Did Miami Under or Over Perform Last Season? | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Did Miami Under or Over Perform Last Season?

According to you Rex Ryan is one of the best coaches in the league and buttfumble a top ten QB, so where are the rings? Anything but a SB appearance at the very least would be under performing with a top coach and a top QB.

If you wish to talk about the Jets, why not start a Jets thread? This one is not about them. Surprised?

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

stick to the topic at hand please.

Yeah, as you did. :)
 
I think the answer could be both. at the beginning of the season, if you said they'd be 8-8, that would be under performing. at the end of the season, I say they over performed. If you would have told me the fins would have had the most sacks in the nfl with 58 (no matter who's at fault), poor running game, a vanilla offense, a scandal with the offensive lineman...I would say 8-8 is over performed.
 
The very concepts are so vague and inherently arguable it's probably not even worth it to argue.

I take a different stance on the "disaster" that occurred with Jonathan Martin and Richie Incognito.

First off the "disaster" got Martin out of the starting lineup which the coaches were for some reason unwilling to do on their own. Bryant McKinnie played MUCH better at left tackle than Martin had been playing there and even Tyson Clabo played a lot better in the second half of the year than Martin played when he slid back to right tackle against the Patriots. So you've got a zero-sum game going from a roster talent position by wiping out Martin and Incognito in one blow. I don't think you can make the case that the "disaster" negatively impacted the talent that was put on the field.

Secondly the "disaster" did not damage the psyches of the players on the team. It did the exact opposite. The team was completely lifeless, they start being accused of being bullies by the media (even internationally and outside of sports), and all of a sudden they're jumping up and beating the likes of the Bengals (who were red hot) on national television? They go out and beat San Diego, Pittsburgh and New England? All of that was angst and the way they were being portrayed in the media was a big part of that.

But then the playoff hunt starts to take over the mood, and all of that angst wears off because they're in "win-and-in" territory, able to control their playoff destiny for two games. That was the time for the team's intrinsic character to show. Well, it did. Just not how the fans wanted it to.
 
The very concepts are so vague and inherently arguable it's probably not even worth it to argue.

I take a different stance on the "disaster" that occurred with Jonathan Martin and Richie Incognito.

First off the "disaster" got Martin out of the starting lineup which the coaches were for some reason unwilling to do on their own. Bryant McKinnie played MUCH better at left tackle than Martin had been playing there and even Tyson Clabo played a lot better in the second half of the year than Martin played when he slid back to right tackle against the Patriots. So you've got a zero-sum game going from a roster talent position by wiping out Martin and Incognito in one blow. I don't think you can make the case that the "disaster" negatively impacted the talent that was put on the field.

Secondly the "disaster" did not damage the psyches of the players on the team. It did the exact opposite. The team was completely lifeless, they start being accused of being bullies by the media (even internationally and outside of sports), and all of a sudden they're jumping up and beating the likes of the Bengals (who were red hot) on national television? They go out and beat San Diego, Pittsburgh and New England? All of that was angst and the way they were being portrayed in the media was a big part of that.

But then the playoff hunt starts to take over the mood, and all of that angst wears off because they're in "win-and-in" territory, able to control their playoff destiny for two games. That was the time for the team's intrinsic character to show. Well, it did. Just not how the fans wanted it to.

That was my take on it as well. It's like the Dolphins hit a star in Mario Kart and then it eventually it ran out and they turned back into regular ol' Bowser.

I forget where I read it but my understanding is that based on yards for versus yards against we overachieved by about 1.5 to 2 games last year. It's an overly broad way to look at wins and losses but it jives with what I saw on the field, anyway.
 
If you wish to talk about the Jets, why not start a Jets thread? This one is not about them. Surprised?

The Jets fan proves my point perfectly, they won their last game so they feel like they over performed for the season. I'm sure the average Bengal fan feels like they under performed. The season is more than just one game. Most people had the Dolphins and the Jets finishing at around 0.500 before the season, they had many good reasons for this prediction at the time and you can't just toss that all out the window because of what happened one specific week. The reasons for the 8-8 predictions actually came to pass for the most part, the Keller loss was huge, the o-line was a disaster, Tannehill still wasn't ready, no chemistry with Wallace and the other the new weapons, etc, etc. Just because you know what the problems are doesn't mean you can magically overcome them because it happens to be a very important game.

And we did under perform, trade for Albert and draft Eifert and re-sign Reggie Bush and Tony Fasano and I'm sure we win at least 10 games. If the Jets don't trade away Revis and they don't ruin buttfumble by hiring Tony Sparano maybe they win more games too, so they under performed also in their own way.
 
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That was my take on it as well. It's like the Dolphins hit a star in Mario Kart and then it eventually it ran out and they turned back into regular ol' Bowser.

I forget where I read it but my understanding is that based on yards for versus yards against we overachieved by about 1.5 to 2 games last year. It's an overly broad way to look at wins and losses but it jives with what I saw on the field, anyway.

That makes sense. I know that ONYPPA (offensive net yards per pass attempt) minus DNYPPA (same on defense) is generaly considered a good predictor, as is turnover differential. The Dolphins had only a 4.86 ONYPPA and a 5.59 DNYPPA, which is a -0.73 differential. They were -2 in turnover differential so that wasn't helping either.

Basically if not for the Martin scandal that early Cantor line at 6.5 may have proved quite prescient.
 
Basically if not for the Martin scandal that early Cantor line at 6.5 may have proved quite prescient.

So Jonathan Martin was the spark needed to motivate the team now? The Philbin hatred has now entered into the realm of the absurd...

I tend to not believe to this whole "the team was flat" critique because as far as I can tell its just another way to say we lost at this point. To me the team really did look uncharacteristically horrible at Tampa Bay at the height of the scandal and then they rebounded. Did they rebound to normal? Did they rebound to some level higher than the norm? Who the **** knows, I'm certainly not going to trust your eyes on the matter though, nor should you trust mine. So show me some tangible evidence of this gelling effect that Jonathan Martin had over the team.
 
First off the "disaster" got Martin out of the starting lineup which the coaches were for some reason unwilling to do on their own. .

I'm sure the coaches would love to have taken Ryan Tannehill out of the lineup if they had a spare Aaron Rodgers laying around to replace him with, but they didn't. So as terrible as Jonathan Martin was apparently the coaches felt he still gave us a better chance to win than Garner or Dallas Thomas or whoever the backup LT was at the time.
 
As Daytona Fin pointed out, the 6.5 was an outlier and available at only one spot -- Cantor Gaming -- and only in the early going. My two friends and I played it after some hesitation and missing the early juice. We found out later that another group planned to play it later in the day. We apparently beat them by only a few hours. It was worth a dime apiece. This year Cantor not only dropped their limit on that prop but they aren't agreeing to raise the limit for regular customers. Normally you can manage that type of advantage if you are a known regular customer and will give them business throughout the year.

Las Vegas sportsbooks make mistakes. Sometimes blatant mistakes. I've tried to emphasize that over the years but for some reason the preferred reputation of all-seeing and all-knowing prevails on message boards and elsewhere. People want to believe that if Las Vegas hangs a number, then that's the perfect number and all kinds of sophistication went into the process. Meanwhile, it's often one guy assigned to a particular category and he's at home munching on pizza while deciding what numbers to use. His biases go into the process. The Cantor guy conceded last year that the Dolphins were closer to 7.5 based on mathematical application of the projected pointspreads but he decided to use 6.5. That's called shading the number.

Unfortunately the mistakes aren't as prevalent as they used to be. That's why I'm no longer in town full time. Neither are many of my friends from that era. We got spoiled by knowledge that certain sportsbooks would always screw up the same categories, like forgetting that college basketball over/unders are not balanced by half. The second half is higher scoring by more than 10%. Some books would butcher that at the start of every season. Nowadays with all the corporate mergers, and emphasis on a conservative approach from upper management, the gaffes are rarely available and you have to actually pick winners. Where's the fun in that? I liked it better when it was off the cuff, like the Dunes sportsbook manager throwing hockey totals on the board within minutes of me asking him what happened to them, on the first day of the playoffs. Then I had to restrain laughter when he threw them up 1.5 or 2 goals higher on every game than Gary Austin's was dealing them down the Strip. They were the only two joints booking hockey totals in that era, mid '80s.

Anyway, as Walrus and ckparrothead pointed out, the Dolphin stats last year equated to a lower number of wins than we achieved. There are many versions of that. The ones I looked at, and some I compiled myself, generally pointed to 7.2 to 7.5 wins when blended.

It's hardly true that the sportsbooks would have plummeted the number to 5 or thereabouts if the Martin saga were already underway, or somehow could have been forecast. As always, happy adjusters have poor instincts and take it too far. The power rating was in the 7.5 range so that's where it would have stayed. Public money forced the closing number to 8 wins, and most spots with juice on the over.

I would say Tannehill underachieved, regardless of the offensive line or other variables. His base number should be considerably above 6.66 yards per attempt. Some of that was self inflicted and can be reasonably expected to improve in 2014. We didn't run the ball often enough, nor utilize play action or snaps from under center nearly as much as we should have, given a quarterback on Tannehill's level. I spotlighted those variables prior to last season. They make sense for young moderate quarterbacks, not merely Tannehill's specific skill set.

We also underachieved in the Jets game to end the season. The Bills game a week earlier made sense but there were several factors pointing to an uptick performance against the Jets. Actually there were indications both ways. None of them were as negative as our effort that day.

BTW, it's interesting that so many posters remember that 6.5, and it was actually rounded down to 6 in the OP. Very much representative of human nature. Nobody preferred to emphasize the fact that the number closed 8, and it was 8 long before the start of the season. My dad the psychology and sociology professor used to talk about that all the time, the need for people to feel slighted and then joyous that they overcame the dismissal. It shows up in politics all the time. A winning candidate and his handlers invariably love to spotlight an early outlier poll. We were down by 8 points, they'll exclaim, often from the podium itself during the winner's speech, and on the political talk shows. Disregard that the cherry picked poll was not representative of the state of the race at any point in time.
 
The very concepts are so vague and inherently arguable it's probably not even worth it to argue.

I take a different stance on the "disaster" that occurred with Jonathan Martin and Richie Incognito.

First off the "disaster" got Martin out of the starting lineup which the coaches were for some reason unwilling to do on their own. Bryant McKinnie played MUCH better at left tackle than Martin had been playing there and even Tyson Clabo played a lot better in the second half of the year than Martin played when he slid back to right tackle against the Patriots. So you've got a zero-sum game going from a roster talent position by wiping out Martin and Incognito in one blow. I don't think you can make the case that the "disaster" negatively impacted the talent that was put on the field.

Secondly the "disaster" did not damage the psyches of the players on the team. It did the exact opposite. The team was completely lifeless, they start being accused of being bullies by the media (even internationally and outside of sports), and all of a sudden they're jumping up and beating the likes of the Bengals (who were red hot) on national television? They go out and beat San Diego, Pittsburgh and New England? All of that was angst and the way they were being portrayed in the media was a big part of that.

But then the playoff hunt starts to take over the mood, and all of that angst wears off because they're in "win-and-in" territory, able to control their playoff destiny for two games. That was the time for the team's intrinsic character to show. Well, it did. Just not how the fans wanted it to.

Can't disagree more....it's pretty much accepted that for an O-line to play at high level (a playoff level if you will).....it needs time playing together to gel...time to become a cohesive unit.

58 sacks ranks in the top ten in NFL history.....to expect a 2nd year quarterback playing in only his 3 plus year at QB at a high level to overcome this kind of instability is unreasonable.

Of course....we could have been in a worse situation and quarterbacked by a young man named Branden Weeden as some supported.
 
Under, should have been a playoff team.

Playoff team with an O-line that allowed 58 sacks?...top ten in the entire history of the NFL?

You advocate an O-line that protects this poorly should be an obvious playoff team?

I'd say a more rational perception would be that this is a team a team that over achieved?....take a look at how the other top ten teams in NFL history (In Sacks Allowed) fared?
 
Playoff team with an O-line that allowed 58 sacks?...top ten in the entire history of the NFL?

You advocate an O-line that protects this poorly should be an obvious playoff team?

I'd say a more rational perception would be that this is a team a team that over achieved?....take a look at how the other top ten teams in NFL history (In Sacks Allowed) fared?

I would argue that the expectation was that the LB group would be better, the O-Line would be better, Tannehill to Wallace would be better and the Coaching would be better. So rationally thinking... this team underperformed since it could be argued those areas were disasters, or at least certainly not areas of noteworthy achievement.

I think that's a very fair statement.
 
hard question.. they beat Pats Steelers Colts Chargers Bengals heartbreaks to Ravens Bucs Bills all with the Igcognito BS and a subpar OLINE... I pray we have a top 15 Oline and then we might be able to do something special...
 
As Daytona Fin pointed out, the 6.5 was an outlier and available at only one spot -- Cantor Gaming -- and only in the early going. My two friends and I played it after some hesitation and missing the early juice. We found out later that another group planned to play it later in the day. We apparently beat them by only a few hours. It was worth a dime apiece. This year Cantor not only dropped their limit on that prop but they aren't agreeing to raise the limit for regular customers. Normally you can manage that type of advantage if you are a known regular customer and will give them business throughout the year.

Las Vegas sportsbooks make mistakes. Sometimes blatant mistakes. I've tried to emphasize that over the years but for some reason the preferred reputation of all-seeing and all-knowing prevails on message boards and elsewhere. People want to believe that if Las Vegas hangs a number, then that's the perfect number and all kinds of sophistication went into the process. Meanwhile, it's often one guy assigned to a particular category and he's at home munching on pizza while deciding what numbers to use. His biases go into the process. The Cantor guy conceded last year that the Dolphins were closer to 7.5 based on mathematical application of the projected pointspreads but he decided to use 6.5. That's called shading the number.

Unfortunately the mistakes aren't as prevalent as they used to be. That's why I'm no longer in town full time. Neither are many of my friends from that era. We got spoiled by knowledge that certain sportsbooks would always screw up the same categories, like forgetting that college basketball over/unders are not balanced by half. The second half is higher scoring by more than 10%. Some books would butcher that at the start of every season. Nowadays with all the corporate mergers, and emphasis on a conservative approach from upper management, the gaffes are rarely available and you have to actually pick winners. Where's the fun in that? I liked it better when it was off the cuff, like the Dunes sportsbook manager throwing hockey totals on the board within minutes of me asking him what happened to them, on the first day of the playoffs. Then I had to restrain laughter when he threw them up 1.5 or 2 goals higher on every game than Gary Austin's was dealing them down the Strip. They were the only two joints booking hockey totals in that era, mid '80s.
.

Under 7.5 on the Rams seems like the lock of the century to me. Cardinals, Seahawks and 49ers could all sweep them. According to a project I'm working on Fisher has been one of the worst performing head coaches in the league, definitely a candidate to lose the locker room. Sam Bradford doesn't inspire confidence. And Micheal Sam could exacerbate the losing of the locker room. Personally, I predict they'll have the first overall pick and announce a move to LA at some point this year.
 
I think we overperformed against good teams and underperformed against bad teams. As a whole, I feel like we overperformed, seeing as we played out best games against very good teams and regressed against bad ones. Regardless of how you slice it, I think we don't match our performance this year, because I don't see anywhere where improvement will be substantive enough to make a difference and I think that our coaching staff simply got lucky in a couple wins and their overall incompetence and failure to turn advantage during the majority of a game into wins is the mark of a staff that will never, ever be good enough to rise to the top half of a league where most of the coaches are very skilled.
 
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