Dolphins Update: Team trying to Lure Carroll

[dolphinjay]

ck,

what about giving another coach total control over personnel, which carroll would undoubtedly get? do you really think that's a wise thing to do given our recent history?

or is the media overblowing that aspect?

 

[PeterNorth]

We are still pretty much basing any desire on getting Carroll on what he is doing at USC, which we might as well base it on how well Pete is at Hopscotch, or dominoes, or painting.
Pete just wasnt that impressive, the lack of incoming talent notwithstanding in his first go around. Had he not gone to USC I seriously doubt anyone ever thinks of his name again. Instead he goes to USC and starts rocking to college world, so now hes suddenly a hot name again. BS. I wouldnt want to touch him with a 10 foot pole, let alone hand over complete control of the team. I dont want ANYONE to have Gm and HC duties, especially a guy who has built his rep in the college ranks. Thats just a disaster waiting to happen.

Come on Pete, realize how damn good you have it at USC and stay there and give us suffering Phin fans a break.

That is more or less the way I felt about it when I first heard that Wayne was interested in Pete. The more I think about it, though, the more I realize that the whole thing really is a crapshoot in the end. Look at the opposite end of the spectrum. Jimmy Johnson had all the success in the NFL that you could really want a potential coach to have. Yet he couldn't take this team any further than the divisional round of the playoffs-no further than Shula had at the end of his reign, and also a level Wanny would match once. JJ did make some great draft picks on the defensive side of the ball, but that's about it.

 

[TexanPhinatic]

That's sort of like saying that if Belichick didn't retreat to Bill Parcells' defensive staff after his complete and total failures in Cleveland, we'd likely have never heard his name again.

Yes the old BB exception trotted out again. I really respect your opinions here CK, but I completely disagree with you on Carroll (im assuming by your tone that your up for having him as our coach). I dont remember Carroll leaving on the best of terms with NFL teams lining up for another shot at him. Had Bill B. gone to college instead of coordinating again we could very well be speaking of him in this topic instead of Carroll. But the fact is that Carroll went back to the college ranks and rebuilt his rep there. And I wont argue his success at USC, but god, just look at how many college coaches fail so miserably in the NFL and you just wonder why we wouldnt want to try it again, especially when we are contemplating giving Pete total control ala Wanny and Saban. Whats the mentality here, third times a charm?
Bill B. got lucky, very lucky. He got lucky that he got his second chance, and got insanely lucky that Brady turned out the way he did. Had Bledsoe not gotten hurt and had a mediocre year or two, Bill B could be yet another NFL afterthought.

The fact is that there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules, but by and large, guys who built their rep in college fail in the NFL. This is almost immutable. And yet, here we are, days after getting burned by a college guy, talking about getting ourselves into EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION!!
Think about it, if we dont have a big improvement, and Pete isnt feeling the love and isnt seeing a great longterm prospect, do you think he will turn down 5mil a year to go coach at Michigan or somewhere? No, ofc not, nobody would unless they are stupid. I didnt fault Saban for doing it, just the way he specifically handled it.

Bottom line is, Pete is a college guy, and they scare the crap outta me. Two entirely seperate methods of coaching and living there, and college success is almost universally a non-factor in deciding the fate of an NFL coach.

 

[Semedi]

Carroll is a loser in the NFL, keep him the hell away from my team. :tantrum:

 

[ckparrothead]

ck,

what about giving another coach total control over personnel, which carroll would undoubtedly get? do you really think that's a wise thing to do given our recent history?

or is the media overblowing that aspect?

Yes I do. Carroll's record of recruiting at USC more than speaks for itself. Couple that with his obvious troubles in NE with having Bobby Grier try and pick his talent and you have a recipe for giving Pete Carroll full control.

He has connections and people that can help him. It has long been rumored that Pat Kirwan would go with him to whatever NFL team he decides on, and handle the personnel gruntwork for him. That is something that Belichick had in Pioli that Saban never had in Mueller...a long time friend that was on the same page personnel-wise and could handle those affairs.

Before Carroll got to USC they hadn't been contenders since the late 70's/early 80's when Hudson Houck was tutoring their OLs. All the sudden they start recruiting these all-star caliber players and coaching them up and they win a slice of the national championship in 2003, the real bcs championship in 2004, compete for the championship in 2005, win the rose bowl against the #3 team in the nation in 2006, and are all set to enter 2007 as preseason #1 in the nation.

Bottom line is that nothing about the Saban experience showed us that giving a head coach full control is a mistake. Nothing. Saban stocked us with talent and made some good personnel moves right in his first year. His medical staff are the ones that outright overruled him on Drew Brees. They just plain refused to sign off on it, given the severity of Drew's shoulder injuries. Saban had us going in the right direction, the only problem was it was taking too much of a toll on him and he decided to be a lying weasel and retreat to college.

But one thing really has nothing to do with the other.

Was it wrong for Huizenga to give Don Shula full control? Is it wrong for Bill Belichick to have full control? Was it wrong for Bill Cowher to have full control?

The NFL is littered with success stories where full control allows talented head coaches to get the right kinds of players for their system, PROVIDED that they have people they trust that can do the legwork for them. Pat Kirwan and Lane Kiffin both are experienced enough and are close enough friends to Carroll that they could both help with that tremendously.

 

[icephinfan]

Channel 13 news here just said that Pete Carroll is standing by his statement " I am staying at USC".

 

[ckparrothead]

Yes the old BB exception trotted out again. I really respect your opinions here CK, but I completely disagree with you on Carroll (im assuming by your tone that your up for having him as our coach). I dont remember Carroll leaving on the best of terms with NFL teams lining up for another shot at him. Had Bill B. gone to college instead of coordinating again we could very well be speaking of him in this topic instead of Carroll. But the fact is that Carroll went back to the college ranks and rebuilt his rep there. And I wont argue his success at USC, but god, just look at how many college coaches fail so miserably in the NFL and you just wonder why we wouldnt want to try it again, especially when we are contemplating giving Pete total control ala Wanny and Saban. Whats the mentality here, third times a charm?
Bill B. got lucky, very lucky. He got lucky that he got his second chance, and got insanely lucky that Brady turned out the way he did. Had Bledsoe not gotten hurt and had a mediocre year or two, Bill B could be yet another NFL afterthought.

The fact is that there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules, but by and large, guys who built their rep in college fail in the NFL. This is almost immutable. And yet, here we are, days after getting burned by a college guy, talking about getting ourselves into EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION!!
Think about it, if we dont have a big improvement, and Pete isnt feeling the love and isnt seeing a great longterm prospect, do you think he will turn down 5mil a year to go coach at Michigan or somewhere? No, ofc not, nobody would unless they are stupid. I didnt fault Saban for doing it, just the way he specifically handled it.

Bottom line is, Pete is a college guy, and they scare the crap outta me. Two entirely seperate methods of coaching and living there, and college success is almost universally a non-factor in deciding the fate of an NFL coach.

First off, if you don't want me to trot out the Belichick "exception" then perhaps you'd prefer I trot out the Shanahan exception? Either way is fine with me.

Why do you insist on calling Pete Carroll a "college coach"?

He has 6 years of experience as a defensive backs coach with the Buffalo Bills and Minnesota Vikings. He has 6 years of experience as a defensive coordinator with the Jets and 49ers. He has 4 years of experience as a head coach with the Jets and Patriots.

And only 6 years of experience coaching USC.

I mean seriously, 16 of the guy's last 22 years have been spent coaching in the NFL.

Why did he go to USC instead of becoming a D-Coord again? Well, he could have become a D-Coord again, easy. He chose not to. USC paid better, and he got to be a head coach and win some championships instead of playing second-fiddle again. It was actually the best move for his career.

I mean seriously if the biggest knock anyone can find on Pete Carroll is "college coach" then you can just toss that out the window because the man isn't a college coach. His NFL experience dwarfs that of even Nick Saban.

 

[TexanPhinatic]

Yes I do. Carroll's record of recruiting at USC more than speaks for itself. Couple that with his obvious troubles in NE with having Bobby Grier try and pick his talent and you have a recipe for giving Pete Carroll full control.

He has connections and people that can help him. It has long been rumored that Pat Kirwan would go with him to whatever NFL team he decides on, and handle the personnel gruntwork for him. That is something that Belichick had in Pioli that Saban never had in Mueller...a long time friend that was on the same page personnel-wise and could handle those affairs.

Before Carroll got to USC they hadn't been contenders since the late 70's/early 80's when Hudson Houck was tutoring their OLs. All the sudden they start recruiting these all-star caliber players and coaching them up and they win a slice of the national championship in 2003, the real bcs championship in 2004, compete for the championship in 2005, win the rose bowl against the #3 team in the nation in 2006, and are all set to enter 2007 as preseason #1 in the nation.

Bottom line is that nothing about the Saban experience showed us that giving a head coach full control is a mistake. Nothing. Saban stocked us with talent and made some good personnel moves right in his first year. His medical staff are the ones that outright overruled him on Drew Brees. They just plain refused to sign off on it, given the severity of Drew's shoulder injuries. Saban had us going in the right direction, the only problem was it was taking too much of a toll on him and he decided to be a lying weasel and retreat to college.

But one thing really has nothing to do with the other.

Was it wrong for Huizenga to give Don Shula full control? Is it wrong for Bill Belichick to have full control? Was it wrong for Bill Cowher to have full control?

The NFL is littered with success stories where full control allows talented head coaches to get the right kinds of players for their system, PROVIDED that they have people they trust that can do the legwork for them. Pat Kirwan and Lane Kiffin both are experienced enough and are close enough friends to Carroll that they could both help with that tremendously.

College recruiting and NFL drafting are two entirely different monsters, you of all people should appreciate that. You pretty much know what your getting out of high school kids going into college. All Pete had to do was farm the immense amount of talent coming out of Cali already and start building a name. Once a college team shows promise recruits flock to them for the chance to compete for a title and show off to NFL scouts.
I do agree with you on the point about Kirwan being compared to Pioli. There can be successes with GM/HC combos, but Im still of the opinion that giving all that control to one person is a bad idea. I want my coach coaching my team, not trying to figure out who we should be drafting in round 6. Besides, how many players do you think that Pioli gave a thumbs down on BB went ahead and took anyway. Cowher was in the NFL as a HC for what, 15 years before he finally won?
I think that to have any sort of success as a combo you absolutely need the kind of dynamic you theorize Carroll/Kirwan brings, but I still think its giving to much power to one man.
As for Saban leaving us "stocked with talent" thats still debatable. I would like to see more consistency from Ronnie (im a big fan btw, but he still has alot to prove for where he was picked), and would like to see WAY more out of allen. Roth and Hagan seem to be developing nice though. Time will tell. But in the end I would expect anyone to be able to do a halfdecent job. Its nice to see Pete potentially has a support system in place, but I still want nothing to do with him.

Point is, Carroll is a guy who built his rep in college, and they have failed almost unanimously. I just dont see the upside to taking him.

 

[TexanPhinatic]

Not to mention I totally forgot to keep arguing on the whole "lure" point. Just assume for a minute that Carroll doesnt see this going as well as he hoped.
Do you see him turing down $5 mill from Michigan or wherever to be their next coach? No. Your just setting yourself up for more of the same!

 

[ckparrothead]

I can tell you right now that when Carroll started there, there was nothing to distinguish USC from other Cali teams like UCLA and Cal. And for that matter, other Pac-10 schools like Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Arizona, Arizona State, etc.

You're completely glossing over the recruiting process as if it's soooo easy when the fact of the matter is it is as refined a process as NFL drafting is, and yes I of all people should know.

And I TOTALLY disagree with the statement that you know what you are getting out of high school students going into college. In fact, I'd be willing to say that there's even more unpredictability in them than there are college kids going pro.

 

[ckparrothead]

Not to mention I totally forgot to keep arguing on the whole "lure" point. Just assume for a minute that Carroll doesnt see this going as well as he hoped.
Do you see him turing down $5 mill from Michigan or wherever to be their next coach? No. Your just setting yourself up for more of the same!

Huizenga made a mistake not including buyout language in Saban's contract. It is not a mistake he'll make again. If Pete says no to the buyout language that effectively prevents him from going to college, then we say no to Pete. It's as simple as that.

 

[fishypete]

You know the more I read this stuff....the more I have to laugh...Fans are just crazy...aren't we? I, don't want this guy....I, want this guy....I'll give up my season tickets...I'll stamp my feet....GEE WIZ....Like we have any say.

Nothing ever changes...when you really think about it...the Dolphins are going to do what ever they can to SELL TICKETS....and if that means bringing in a college coach or some hot shot coach from another NFL team...it's going to happen...if we like it or not. So relax...and wait for the out come.

The only choice you have is....do you want to be a Dolphin fan...well, do you?

 

[Mogwai]

Wayne is making such a large show of courting Carroll that it strikes me this could just be a misdirection. As far as whether Carroll really does become our HC, I have no problem with that. His struggles in the NFL are greatly exagerrated. The problem I have with Carroll is giving him complete control. That is a ridiculous and terrible idea. Whoever is our next coach is going to need a great deal of support from within the organization if we're going to go anywhere.

 

[TexanPhinatic]

I can tell you right now that when Carroll started there, there was nothing to distinguish USC from other Cali teams like UCLA and Cal. And for that matter, other Pac-10 schools like Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Arizona, Arizona State, etc.

You're completely glossing over the recruiting process as if it's soooo easy when the fact of the matter is it is as refined a process as NFL drafting is, and yes I of all people should know.

And I TOTALLY disagree with the statement that you know what you are getting out of high school students going into college. In fact, I'd be willing to say that there's even more unpredictability in them than there are college kids going pro.

Didnt mean to imply it was THAT easy, and Im aware USC wasnt a powerhouse before the Carroll era. But anytime an NFL coach comes to the NCAA it generates buzz, that alone provided an advantage. Im not saying Carroll wasnt responsible for the recruiting, I AM saying it doesnt seem comparable to how we will be drafting come april. Pete did a good job at USC in almost every facet, I wont deny it, but I WILL deny that this stuff translates to the NFL.

As for a buyout option, great, what does that accomplish? It still means we are without a coach in 2 more years, and starting this process once again. Tell me right now there is not a greater chance of Pete Carroll fleeing in 2 years than, say, Ken Wisenhunt. College teams will be falling all over themselves to recruit him back the moment Miami falters. I can already see the vultures lined up.
I said Michigan, that wasnt idle talk. One more year of Lloyd Carr blowing big games and hes gone. You dont think they wont pony up big time get Pete on their sideline?

 

[dolphinjay]

ck is right. carroll is and always has been an nfl guy, and certainly much more than saban ever was.

i'm not as opposed to carroll as others.

too many people on here scream and holler about getting an nfl assistant (which both carroll and saban were, btw) like they're some kind of automatic slam dunk.

for every mangini and payton there's norv turner and dave wannstadt and ray rhodes and chan gailey and jim haslett and gregg williams and mike martz and dom capers and mike sherman and mike mularkey and dave mcginnis and dick lebeau. . .

the list goes on.