Dolphins Will Run Both A 4-3 And 3-4 This Year.

[ANUFan]

I'm pretty sure it will still be mostly nickel and dime. While the 43 vs 34 used to mean the front seven … I think it's being bastardized a bit here. What they really mean is a 3 man front sometimes and a 4 man front other times. Or, as Slimm points out, this is a variation of how we implement the 4th guy, who sometimes will look like a LB and other times look like a DE.

This is very exciting. The Patriots have taken prospects that didn't quite fit into other schemes perfectly and used them effectively with this multiple front approach. It almost reminds me of Bill Walsh, who designed one of the first ball-control short passing systems, called the West Coast Offense after his west coast San Francisco 49'ers (but he initially developed it in Cincinnati to deal with QB Ken Anderson's decreased arm strength). Walsh was looking for offensive linemen who were mobile, but was OK with guys who didn't quite have as much power and size. So, he could get guys who were ideal for his system in the middle rounds, so he traded back, got lots of picks, and took those guys at what was essentially a discount.

The Patriots have gotten guys who have good athletic ability, but maybe not truly elite quickness or maybe not ideal length, so they slipped down the draft boards or were cut. The Patriots recycled a lot of those guys and sifted through them to find a few really good fits. Guys like Kyle Van Noy, who failed elsewhere, but succeeded in the multiple front system because he does a number of things fairly well.

What makes this so encouraging is that it means we should be able to build a competitive defense, and maybe a good defense, relatively quickly. Seeing as how that is Coach Flores' area of concentration, I'm excited to see what he builds. Given that we're tanking for a year, that gives him two drafts and two off-seasons to get his guys in place. We haven't had a strong defense since the Coyle/Nolan years, and many people made it their life's focus to criticize them. Honestly, they were pretty good overall. This system that Flores/Graham want to run probably means that in a few years our defense is going to return to being a perennial top 10 defense … and it will be a welcome return.

I'm Curious, How do you think an undersized LB w above average speed like Baker fits into all of this? When they go 3-4 does he come off the field?

 

[Mach2]

I'm Curious, How do you think an undersized LB w above average speed like Baker fits into all of this? When they go 3-4 does he come off the field?

I think Baker will fit perfectly in this type of defense. Even Patrick Graham said he doesn't look at it as 3-4 v 4-3. It's more about spacing, and putting players in position to play to their strengths, while attacking an opponents vulnerabilities.

Baker is a top level athlete, and by all accounts, football smart. I don't see the downside.

I also think it's possible for him to add 10 lbs without sacrificing speed.

 

[Digital]

Good stuff...

For me this directly relates to high IQ coaching with a keen eye towards talent evaluation -- yet more specifically -- utilizing the prevailing talent in creative and innovative ways.

Your take on Walsh is spot on -- and tho at the time I couldn't stand the arrogant SOB, there's no doubt he was a brilliant football mind and pretty much changed the course of the game as much as any coach -- even (going wayyyyyy back) Paul Brown.

Early to mid Shula was also strong at finding talent in bargain bins and making really smart trades -- tho his proficiency of college talent evaluation betrayed him in his latter days. But let's go back and remember Joe Thomas and Bobby Beathard -- both who were brilliant evaluators -- Beathard among the very best ever IMO.

Relating this to the topic of the thread -- I hope Flores & Co are both innovative schematically and creative in their evaluation/utilization of talent. Seriously, the smart approach is the key to winning consistently and finding the edge over the competition.

Honestly I have no idea if Flores is a certified high IQ football coach. But from the get go, I liked the fact he came up from scouting and had essentially a holistic training/mentorship under BB in NE. Tho of course I can't stand that certified cheater there's no denying he's a mofo force @HC.

Last -- it's those "tweeners" and "hybrid" dudes where you can really find some amazing value -- and as JJ clearly demonstrated -- dudes way out of traditional spec like Zach and JT (who was bean pole rookie) can be HOF.

I'm a huge Don Shula fan, and I'm sure he had say in it, but he was never the talent guru. The talent guru's you mentioned were key, Joe Thomas and Bobby Beathard. For a coach to be successful it requires virtually all of his time. That means he cannot consistently be successful as a talent scout, and him ultimately "buying the groceries" as Bill Parcells once demanded to do … is just a recipe for disaster.

Sure, the Head Coach needs to have input on the players he gets … but in the end the final decision maker needs to be someone who has the time to pour into it to really get to know the variables. They're not all gems, and we've had more than our fair share of bad ones, but here's hoping that Grier is a good one. Our last few drafts have been good, and if we keep this up, we'll rebuild nicely.

 

[Digital]

I'm Curious, How do you think an undersized LB w above average speed like Baker fits into all of this? When they go 3-4 does he come off the field?

I'm not the biggest Baker fan. So, here's is my assessment, and it is more negative than most around here. He has absolutely elite speed for the position though, that's really his #1 trait by a wide margin. Today's LB's are morphing into a hybrid S/LB type position, and Baker's speed makes him almost prototypical for that position. However, he's small, not powerful, and doesn't seem to be a grinder. He doesn't put in the time in the film room or studying his playbook to really be assignment-sound.

Obviously, my view of him is not as high as most on this board, but it isn't because he lacks physical ability … it's because he doesn't do the work. If the new coaching staff can reach him, they can bring out his natural ability that made him one of the very highest recruits in the country when he went to Ohio State. But Ohio State couldn't reach him, and Burke certainly didn't reach him … so it is no guarantee that Flores & Co. will flip the switch with him. But if the light ever comes on, and he becomes a grinder in the Cam Wake/Kenny Stills mold, he has the talent to be a three down LB in today's coverage-heavy NFL.

The multiple front system doesn't really play to his strength per-se, as that system places an emphasis on versatility, and his thing is pure speed. But, he can use that speed for coverage, which is increasingly a primary requirement for LB's, and he can use it to rush the passer as long as he's able to get free unblocked. But, this system requires a LOT of knowledge processing, and that's not Baker's strength. My biggest worry isn't that he will come off on third down, but rather that he's not going to master the material enough to understand his role as we change alignment, assignment, and roles on the fly. This type of system places a premium on exactly what are Baker's weaknesses … studying film/playbook, practicing after practice, and reliably doing your job. Baker is better in a system that rewards speed and places few requirements on the hard-work stuff.

If Baker can become assignment sound, his speed and coverage ability means he can become a three down LB. But, he's never going to have the size to be a hybrid OLB/DE edge-rusher or a powerful stack-and-shed run stuffer. His best role is as a fire-and-forget missile where he can use his speed to without being neutralized by blockers.

 

[elite14eva]

 

[39wildman]

4-3 will be there main defense this yr. until they can get player that can play both. dolphins used to run both defense about 10 yr ago. it take them about 2 to 3 yr get def playing 3-4

 

[DPhinz_DPhinz]

He doesn't put in the time in the film room or studying his playbook to really be assignment-sound.

This assumes a bit much....

 

[Avalanche of Wins]

I'm not the biggest Baker fan. So, here's is my assessment, and it is more negative than most around here. He has absolutely elite speed for the position though, that's really his #1 trait by a wide margin. Today's LB's are morphing into a hybrid S/LB type position, and Baker's speed makes him almost prototypical for that position. However, he's small, not powerful, and doesn't seem to be a grinder. He doesn't put in the time in the film room or studying his playbook to really be assignment-sound.

Obviously, my view of him is not as high as most on this board, but it isn't because he lacks physical ability … it's because he doesn't do the work. If the new coaching staff can reach him, they can bring out his natural ability that made him one of the very highest recruits in the country when he went to Ohio State. But Ohio State couldn't reach him, and Burke certainly didn't reach him … so it is no guarantee that Flores & Co. will flip the switch with him. But if the light ever comes on, and he becomes a grinder in the Cam Wake/Kenny Stills mold, he has the talent to be a three down LB in today's coverage-heavy NFL.

The multiple front system doesn't really play to his strength per-se, as that system places an emphasis on versatility, and his thing is pure speed. But, he can use that speed for coverage, which is increasingly a primary requirement for LB's, and he can use it to rush the passer as long as he's able to get free unblocked. But, this system requires a LOT of knowledge processing, and that's not Baker's strength. My biggest worry isn't that he will come off on third down, but rather that he's not going to master the material enough to understand his role as we change alignment, assignment, and roles on the fly. This type of system places a premium on exactly what are Baker's weaknesses … studying film/playbook, practicing after practice, and reliably doing your job. Baker is better in a system that rewards speed and places few requirements on the hard-work stuff.

If Baker can become assignment sound, his speed and coverage ability means he can become a three down LB. But, he's never going to have the size to be a hybrid OLB/DE edge-rusher or a powerful stack-and-shed run stuffer. His best role is as a fire-and-forget missile where he can use his speed to without being neutralized by blockers.

Have not seen anything in regards to Baker being unwilling to study and unreliable in his assignments, i am curious where you heard or saw that?

 

[Mach2]

Have not seen anything in regards to Baker being unwilling to study and unreliable in his assignments, i am curious where you heard or saw that?

I think I recall some pre draft speculation by some obscure source, but nothing I saw last year, in any way, gives me that impression.

 

[Digital]

This assumes a bit much....

Just relaying what I've heard. His reputation preceded him from Ohio State, and I'm hoping he eventually fixes it.

 

[Digital]

Have not seen anything in regards to Baker being unwilling to study and unreliable in his assignments, i am curious where you heard or saw that?

Heard it. Not at liberty to say where. Watch for yourself and draw your own conclusion is the best I can say.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Baker would have been a part-time player in NE, and that role was cut back in 2018 under Flores FWIW.

 

[DPhinz_DPhinz]

Baker would have been a part-time player in NE, and that role was cut back in 2018 under Flores FWIW.

Is that because NE doesn't play 3 LB's, with the possibility of one being a WILL (Baker)?

If the Pats don't play 5 - 6 DB's...what kind of LB could/would be the 3rd one on the field with a DL made to keep the LB's clean?

 

[nick1]

Baker is a great blitzer. To me you aren't doing your job as a playcaller if you can't find him ways to get to the QB. Hes also pretty good in coverage. You have to be able to utilize him

 

[Mach2]

Baker would have been a part-time player in NE, and that role was cut back in 2018 under Flores FWIW.

That may be true, but I would point out a couple things to qualify that statement.

Your saying a mid rd rookie wouldn't see much playing time on a SB quality defense? OK, that's hardly shocking. Nor would I consider it a huge disappointment.

Just because he didn't necessarily fit perfectly in the particular combination of player the Pats had, doesn't mean Flores/Graham won't find a role (possibly a bug one) for him here.

He is very fast, very athletic, and when given the opportunity to blitz, and do other things, he showed up quite well IMO. He also just now full grown. I will be a bit disappointed in him if he doesn't come back this year a little heaver, and a lot stronger.