For discussion..QB, team, system.

[LithoMan]

I guess I look at it from a point of view, of what the team has to offer. There is no doubt Marino was the best passing QB ever in the NFL. Miami had a superb OL that he stood behind. Witness his sack totals while Shula was the coach. His last couple, with JJ were horrendous, because why? JJ stripped the OL.

Now, I always hear Montana and Brady are the GOAT, Lets look at these too "prototype" QB's. INT's go up, when forced out of pocket. Meaning they get flustered by a pass rush. What happens when the INT's go up, their D's level of intensity go's up.

I credit Montana with being on a team that had the GOAT HC. Bill Walsh is and will always be the Greatest Head Coach. We can debate were the "West Coast" O came from (Paul Brown), but that O is still winning SB titles.

Much like Walsh, Beliceck is winning with his inventive hybrid D. Witness the close scores they win games by. Brady gets all the credit, but without that D responding to Bradys flustered INT, he would just be another 5th round pick. Its the D in NE.

Yes, Elway needed TD. Marino needed a different DC, other then Olividotti. I remember wanting to break a few TV's back in those days. Prevent D does nothing but prevent you from winning. Marino could score with the best of any QB, but our D couldnt stop sheet. Thats when Brian Cox was a stud. Man, I felt for both them boys, they tried so hard, to have the rest of the cast faulter around them. But, I always felt bad for Oliver too, because he tried so hard, and always seemed out of position, because he was playing so freakin deep. Oh well, nough said... them days are long gone....

 

[Dolphin North]

I'm watching QB challenge, again..man I'm bored. Anyway they have Marino, Elway, Boomer, Kosar, and Simms sitting and talking about whether you have to be a top pick to be a good qb and win a super bowl..and their answer is no. Bottom line they said You have to have a supporting cast, good system, and a chance. Of course the Steve Young from tampa to SF was pointed out as a part of their argument as we've done. So if that's the case..if our team's OL is improved, our Running game improves, and a proven scheme with good receivers, will that translate to better QB play. Listening to them, yes, but a lot of you guys don't seem to agree based on the argurements about AJ. Who's right you guys or them..please explain..and guys no one liners..let's really talk this out.

How about a one worder?
Dilfer.

 

[PYPER]

There is no absolute answer.

To be a great team, you need a QB who is unflappable and who rises to the occassion under pressure. You need a quarterback who can make quick decisions and throw the ball to the open man which is a lot easier said than done.

I saw someone mention that Brady wouldn't be effective without his defense or Oline.

But in 2001 the Patriots had a terrible Oline. They had a rookie at LT and were mediocre to poor everywhere else. That's why Bledsoe had been so ineffective in his last few years here.

Anyway, Brady came in and with his quick release and decision making.......HE made the Oline look much better than they ever had before.

So a truly great QB CAN actually make the team around him better. Just like a great point guard can make his teammates better in basketball.

BTW....The Patriots defense was ranked 24th out of 31 teams in 2001.

The thing is that people don't understand greatness. Statistical achievements do NOT make you great. Getting the job done in big spots is what defines (or should define) true greatness.

Michael Jordan wasn't great b/c he led the league in scoring every year. MJ was great b/c he constantly lifted the team on his back and CARRIED THEM TO VICTORY. He was great b/c he was always at his best in the big spots. More than anything, it's his buzzer-beating shots that define MJ. I mean, did that guy EVER miss a shot with the game on the line???

Unfortunately Dolphins fans will never accept that b/c of what it would mean about their beloved Dan Marino.

 

[BlueFin]

But that's Brady in that system, if you put him in Norv's system as played here, is he as successful? The Griese example is a great analysis..when put in this situation, he had problems, put back in a WCO he excelled again. So I'm starting to believe the right system for the right players and tweated to take advantage of what those players do best. AJ is from a WCO system (Philly), ran kind of like Linehan's system. He played well with a great supporting cast, he comes here, our supporting cast, schemes, OC wasn't as great and the results were completely different. He regressed and tried to force the issue, which didn't bode well for him. Now we have an experienced OC, who O seems to work toward AJ's strength, strong armed QB with some skills throwing wise. So one part of the puzzle is solved to me. Now the most important parts. OL, is it where it needs to be? Everything, and I mean everything starts there. Our passing attack and running attack hinges on the OL abilities to open holes and hold their blocks when passing. Linehan's O relies on atleast 4 seconds in the passing game. Culpepper stood back there for awhile before launching some of his bombs, he had plenty of time to find receivers. The thread of thier receivers allowed big holes in the running game. We are somewhat different in that our receivers are good but not as dangerous, we don't have Moss. Our RB's seem to be a better group than last year's, (that goes without saying almost). Having said that I think Linehan will be more balance with this team, until, of course, he gets a sense of what our strenghts are. We maybe suited, personnel wise, more for running than passing. If that's the case, AJ or Gus should have a easier time passing. Play action is a great tool in giving extra time to the QB to fine a receiver.

Thats all true to a point, but last time I checked the Bucs drafted 5th overall which means the team as a whole didn't do very well.

Sometimes a quarterback just isn't very good, regardless of his surrounding cast.

No, you don't have to be a superstar to win as a quarterback in this league, but I think you need to be pretty good.

The point of your thread seems to be a backdoor justification and a defense for AJ Feeley.

We will find out this year if he has what it takes or not.

 

[PHINZONER]

Well let's look at this logically.

Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson

Not great QB'S

Tom Brady- He's not a top pick nor is he a franchise QB. However, the guy is mr clutch and he has a nice supporting cast.

Elway didnt get his SB till Terell Davis was a 2000 yard rusher
Marino never got a SB.

Manning is still searching for a ring.

Some posters are just naive when it comes to the QB position. The QB gets too much blame and credit.

People will always say that all Marino needed was a RB. Yet they don't factor in that he had an O-line, WR'S and a decent defense. The only reason I mention this is because Feeley had a collapsing defense, no O-line and no RB yet they wanna throw him to the curve.

If what u needed was a top QB to be successful then Manning and Marino would have a bunch of rings.

But the fact is simple. You need to surround your QB with talent.

Would Brady be as successful without his defensE or his Oline?
Will Culpepper be as successful without Moss?
Where would Peyton be without Marvin and James?
Would Dilfer had won that SB without Lewis and CREW?

All those answers are simple. They are all no.


You need talent around your QB more then you need a top QB.

Marino had a few years w/ a good D, Elway, Montana, and Young all had better D than Marino did. Miami had a few years w/ a D better than Den. Montana's D was in the top or the top for most of his career. SF had one year in Joe's days that the D was ranked below 8th and it was in the 20s' and only 8th once. the rest were 1,2,or 3.

Elway, Marino, Manning, and Favre make the WRs good. When the WRs' left the #'s remained and the Wr's #s' dropped the next year.

Any way, I agree w/ what you say!
A.J would have looked much better if he had more than the NFL low of an average of 1.9 seconds to throw the ball. How well would Brett, Pep, McNabb, Manning, Brady,Rothlisberger, Green, Breese, Bulger, Hasselbeck have looked w/ that kind of time. PEp and Mcnabb hafd like 4.5+ seconds.

I think Feeley or Gus will be a major improvement just by having better coaches. Coaches that make players play better. Regardless of who wins the starting gig, Feeley would look better this year than last! He shined at times and then he looked bad at others. The fact is he was really a rookie getting his first real shot and then playing hurt on top of it!!!

 

[Phantom]

The reason we had a conservative offense is because we had a Qb who couldn't hit a friggin wide open reciever !!!!!!!!!!!!!! END OF STORY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ch19079]

I'm watching QB challenge, again..man I'm bored. Anyway they have Marino, Elway, Boomer, Kosar, and Simms sitting and talking about whether you have to be a top pick to be a good qb and win a super bowl..and their answer is no. Bottom line they said You have to have a supporting cast, good system, and a chance. Of course the Steve Young from tampa to SF was pointed out as a part of their argument as we've done. So if that's the case..if our team's OL is improved, our Running game improves, and a proven scheme with good receivers, will that translate to better QB play. Listening to them, yes, but a lot of you guys don't seem to agree based on the argurements about AJ. Who's right you guys or them..please explain..and guys no one liners..let's really talk this out.

they are saying that you need a good supporting cast to win a SB. (which has nothing to do with the fins, except those who like to argue for mario as the best QB ever).

but that doesnt mean a good supporting cast will make your QB play better. as for the fins,: a rookie RB, formaly retired RB, very questionable O-Line (even if they are improved, they are still very questionable), 1 solid reciever, 1 steroid user WR, and 1 "im not getting any younger" WR, and 1 very good TE. all that is gunna make AJ (or Gus) so much better that the offense can take the fins to the SB?? i dont think so.

 

[djfresh47]

I'm watching QB challenge, again..man I'm bored. Anyway they have Marino, Elway, Boomer, Kosar, and Simms sitting and talking about whether you have to be a top pick to be a good qb and win a super bowl..and their answer is no. Bottom line they said You have to have a supporting cast, good system, and a chance. Of course the Steve Young from tampa to SF was pointed out as a part of their argument as we've done. So if that's the case..if our team's OL is improved, our Running game improves, and a proven scheme with good receivers, will that translate to better QB play. Listening to them, yes, but a lot of you guys don't seem to agree based on the argurements about AJ. Who's right you guys or them..please explain..and guys no one liners..let's really talk this out.

I watched it also, and i'm not positive but one of the guys said "you need a good one," talking about Qb's. It does not matter where you get him, but you do need a good Qb to win IMO, my best example is the Bills last year with a great defense and top special teams, but average Qb and no playoffs. Also I believe Byron Leftwich said something like "A Qb can't win by himself, but he can lose the game by himself." A good supporting cast will help a Qb, obviously but I don't think a great team can win with an average Qb. Look at the Patriots and Belicheck who was not considered a great coach untill he found a great Qb in Tom Brady, now the Pats have a great defense but they won 2 Super Bowls with Antowain Smith starting at running back, not exactly a special running back, and even last year they did not have a legit number 1 wideout, but rather a bunch of 2-3 wideouts. Obviously those Qb's are right, and the Qb play should be better, but I don't think it will be good enough, if teams want a QB to have the ability to "not lose the game," than those teams are gonna fail IMO. The Ravens of a few seasons is the team most brought up when this is spoken of but that was one of the greatest defenses of all-time, and I don't think teams can get by on that anymore, look at the playoff teams from last year, Brees, Pennington, Manning, Brady, Plummer, Roethislinberger, not exactly a group of bad Qb's. What do you want in a Qb, a guy who won't make as big play, and if the rest of the team plays good than they have a chance to win, or a guy who has the ability to lead the team to victory and can make plays? We had Fiedler for too long, and while his win-loss record was impressive the team could not get it done, if Feeley does not play MUCH better than last year than I don't wanna wait another season, Mike Mularkey and the Bills have come out and named the starting Qb who is less proven than Feeley because the team has confidence in him, why hasn't Saban done the same with Feeley if he's such a great talent, or so i'm lead to believe by many people on this site?

 

[MDFINFAN]

Thats all true to a point, but last time I checked the Bucs drafted 5th overall which means the team as a whole didn't do very well.

Sometimes a quarterback just isn't very good, regardless of his surrounding cast.

No, you don't have to be a superstar to win as a quarterback in this league, but I think you need to be pretty good.

The point of your thread seems to be a backdoor justification and a defense for AJ Feeley.

We will find out this year if he has what it takes or not.

Not really, as someone stated AJ may not start...but both of our QB's have questions about them. I watched AJ in Philly with a great supporting cast and system, and I watched Gus in Minny with a great supporting cast and system and they both seem to do well in those situations. Our situation last year led me to believe that even Danny wouldn't have been very effective given the situation. As someone pointed out, when Jimmy got here and started building the D and taking away from the OL, Danny started struggling to a certain extend, I think his experience at that point helped him a lot to survive the change. But D. Huard and other QB's really struggled in this situation, i.e. lack of talent. Jay had the best results..but that was more with Gailey's system than Norv's. That again brings me to the point, does the system fit the player or does the player fit a system. Is Greise better suited for WCO's or a Norv, (Miami style) O? Would Danny M. have been just as effective in a WCO as he was in the wide open O shula ran? His production defintely dropped when the supporting cast wasn't as good. Brady to me is an avg QB who's had a great supporting cast, especially D. So if our supporting cast is avg to good, will the QB play be better, that's what I'm after, and you're right, if our supporting cast is better then we'll have our answer on AJ or Gus. But the real premise of this threat is: are systems, supporting cast, coaches even, the deciding factor in making a QB good enough to get to a SB and win, or is 1st round talent the deciding factor. So far Brady's success along with Warner's and Dilfer suggest system, supporting cast, and coaching.

 

[PHINZONER]

I guess I look at it from a point of view, of what the team has to offer. There is no doubt Marino was the best passing QB ever in the NFL. Miami had a superb OL that he stood behind. Witness his sack totals while Shula was the coach. His last couple, with JJ were horrendous, because why? JJ stripped the OL.

Now, I always hear Montana and Brady are the GOAT, Lets look at these too "prototype" QB's. INT's go up, when forced out of pocket. Meaning they get flustered by a pass rush. What happens when the INT's go up, their D's level of intensity go's up.

I credit Montana with being on a team that had the GOAT HC. Bill Walsh is and will always be the Greatest Head Coach. We can debate were the "West Coast" O came from (Paul Brown), but that O is still winning SB titles.

Much like Walsh, Beliceck is winning with his inventive hybrid D. Witness the close scores they win games by. Brady gets all the credit, but without that D responding to Bradys flustered INT, he would just be another 5th round pick. Its the D in NE.

Yes, Elway needed TD. Marino needed a different DC, other then Olividotti. I remember wanting to break a few TV's back in those days. Prevent D does nothing but prevent you from winning. Marino could score with the best of any QB, but our D couldnt stop sheet. Thats when Brian Cox was a stud. Man, I felt for both them boys, they tried so hard, to have the rest of the cast faulter around them. But, I always felt bad for Oliver too, because he tried so hard, and always seemed out of position, because he was playing so freakin deep. Oh well, nough said... them days are long gone....

Marino moved better than any QB to ever paly the game. That is why he was sacked so rarely! He would rather throw 3 straight balls out of bounds to help the field position game than to run around and be sacked more than any other QB in history!(Elway) The pocket is where the qb belongs and that is where Marino was the best. Bruce Smith has said he liked to sack Marino more than anybody else b/c you get so close so many times, you hit him w/ the ball get him to the ground and then you look up and the ball is 30 yds down field!

Walsh said it him self, Something to the effect of Marino's mobility and feet were under appreciated, and that he knew how to move in the pocket to buy time better than anybody, rather than leave the pocket. He raved at the mobility Marino had and the knowlege of the pocket! I magine Marino in SF those years?????????? The OL was horrible and JJ took the audible away from marino, that ledd to escalating sack #s'!

 

[PHINZONER]

they are saying that you need a good supporting cast to win a SB. (which has nothing to do with the fins, except those who like to argue for mario as the best QB ever).

but that doesnt mean a good supporting cast will make your QB play better. as for the fins,: a rookie RB, formaly retired RB, very questionable O-Line (even if they are improved, they are still very questionable), 1 solid reciever, 1 steroid user WR, and 1 "im not getting any younger" WR, and 1 very good TE. all that is gunna make AJ (or Gus) so much better that the offense can take the fins to the SB?? i dont think so.

Boston has not been proven guilty of roids, just banned supplements. $200,000 worth of supplements and training a year.

Willis gone a year from playing and he did not miss to much did he? The diffeence is that RW is a former rushing champ thanks to the Bills!!! You hate that, and the fact he is back!!!! Oh and he has not blown his knees out, and Willis still stokes the pipe!!

A more highly coveted rookie w/ more promise than willis had!

O-line has talent and now a coach, the best o-line coach in the game.

Miami has 2 qbs' w/ game experience, and 1 w/ pro-bowl experince.
Buff none!

Buffalo is all to similar, Aging Moulds, unproven Evans, and that is it. No top 5 TE, no former #1 RB, no new scheme to shake things up, and an aging D.

What gives, Both have ?s', do you really believe the Bills have a chance in Hell?

Fact is this, Miami has vastly improved in coaching, rb position, wr position if healthy is better and more dangerous than any in the AFCE, the o-line is healthier and will be better w/ a healthy return of pieces from last year, and the D line is far superior than ever before. That means pressure on the likes of rookie JP! It may not take us to a super bowl, but it will take us further than the JP led JILLS!

 

[BlueFin]

The thing is that people don't understand greatness. Statistical achievements do NOT make you great. Getting the job done in big spots is what defines (or should define) true greatness.

Unfortunately Dolphins fans will never accept that b/c of what it would mean about their beloved Dan Marino.

In team Sports, you cannot limit the term greatness to players involved in team championships.

Marino took a team in 1984 with the 19th ranked defense out of 28 teams, with no great runningback, went 14-2 and was only stopped by one of the better Niner teams of that long Niner run in Superbowl 19.

For you to suggest Marino wasn't great because of the lack of talent around him is simply moronic.

Does anyone doubt Marino would not have won Superbowls had he been a Niner in the eighties? I believe Buffalo would have won some too had Marino quarterbacked those excellent Bills teams of the early nineties.

Was Fran Tarkenton not a great QB? Dan Fouts?

 

[PHINZONER]

Dead on!!!!!!

 

[BlueFin]

Not really, as someone stated AJ may not start...but both of our QB's have questions about them. I watched AJ in Philly with a great supporting cast and system, and I watched Gus in Minny with a great supporting cast and system and they both seem to do well in those situations. Our situation last year led me to believe that even Danny wouldn't have been very effective given the situation. As someone pointed out, when Jimmy got here and started building the D and taking away from the OL, Danny started struggling to a certain extend, I think his experience at that point helped him a lot to survive the change. But D. Huard and other QB's really struggled in this situation, i.e. lack of talent. Jay had the best results..but that was more with Gailey's system than Norv's. That again brings me to the point, does the system fit the player or does the player fit a system. Is Greise better suited for WCO's or a Norv, (Miami style) O? Would Danny M. have been just as effective in a WCO as he was in the wide open O shula ran? His production defintely dropped when the supporting cast wasn't as good. Brady to me is an avg QB who's had a great supporting cast, especially D. So if our supporting cast is avg to good, will the QB play be better, that's what I'm after, and you're right, if our supporting cast is better then we'll have our answer on AJ or Gus. But the real premise of this threat is: are systems, supporting cast, coaches even, the deciding factor in making a QB good enough to get to a SB and win, or is 1st round talent the deciding factor. So far Brady's success along with Warner's and Dilfer suggest system, supporting cast, and coaching.

Its a combination of everything, you have to have a complete team to be the best in the league.

Fiedler did not play better than Danny did up until that last season when Danny had the shoulder injury, Fiedler held this team back because he couldn't attack the whole field and he was not consistent.

Marino in the JJ era had a young defense that was not as good as the one Fiedler had and he didn't have a Lamar Smith or a Ricky Williams.

For a couple years, Warner was one of the best in the league, injuries diminished his skills.

Brady is also one of the best in the league, he is a money player.

The point is, if you have an average quarterback the rest of your team and coaching better be excellent, if he a great QB there is more room for error on the rest of the team.

But ultimately, you need a complete team to be the best.

 

[PHINZONER]

Its a combination of everything, you have to have a complete team to be the best in the league.

Fiedler did not play better than Danny did up until that last season when Danny had the shoulder injury, Fiedler held this team back because he couldn't attack the whole field and he was not consistent.

Marino in the JJ era had a young defense that was not as good as the one Fiedler had and he didn't have a Lamar Smith or a Ricky Williams.

For a couple years, Warner was one of the best in the league, injuries diminished his skills.

Brady is also one of the best in the league, he is a money player.

The point is, if you have an average quarterback the rest of your team and coaching better be excellent, if he a great QB there is more room for error on the rest of the team.

But ultimately, you need a complete team to be the best.

A voice of reason!!!!!!

Fresh!!! Ahhhhhhh!!!! I have been defending that stance for years!!!!