For discussion..QB, team, system.

[Zeke0123]

they are saying that you need a good supporting cast to win a SB. (which has nothing to do with the fins, except those who like to argue for mario as the best QB ever).

but that doesnt mean a good supporting cast will make your QB play better. as for the fins,: a rookie RB, formaly retired RB, very questionable O-Line (even if they are improved, they are still very questionable), 1 solid reciever, 1 steroid user WR, and 1 "im not getting any younger" WR, and 1 very good TE. all that is gunna make AJ (or Gus) so much better that the offense can take the fins to the SB?? i dont think so.

Hate to burst your bubble but you can bank on Moss making Collins better...is that an extreme? yes but its true.

 

[GRYPHONK]

I disagree with the guy that said that Brady isn't s franchise QB...

I'd take him and his unbeaten playoff record over any QB in the league right now...

You didn't read what I said.

I am sure there isn't a GM in the league who wouldn't atleast consider taking Brady if they had a choice.

He wasn't drafted a franchise QB
He doesn't put up franchise number stats.

What he does is win.

Has he turned into a franchise back? Probably.

As I stated before he is MR. Clutch.

What I am saying is you don't need a "Franchise QB"

Franchise QB'S in this league are the Daunte Culpeppers, Peyton Manning's, Donovan McNabb's, Michael Vicks. They were drafted to be the franchise QB. Yet only 1 of them has made it to a SB.

Jake Delhomme and Tom Brady were never supposed to be franchise QB'S nor do they put up the stats of a franchise QB. However, they win. PLAIN and simple.

That is simply what I mean by franchise QB.

For instance. Look at this years draft. Smith and Rodgers were your franchise QB'S. Some may disagree, but those teas drafted them to be their franchise QB. Now whos to sit here and say that Orton or Frye don't turn out ot be the better QB?

But in the end Smith and Rodgers were the franchise QB'S not Orton or Frye.

 

[MDFINFAN]

Its a combination of everything, you have to have a complete team to be the best in the league.

Fiedler did not play better than Danny did up until that last season when Danny had the shoulder injury, Fiedler held this team back because he couldn't attack the whole field and he was not consistent.

Marino in the JJ era had a young defense that was not as good as the one Fiedler had and he didn't have a Lamar Smith or a Ricky Williams.

For a couple years, Warner was one of the best in the league, injuries diminished his skills.

Brady is also one of the best in the league, he is a money player.

The point is, if you have an average quarterback the rest of your team and coaching better be excellent, if he a great QB there is more room for error on the rest of the team.

But ultimately, you need a complete team to be the best.

In all the QB's you use, there is one common factor..supporting cast. i.e, Brady and Warner both great OL's. They generally have plenty of time to make good decisions. They both had good receivers in a scheme that allowed them be at their best. Now the 3rd part of that equations are they had great OC minds, using surprising formations, schemes, and took advantage of the D's weaknesses. Using them doesn't help your argument, a great QB to me is Archie Manning, never had any of help of the 2 QB's you've talked about, but made things happen with his legs and arm. The guy was literally running every pass play for his life. Those QB's are very rare, and even that wasn't enough to get him to the SB. The more I debate and think about this, The more I think about this, I think the right scheme\system with the right personnel, who being quality personnel, with right coachings, using the best assets of a player, i.e., QB, can in fact make that player look better than he is. Success breed confidence, which Brady, Warner, Farve, Marino, Elway had and has. But if all those players are in situations where they couldn't do the things they did best, then they wouldn't be saluted like they are...i.e. if Steve Young had stay in tampa, he may not be in the Hall this year. Put him behind a good OL, with a good scheme, and good WR's and RB, his passing rating went through the roof..in tampa his passing rating was about 55%, he ended his career at about 98%. Coaching, scheme, supporting cast, can make a QB. If shula didn't surround Dan with the players, OL, scheme, Dan may not be in the Hall this year. Wanny tried too often to put a square peg in a round hole. Most unsuccessful coaches make this mistake. If you have a system..find out what made it work in the past and then go get players who meet those qualification. Too many coaches change systems, but not players and as a result fail to get the best out of those players.

 

[PYPER]

no his skills were fine for this league... maybe a bit inaqurate but if he was put in the right system that would complement him he would have excelled. But Wanddstadt (however you spell it) didnt know what he was doing and couln't complment fiedler.

There aren't many other systems where Fiedler could lead a team to back-to-back 11-5 records.

The Dolphins were the PERFECT fit for him. Great defense and running game. He didn't have to win games, just manage them.

The problem is that he wasn't the perfect fit for the Dolphins. The Dolphins needed a quarterback that could not only manage the game, but could win with his arm when necessary. It was inevitable that the defense and running game would eventually need help from the passing game. While Fiedler did show glimpses, he never showed enough.

In essence, he was a backup type QB being asked to start. Has anything really changed in Miami???

Fiedler is a great example for this argument: yes a mediocre qb can do ok with a good supporting cast (11-5), but there is a point that he won't be able to pass (playoff success)based on his liabilities. Dilfer had just enough talent (and a more dominant D) to get him over the hump. Jay went as far as his talent and toughness could take him; he wasn't going any further.

So the answer is you don't need a superstar, but you can't do it with just anybody, you need some level of appreciable talent.

BINGO!!! WE'VE GOT BINGO!!!

I disagree with the guy that said that Brady isn't s franchise QB...

I'd take him and his unbeaten playoff record over any QB in the league right now...

Who said THAT!!!!!

Them be FIGHTING words..............

 

[islandah]

In essence, he was a backup type QB being asked to start. Has anything really changed in Miami???

We're getting ready to find out!

 

[PYPER]

I thought this was an excellent article that addresses this topic perfectly, despite the fact that its about the Patriots. Check it out. What do you think???

http://msn.foxsports.com/fantasy/story/3763778

One of the articles from Scientific Football 2005 that I have received the most feedback on is the Patriots offensive overview.

A good portion of the feedback has come from people who say the article explains why the Patriots receivers aren't good fantasy players, so I thought I would run the article here and expound a bit on it:

"One of the reasons the Patriots offense is so damn good is that they have a clear idea of what it is they are trying to do not only with each player, but also with each unit. As I've pointed out many times in this book, there are many teams who have schemes that they try to force onto players who simply don't have the proper skill set to run it. The Patriots don't have to do this on offense in large part because of Tom Brady.

"Everyone likes to talk about Brady's leadership, his grace under pressure or his 'big-game ability.' That's all fine and dandy, but you know that I don't deal in that kind of mumbo-jumbo when it comes to player analysis.

"There are four specific skills that Tom Brady has that separate him from the rest of the league. He has no fear in the pocket, he finds the open receiver, he's accurate with the pass and he doesn't make bad decisions. I can't tell you how few NFL quarterbacks have all four of these skills, and no NFL quarterback has all four in the abundance Tom Brady does. The benefits these traits offer are sometimes so subtle that they require additional emphasis.

"I've broken down nearly every New England game from the past two seasons, and I have yet to find a time when Brady felt the pass rush. What I mean by this is that Brady always maintains his downfield vision, even when the pocket is collapsing. He also has the same ability Joe Montana had in making the first pass rusher miss.

"He has an instinctive feel for where the pocket is. He can also adjust to the pocket's movement without having to take his eyes off of looking downfield, and he seems to almost always move with the pocket at just the right time. This is something so many quarterbacks are taught but so few can do well, and Brady is simply the best at it.

"Brady also finds the open receiver. That sounds simple enough, but Brady's pocket presence actually makes this trait even more valuable. Because Brady is so good at buying time in the pocket, and because he has such an intense focus on how the play is developing, he is able to look at third and fourth receivers more often than any other quarterback.

"One of the ingenious things the Patriots coaches do to take advantage of this is to allow all of their receivers to run routes at all depths. Take a look at the Pats receivers and look at their pass depth distribution.

"Every single one of their receivers was used frequently on every depth level. It isn't that their receivers are so great at running routes, although they aren't bad. It's simply that the Patriots realize Brady will find the third and fourth receivers, and they don't want to limit what those receivers can do. It's not only that Brady does a great job of seeing the field. It's also that the Pats coaches have found a way to maximize the value of that skill set.

"Even though his bad decision percentages were high, Brady doesn't typically make poor decisions. He made 12 poor decisions in 19 games, but three of them came in the Monday night game at Miami. Those three plays also accounted for 11 out of the 24 weighted poor-decision points Brady had all year, so if you subtract that one poor game, you have nine poor decisions and 12 poor-decision points in 18 games. Now that's damn good.

"New England also has a very clear idea of what role they want their passing game to serve in their overall offensive philosophy. When the Patriots pass, they want to do one of two things. They either want to use the passing game to augment their running game, or they want to get vertical. The best way to illustrate this is by their percentage of short, medium and deep passes.

"The Patriots had the lowest percentage of short passes in the entire league, (so much for the dink-n-dunk name calling) and there's a clear reason for this. Their short passing game is simply a tool to accomplish three things: 1) To keep defenses from putting eight defenders in the box; 2) To make sure the defense backs don't stay too far off the line to cheat for the deeper passes; and 3) As a checkoff in the event the deep pass isn't open. The Pats also run a very safe short passing game. Brady only had one poor decision on a short pass all year, and that was in the Miami Monday night game.

"The Patriots also ranked second in medium pass percentage and fourth in deep pass percentage. I haven't looked at the combined percentages for these metrics for the entire league, but I'd have to think that this probably makes them either No. 1 or a close No. 2.

"The disparity of short and vertical passes clearly illustrates the Patriots passing game philosophy. When the Pats pass short, they are going to be certain they don't make mistakes on it. They are more willing to make mistakes on vertical passes.

"What I mean by this is that the Patriots seem to have a risk/reward ratio in mind when they pass the ball. They won't take any chances on short passes because the risk far outweighs the reward. They are much more willing to take chances on deeper passes because the reward is higher. Again, they have a very clear idea of what their passing philosophy is. You'd be amazed how many teams don't have this philosophical clarity.

"The clarity of pass depth use provides the answer as to how to stop them, and it was Brady himself who pointed this out to John Madden and Al Michaels before the Miami Monday night game. Brady said he always struggles against Miami because it does two things. They play tight man coverage with their cornerbacks, and they keep their safeties deep. Or to put it another way, they do some of the same things to New England's offense that New England's defense does to other teams. Their deep safeties take away the vertical passes and their tight man coverage takes away the shorter passes. The Pats ended up having to target the Miami linebackers, as the Dolphins coverage scheme put the linebackers in man coverage situations, but it still slowed New England's offense down tremendously.

"The Patriots coaches get a lot of credit for their ingenious playcalling and scheme management, but on offense Tom Brady should get just as much credit. The synergy of Brady's skills and the Patriots skill maximization philosophy has simply made each of them better than they should be. It truly is the subtlety of genius."

The fantasy implications from this are quite clear, with one caveat. The Patriots have shown that they won't direct their offense through one receiver, which makes any of their fantasy receivers risks, but there may be one exception to this in 2005: Deion Branch. Branch had the best completion percentage of any receiver last year and had exceptional performance metric stats at every pass depth level (If only he could stay healthy), so he may allow the Patriots coaches to bend their egalitarian passing rules.

KC Joyner, The Football Scientist, uses unique matchup-analysis scouting systems to provide him with in-depth player vs. player performance information. He can be reached at kc@thefootballscientist.com.

I'm rarely impressed by a piece of sports writing but this one did the trick. It's rare to find a sports article with the level of depth and insighfulness that this one contained. This guy needs to replace the CBS' village idiot, Pete Prisco.

 

[Megatron]

Dick Cheney could be a successful QB with Randy Moss to throw to.

 

[BlueFin]

In all the QB's you use, there is one common factor..supporting cast. i.e, Brady and Warner both great OL's. They generally have plenty of time to make good decisions. They both had good receivers in a scheme that allowed them be at their best. Now the 3rd part of that equations are they had great OC minds, using surprising formations, schemes, and took advantage of the D's weaknesses. Using them doesn't help your argument, a great QB to me is Archie Manning, never had any of help of the 2 QB's you've talked about, but made things happen with his legs and arm. The guy was literally running every pass play for his life. Those QB's are very rare, and even that wasn't enough to get him to the SB. The more I debate and think about this, The more I think about this, I think the right scheme\system with the right personnel, who being quality personnel, with right coachings, using the best assets of a player, i.e., QB, can in fact make that player look better than he is. Success breed confidence, which Brady, Warner, Farve, Marino, Elway had and has. But if all those players are in situations where they couldn't do the things they did best, then they wouldn't be saluted like they are...i.e. if Steve Young had stay in tampa, he may not be in the Hall this year. Put him behind a good OL, with a good scheme, and good WR's and RB, his passing rating went through the roof..in tampa his passing rating was about 55%, he ended his career at about 98%. Coaching, scheme, supporting cast, can make a QB. If shula didn't surround Dan with the players, OL, scheme, Dan may not be in the Hall this year. Wanny tried too often to put a square peg in a round hole. Most unsuccessful coaches make this mistake. If you have a system..find out what made it work in the past and then go get players who meet those qualification. Too many coaches change systems, but not players and as a result fail to get the best out of those players.

All of that is obvious and common sense, but that still doesn't make all quarterbacks equal.

Had AJ Feeley been drafted in 1983 to the Dolphins he would not have taken those teams to the Superbowl and he would not be going to the hall of fame right now.

Obviously the better the coaching, the scheme, the supporting the cast, the better the quarterbacks chances of success are, but a great quarterback can do more with less than an average QB can.

Drew Bledsoe was quarterbacking that same New England team Tom Brady won three Superbowls with, he couldn't get it done...the big change there in 2001 was when they changed quarterbacks.

 

[MDFINFAN]

I thought this was an excellent article that addresses this topic perfectly, despite the fact that its about the Patriots. Check it out. What do you think???

http://msn.foxsports.com/fantasy/story/3763778




I'm rarely impressed by a piece of sports writing but this one did the trick. It's rare to find a sports article with the level of depth and insighfulness that this one contained. This guy needs to replace the CBS' village idiot, Pete Prisco.

That's a good article..but it still deals with a team that has good supporting cast which feeds into my "that helps make a QB" thesis. Brady can stay focus down field because rarely does his OL allow him to get hit..even when he shifts with the OL, you can feel the pressure somewhat stay calm because of the trust. A good OL in this case actually allows a qb to develope these senses that are reported here. In the Monday night game against Miami, Brady felt what our Qb's left last year and it affected his play. That's to be expected, it's hard to do much when the D is in Your face. Actually, everytime Brady plays the phin his passing rating goes down. He's like 58% against the phins..so if every team played him like us, he wouldn't have been the center piece of that story. :goof:

 

[MDFINFAN]

All of that is obvious and common sense, but that still doesn't make all quarterbacks equal.

Had AJ Feeley been drafted in 1983 to the Dolphins he would not have taken those teams to the Superbowl and he would not be going to the hall of fame right now.

Obviously the better the coaching, the scheme, the supporting the cast, the better the quarterbacks chances of success are, but a great quarterback can do more with less than an average QB can.

Drew Bledsoe was quarterbacking that same New England team Tom Brady won three Superbowls with, he couldn't get it done...the big change there in 2001 was when they changed quarterbacks.

I really can't say what would have happen had feeley been in Dan's shoes when Dan took over, we had a good team, one that had just come off a sb. woody did pretty well before Dan, and the talent on the team really could help a rookie QB, mucsh like Pittsburg did for Rosthenburg last year. Drew did not QB the same team Brady had, that team added some key players that year and was establish in their schemes.

 

[BlueFin]

I really can't say what would have happen had feeley been in Dan's shoes when Dan took over, we had a good team, one that had just come off a sb. woody did pretty well before Dan, and the talent on the team really could help a rookie QB, mucsh like Pittsburg did for Rosthenburg last year. Drew did not QB the same team Brady had, that team added some key players that year and was establish in their schemes.

The defense ranked 19th out 28 teams in 1984, and there was no marquee back, hardly a great team around him. The O-line had a great center but was not a great overall unit by any means.

 

[BlueFin]

I really can't say what would have happen had feeley been in Dan's shoes when Dan took over, we had a good team, one that had just come off a sb. woody did pretty well before Dan, and the talent on the team really could help a rookie QB, mucsh like Pittsburg did for Rosthenburg last year. Drew did not QB the same team Brady had, that team added some key players that year and was establish in their schemes.

Bledsoe started out QB'ing that team in 2001, he wasn't getting it done.....it was the same team.

 

[PYPER]

That's a good article..but it still deals with a team that has good supporting cast which feeds into my "that helps make a QB" thesis. Brady can stay focus down field because rarely does his OL allow him to get hit..even when he shifts with the OL, you can feel the pressure somewhat stay calm because of the trust. A good OL in this case actually allows a qb to develope these senses that are reported here. In the Monday night game against Miami, Brady felt what our Qb's left last year and it affected his play. That's to be expected, it's hard to do much when the D is in Your face. Actually, everytime Brady plays the phin his passing rating goes down. He's like 58% against the phins..so if every team played him like us, he wouldn't have been the center piece of that story. :goof:

I thought the part about Belichick and company designing the offense around Brady's abilities to be dead on.

You can't force square pegs into round holes.

Any system must be able to adapt to be effective.
__________________________________________________________

As for pressuring Brady......Sure. The best way to beat ANY quarterback is to knock them around and herass them all game. That goes for Brady, that goes for Manning, that goes for Montana, Elway, and even Marino.

It's no coincidence that both the Patriots losses were games in which their Oline was abused. Brandon Gorin who started the year as the 4th string OT before being forced into the starting lineup vs Pittsburgh was absolutely destroyed by both the Steelers and Dolphins.

It'll be interesting to see how the Belichick/Saban battles elevate this rivalry. If Saban is as good as I expect him to be, you guys are going to love having a coach who not only knows what he's doing but always seems to do the right thing.

 

[MDFINFAN]

I thought the part about Belichick and company designing the offense around Brady's abilities to be dead on.

You can't force square pegs into round holes.

Any system must be able to adapt to be effective.


__________________________________________________________

As for pressuring Brady......Sure. The best way to beat ANY quarterback is to knock them around and herass them all game. That goes for Brady, that goes for Manning, that goes for Montana, Elway, and even Marino.

It's no coincidence that both the Patriots losses were games in which their Oline was abused. Brandon Gorin who started the year as the 4th string OT before being forced into the starting lineup vs Pittsburgh was absolutely destroyed by both the Steelers and Dolphins.

It'll be interesting to see how the Belichick/Saban battles elevate this rivalry. If Saban is as good as I expect him to be, you guys are going to love having a coach who not only knows what he's doing but always seems to do the right thing.

That' s the mark of good coaching..which is another part of my beliefs. You have to play to the strength of your personnel, and not make the personnel do something they're not wire for...i.e. as someone stated earlier, Jay throwing deep outs...not too smart or high percentage completion for miami, but for other team's D..it's great. I bet Jay does well in NY wco system with the shorter passes and occasional bomb, which he hit CC with in Gailey's days.

 

[MDFINFAN]

The defense ranked 19th out 28 teams in 1984, and there was no marquee back, hardly a great team around him. The O-line had a great center but was not a great overall unit by any means.

Again that unit had just come off a superbowl, they were good enough. The D at that time was never great, not until JJ entered the picture.