

the point you fail to address adequately, either this time or the last time you cited it when arguing against cutler, was the 'context' of the teams involved. cutler playing for vanderbilt and going 5 and 6 - you point to that as a flaw or a reason to discredit his potential, as if the vanderbilt football program is anywhere near texas or usc. the point is moot, but how successful do you think young or leinhart would be playing for vanderbilt? in his last three games (loss in double overtime i believe to florida, loss to kentucky, win over tennesse), here's his numbers: 94 of 147 (64%), 12 td's, 2 int's. maybe he had those numbers because the defenses he faced were otherwise distracted by the venerable vanderbilt rushing attack, or all those other all-americans on the field for the commodores. you cite the effect of winning v. losing - how will young and leinhart handle getting their a**es kicked playing for a crappy team? young seems to have a lot of character and mental toughness, but leinhart? the guy goes back for a fifth year, takes basketweaving, parties at playboy mansion - we'll see what kind of toughness he has when he's playing for the saints. do you think cutler would be distracted to the point of ineffectiveness by winning all the time?

whomever saban/mueller decide to draft, i'm cool with. but the qb position has to be addressed through the draft, and if cutler is there at #16 and we don't take him, whomever gets picked later in the draft had better be a 'tom brady' type of find. i think it's very obvious that a lot of fans are very tired of the retread qb approach that's been here since dan left. we've had years of great defenses, a year or two with great numbers from ricky williams. now, we've got great potential at rb, a solid defensive system being put in, one of the most talented coaching staffs ever assembled - it would be a shame to blow it all by plugging in or staying with mediocre talent at qb.

 

[nopony]

the point you fail to address adequately, either this time or the last time you cited it when arguing against cutler, was the 'context' of the teams involved. cutler playing for vanderbilt and going 5 and 6 - you point to that as a flaw or a reason to discredit his potential, as if the vanderbilt football program is anywhere near texas or usc. the point is moot, but how successful do you think young or leinhart would be playing for vanderbilt? in his last three games (loss in double overtime i believe to florida, loss to kentucky, win over tennesse), here's his numbers: 94 of 147 (64%), 12 td's, 2 int's. maybe he had those numbers because the defenses he faced were otherwise distracted by the venerable vanderbilt rushing attack, or all those other all-americans on the field for the commodores. you cite the effect of winning v. losing - how will young and leinhart handle getting their a**es kicked playing for a crappy team? young seems to have a lot of character and mental toughness, but leinhart? the guy goes back for a fifth year, takes basketweaving, parties at playboy mansion - we'll see what kind of toughness he has when he's playing for the saints. do you think cutler would be distracted to the point of ineffectiveness by winning all the time?

I actually have addressed that. A LOT.

My point was NEVER that Cutler sucks because he was 5-6. My point was and is that we do not know if Cutler will be the kind of quarterback that finds ways to win... He might very be... or he might not. We don't know.

We DO know that Young and Leinart are guys that find ways to win. I know their teams are better... but those two quarterbacks did extraordinary things to pull out ball games. And Rivers was another good example. We KNOW, we've seen it repeatedly him winning games he should have lost.

It's not a knock on Cutler, it's a question mark.

Why do people act like I'm calling Dan Marino a punk when I bring up perfectly valid concerns about Cutler?

I promise you that Mueller and Saban and every other GM are asking the same questions I am.

whomever saban/mueller decide to draft, i'm cool with. but the qb position has to be addressed through the draft, and if cutler is there at #16 and we don't take him, whomever gets picked later in the draft had better be a 'tom brady' type of find. i think it's very obvious that a lot of fans are very tired of the retread qb approach that's been here since dan left. we've had years of great defenses, a year or two with great numbers from ricky williams. now, we've got great potential at rb, a solid defensive system being put in, one of the most talented coaching staffs ever assembled - it would be a shame to blow it all by plugging in or staying with mediocre talent at qb.

THe quarterback absolutely has to be addressed. Yes. Through the draft? That's probably the best long term way, yes. But not the only way. I think we have to do BOTH this year... and barring a huge trade up for Young or leinart, i think Saban does too.

 

[cowtowndick]

We DO know that Young and Leinart are guys that find ways to win. I know their teams are better... but those two quarterbacks did extraordinary things to pull out ball games. And Rivers was another good example. We KNOW, we've seen it repeatedly him winning games he should have lost.

It's not a knock on Cutler, it's a question mark.

Agreed that it is a question mark for Cutler. Not to flog a dead horse, but it's a little easier to pull out ball games if you're the qb of Texas or USC. Reggie Bush, Lendale White, Steve Smith, Dwayne Jarrett, Jamaal Charles, Selvin Young, Ramonce Taylor, not too mention their respective offensive lines and the abilities of each team's defenses to keep it close.

And re the upgrading of qb through non-draft means - is there really a FA qb available that is that much of an upgrade over Frerotte? If there is (and Kitna or McCown aren't the answers), then sign him. If there is someone available through a trade - a trade that won't otherwise cripple the team, either through giving up too much in the way of talent or draft choices or killing the salary cap - then make the deal. And no, Culpepper isn't the answer. Not to say we should be overwhelmed or ecstatic or even comfortable with our qb play last year, but I don't see much in the way of options out there.