Don't Want A Rookie On the 2014 OL

[Show Me Your TDs]

Cyril should be a 3rd round prospect. We have more needs than OL, just because you want them to play doesn't mean they shouldn't earn it. If you just hand it to them and they falter, you're in the same predicament as last year. We can upgrade at RB, TE, DT, LB, FS, you can't just reach for **** because you put your most significant needs off till the start of the draft. That's how you stay mediocre.

I don't think Cyril fits what we want to do on offense. If we are going to move to a true ZBS put the right players (size/mold) in the position to succeed. Tired of the square peg round hole syndrome the FO suffered from under Ireland.

 

[FearTheBeard]

RB yes, TE notas bad as many think, LB already has so much $$ invested in it that its hard to justify it early in the draft. FS is a wildcard because Clemons is good but you dont know what he want. I agree that you cant it too rookie but you cant overspend on FA lineman that could be worse than any draftpick. bast case is to get 3 FA 3 draft picks and make them earn their spots. if the rookie wins the job good cut the FA if its the other way you can have a solid backup. I understand its not gonna go OL, OL, OL, OL but you cant just sign 4 guys for so much cap that you have no options anywhere else

I've never said that's how I'd handle FA. I've been saying middle tier, the most expensive guy I'd go after is Collins. You can sign 3 guys and chew up less than $15m in space AND fix the line. That's all I'm saying, you aren't screwing yourself against the cap and you're not handcuffing yourself on draft day. I'd rather fix everything, draft a guy like Amaro who can help in the redzone.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

I don't think Cyril fits what we want to do on offense. If we are going to move to a true ZBS put the right players (size/mold) in the position to succeed. Tired of the square peg round hole syndrome the FO suffered from under Ireland.

Yup.

 

[123phins]

I've never said that's how I'd handle FA. I've been saying middle tier, the most expensive guy I'd go after is Collins. You can sign 3 guys and chew up less than $15m in space AND fix the line. That's all I'm saying, you aren't screwing yourself against the cap and you're not handcuffing yourself on draft day. I'd rather fix everything, draft a guy like Amaro who can help in the redzone.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------



Yup.

i hear the cap is around 30, id assume 7-8 for grimes or 10 with the tag, the draft would be around 6-7 (complete guess). hopefully either solia or starks for 6-7. Its gonna be tough to get 4 guys (not saying your suggestion but this thread) and leave room for other things.

 

[So Be]

RB yes, TE notas bad as many think, LB already has so much $$ invested in it that its hard to justify it early in the draft. FS is a wildcard because Clemons is good but you dont know what he want. I agree that you cant it too rookie but you cant overspend on FA lineman that could be worse than any draftpick. bast case is to get 3 FA 3 draft picks and make them earn their spots. if the rookie wins the job good cut the FA if its the other way you can have a solid backup. I understand its not gonna go OL, OL, OL, OL but you cant just sign 4 guys for so much cap that you have no options anywhere else

Beard and myself have a OL budget of $15-16M for the OL this year. We lost over $12M in cap space in our 4 FA's. So, you're looking at spending an additional $3-4M to fix our biggest problem, with the cap going up $5M, and anticipated to go up much more next year due to TV revenue.

How much are you looking to spend to fix our biggest problem, considering that we are roughly $30M under the cap, and do not have many other major needs aside from Grimes and DT?

 

[So Be]

i hear the cap is around 30, id assume 7-8 for grimes or 10 with the tag, the draft would be around 6-7 (complete guess). hopefully either solia or starks for 6-7. Its gonna be tough to get 4 guys (not saying your suggestion but this thread) and leave room for other things.

You need to understand the cap, and it's flexibility. You do not pay the contract average the first year, and we can very easily spend the $15-16M on the OL this year. Guaranteed.

 

[123phins]

Beard and myself have a OL budget of $15-16M for the OL this year. We lost over $12M in cap space in our 4 FA's. So, you're looking at spending an additional $3-4M to fix our biggest problem, with the cap going up $5M, and anticipated to go up much more next year due to TV revenue.

How much are you looking to spend to fix our biggest problem, considering that we are roughly $30M under the cap, and do not have many other major needs aside from Grimes and DT?

you have the whole draft class so whatever that costs. grimes could be anywhere from 7-10, 6-7 for DT, I hope clemons stays but idk. I would want the best tackle available yes collins is good but as stated throughout this thread he is a middle guy. I would say around the same for the cap but not on middle talent guy which got the line in trouble in the first place. Clabo was supposed to be a decent pickup and was horrible. so 15M and half that on a LT so 3 more guys on 7M you aren't getting the quality there

 

[FearTheBeard]

you have the whole draft class so whatever that costs. grimes could be anywhere from 7-10, 6-7 for DT, I hope clemons stays but idk. I would want the best tackle available yes collins is good but as stated throughout this thread he is a middle guy. I would say around the same for the cap but not on middle talent guy which got the line in trouble in the first place. Clabo was supposed to be a decent pickup and was horrible. so 15M and half that on a LT so 3 more guys on 7M you aren't getting the quality there

I've crunched all this **** a ton, but http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Dolphins. We enter the offseason with $32,574,788. That's with no restructures, or cuts. You cut both Patterson and Moore that free's up $10m more. The draft class isn't particularly expensive, plus in the offseason they'll just be knocking slightly cheaper guys off the 53. So maybe 3-4 million on the rookies. I'd sign 3 guys, or 4 with one guy at the minimum. Collins shouldn't cost more than $6m, so in SB's case he has $9m for 3 guys, which is probably 2 above average linemen, and one average-below average guy. In my case I've got $9m for 2 guys, which should net 2 solid guys.

 

[123phins]

last year the line coming into the season was mediocre and got ripped apart and now the suggestion is to piece together another mediocre line

 

[So Be]

I've crunched all this **** a ton, but http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Dolphins. We enter the offseason with $32,574,788. That's with no restructures, or cuts. You cut both Patterson and Moore that free's up $10m more. The draft class isn't particularly expensive, plus in the offseason they'll just be knocking slightly cheaper guys off the 53. So maybe 3-4 million on the rookies. I'd sign 3 guys, or 4 with one guy at the minimum. Collins shouldn't cost more than $6m, so in SB's case he has $9m for 3 guys, which is probably 2 above average linemen, and one average-below average guy. In my case I've got $9m for 2 guys, which should net 2 solid guys.

I'm not sure you are doing the same but, I am allowing for the first year discount and contract structure, and not the average contract value, which will never be seen.

An extreme example would be Wallace playing for a $1M salary last year, and $15M this year. I am not going near that extreme but, if I was going just on the average, it would be closer to $20M than $15M.

 

[So Be]

last year the line coming into the season was mediocre and got ripped apart and now the suggestion is to piece together another mediocre line

Not true. The plan has merit, and if Ireland had made the trade for Albert, we would not be having this discussion. How has the draft filled in the blanks in the last 10 years?

 

[FearTheBeard]

last year the line coming into the season was mediocre and got ripped apart and now the suggestion is to piece together another mediocre line

No it isn't. It's to find the right players for fair value. That's what good teams do, to pair with a draft class where they can take BPA and fill the team with talent throughout. Right now you're drafting a very impressive guard prospect, a guard that doesn't fit our system and has some major issues and Moses who has great feet, but suffers from consistently poor technique.


---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

I'm not sure you are doing the same but, I am allowing for the first year discount and contract structure, and not the average contract value, which will never be seen.

An extreme example would be Wallace playing for a $1M salary last year, and $15M this year. I am not going near that extreme but, if I was going just on the average, it would be closer to $20M than $15M.

Ya I've been keeping the contracts flat early on, and they still fit.

 

[123phins]

No it isn't. It's to find the right players for fair value. That's what good teams do, to pair with a draft class where they can take BPA and fill the team with talent throughout.

Your suggesting getting Collins for 6M who is better than average but not great, then get 2 more guys for about 3M each. Thats a mediocre line that cant hold agisnt good defences. You can get the BPA and get a guy like Ebron or whatever other playmaker but if the line cant hold the ball never makes it to that BPA

Although a mediocre line is better than spending $20M with a $15M cap hit and have to cut a year later because you got away with the cap early in the contract,

 

[jacquesstrap]

Miami had no rookies on their offensive line in 2013 and they completely sucked. I can't think that having rookies play will be any worse than the ineptitude that was on display with veteran linemen.

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58 sacks allowed by an offensive line that was mainly veteran players.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Your suggesting getting Collins for 6M who is better than average but not great, then get 2 more guys for about 3M each. Thats a mediocre line that cant hold agisnt good defences. You can get the BPA and get a guy like Ebron or whatever other playmaker but if the line cant hold the ball never makes it to that BPA

Although a mediocre line is better than spending $20M with a $15M cap hit and have to cut a year later because you got away with the cap early in the contract,

You obviously don't understand the cap, and you obviously don't know there's good value to be had in every FA crop. My approach, get good pass protectors on the outside, maulers on the inside. $6m for Collins, elite pass protector. Then $15m-$6m isn't $6m, so don't get where you're getting 2 guys for 3 each, roughly 4.5 each. Solid starter contracts. So you already have one of the best centers in football, a guy who didn't allow a sack the year before and a stop gap, probably a tackle that you can draft a replacement behind. There's tons of good G/C's to choose from to man one of the OL spots, so we don't have half a line of rookies, who are expected to start and play next to each other. Recipe for disaster. You don't need an elite OL, you need a good OL. Waaaay too many resources your route and the margin for error is much slimmer. I don't see how a line of say Collins-DraftPick-Pouncey-Asamoah-Ryan Harris is mediocre. Athletic lineman that get to the second level. We go your route, we got one guy who doesn't even fit our scheme, and an overpaid fat boy like Albert.

What's your contingency plan? You saw last year when guys like Terron Armstead were taken right before our pick and we had to panic and reach for need. Ended up with Dallas Thomas. Moses is considered a top-64 pick, who's next in line? Martin is getting a lot of love right now, what if he's off the board? I've also mentioned Cyril isn't a fit. Entering a draft with an OL of Albert-Garner-Pouncey-Brenner-Yeatman?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

When you run the ball fewer than 22 times per game the offensive line will suffer. Same personnel in a more balanced attack would look significantly better. That's why I don't think there's full return in scrutinizing our line play, particularly late in the season. I like to do it very early early in the season. Late in the year there's far too much danger of being misled. McKinnie is washed up but he stepped in and looked decent for a few games. That wouldn't hold up early in the year but it's not surprising. You can't allow yourself to be fooled. I really don't know why offensive line play can change so dramatically late in the season but I've noted it for more than 20 years. There seems to be greater variance in defensive intensity level late in the year. The front sevens get tired and essentially take some games off, but then a week later they are ferocious again. Other than injury related, as a general manager I'd basically throw out any impression of offensive linemen after midseason.

Our reserves are pathetic. You've got to believe we'll have at least one rookie, perhaps two. Southbeach has the correct perspective in that rookie linemen are not reliable, no matter what it looks like coming out of college. Lane Johnson, for example, didn't resemble his college level at all early this season with the Eagles. Clumsy. If I didn't know better I wouldn't have believed it was the same guy. Often the lower round picks can adjust more quickly, sometimes when they are thrown into the starting lineup later in the year.

I'm not a huge fan of Zach Martin. Yeah, he's good but I don't see special. At this point as a 5th year senior and already 23 years old he's more mature and advanced than the players he has lined up against. Narrow shoulders for tackle or guard. I'm sure he'll be a good reliable pro but I'd prefer taking a swing on great. I think there is value in 3rd or 4th round offensive linemen, despite our example with Dallas Thomas last year. I still can't believe that Brian Schwenke was sitting there in the 4th round last year and we didn't want him. We took Dion Sims one slot ahead of the Titans identifying Schwenke, who started late in the season as a rookie. Schwenke is actually younger than Zach Martin.