Hartline had more yards than Wallace, Bowe, or Jennings in 2012. | Page 7 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Hartline had more yards than Wallace, Bowe, or Jennings in 2012.

I don't think Welker even saw the field at WR much while Jay Fiedler was still here. I guess you mean Frerotte, Rosenfels, Culpepper, and Harrington. In any event, Welker would have at best been Davone Bess had he stayed in Miami and to think otherwise is a pipe dream. You can count the teams that he would be even remotely as productive as he is in New England on one hand-probably on two or three fingers. The Dolphins ain't one of them. A 2nd round pick for him at the time was more than fair value. If any team offered a 2nd for Bess today they would be idiots not to jump all over it.

Thank you from not making me type everything you just said about Welker. This what the people on here dont understand when they bring up the welker thing. He went to one of a hand full of teams in which he would have been this good. If he would have gone to oakland or arizona or the browns he might not even be in the league anymore. The same thing goes for Hartline. If he signs with the Pats or Broncos or saint then yeah he can be productive and we will look bad again, but if he signs almost anywhere else he will be a #3-4 WR and probably wont do much. But you people dont see that you just look at welker and say look how great he is but dont understand that its because of the system and the fact that he is playing with one of the best QBs ever.
I mean for gods sake that team and offense makes Danny Freaken woodhead look like an actual NFL running back.... That guy wouldnt make a roster on any other team in the league except the pats.
 
Hartline has value to the Dolphins. Philbin will play a big part in deciding that value. That being said, the paranoia about BB stealing our cast-offs and making them great players is weird. It happened ONCE. Strange.
 
Those who do not learn from history repeat it. Obviously, our fans did not learn from themWes Welker trade. After the Arizona game, every defense treated his as our number one receiver. He continued to put up good numbers while being the focus including against the Patriots last week. How in the world do you evaluate this information and come to the conclusion he is not a number 2 receiver?

Easy i watch the games and have noticed for the past 3 years he hasnt scored. He doesnt put up the numbers or makes the plays other REAL #2 Wrs make. Even with a legit #1 wr here (marshall) he put up subpar numbers.

2010
12
43
73
615
14.3
54
1
2011
16
35
67
549
15.7
41
1
He had 43 catches for 615 and 1 td in 2010 and 35 catch for 550 and 1 TD in 2011 both with marshall in the line up and him with single coverage.

in 2010 guys like Anthony armstrong the #2 in washington had 44 for 800 yards and 3 TDs. Manningham #2 with giants had 60 catches for 940 and 9 Tds. Derrick mason #2 in baltimore had 60 catches for 800+ and 7 tds. Lance moore 65+ for 750 and 8 Tds.

Thats what i see and thats what #2 WRs should be doing in this league. That was just a hand full of guys, i didnt even want to keep going cuz i will just continue to prove my point. The guy doesnt make enough plays simple and done.
 
Marshall has never had a number 2 wr, that has been productive. Not in denver, not in miami, and now not in chicago. You get it, the guy is a cancer, he demands the ball way to much and wont let the #2 wr get in any kind of groove. So for Hartline to put up the numbers he did alongside marshall, with a worthless QB, tells me that Hartline is Legit
 
dolphins need offensive playmarker bad, tired of them depending on defense to win?

2wr,2cb,1de,te, qb
 
Marshall has never had a number 2 wr, that has been productive. Not in denver, not in miami, and now not in chicago. You get it, the guy is a cancer, he demands the ball way to much and wont let the #2 wr get in any kind of groove. So for Hartline to put up the numbers he did alongside marshall, with a worthless QB, tells me that Hartline is Legit
True, but Legedu Naanee is not an adequate replacement for his talent level.
 
Why do so many Finheaven posters want to get rid of Brian Hartline?

He's not a superstar, but he's a solid #2, has developed chemistry with Tannehill, and we should definitely keep him.

I don't. I still want them to sign one of those other 3 while keeping Hartline.
 
I agree...Hartline is a solid WR on a developing team, that is already familiar with the offense and QB....that is worth a whole bunch, by itself.
 
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Easy i watch the games and have noticed for the past 3 years he hasnt scored. He doesnt put up the numbers or makes the plays other REAL #2 Wrs make. Even with a legit #1 wr here (marshall) he put up subpar numbers.

201012437361514.3541
201116356754915.7411
He had 43 catches for 615 and 1 td in 2010 and 35 catch for 550 and 1 TD in 2011 both with marshall in the line up and him with single coverage.

in 2010 guys like Anthony armstrong the #2 in washington had 44 for 800 yards and 3 TDs. Manningham #2 with giants had 60 catches for 940 and 9 Tds. Derrick mason #2 in baltimore had 60 catches for 800+ and 7 tds. Lance moore 65+ for 750 and 8 Tds.

Thats what i see and thats what #2 WRs should be doing in this league. That was just a hand full of guys, i didnt even want to keep going cuz i will just continue to prove my point. The guy doesnt make enough plays simple and done.

You are right but those teams are scoring a lot more through the air than we are, a lot more. Hartline's stats are from from great, but our team as a whole has done a pretty awful job at finding the end zone. Enter Mike Wallace...
 
Why do so many Finheaven posters want to get rid of Brian Hartline?

He's not a superstar, but he's a solid #2, has developed chemistry with Tannehill, and we should definitely keep him.

Yards don't win football games, touchdowns do.
 
You keep Hartline as your number 2 and get Jennings for the number 1. Then you draft a WR that will eventually replace Jennings.
 
Out of 241 wide receivers to be targeted 100+ times in an individual season from 2006 to 2012, only Torry Holt with the Jaguars in 2009 (his final year in the league at 33 years of age) posted a lower percentage of touchdowns relative to targets. That year he was targeted 103 times and had 51 catches for 722 yards and 0 touchdowns.

Out of 241 qualifying wide receivers over 7 seasons, Hartline's touchdown-to-targets percentage was 2nd lowest.

And the company he keeps at the low end is not flattering.

On the plus side you do have DeSean Jackson with a sub-2% number back in 2008 (his ROOKIE season), and you also have Steve Smith of Carolina appearing on the list at just under 2% in 2010 (the Jimmy Clausen year). And then you have Antonio Brown in 2011 with a percentage of about 1.6% (double Hartline's), which is the example most often cited.

But on the minus side, the other guys at sub-2% include Marty Booker (2007), Davone Bess (2009 & 2012), Jerricho Cotchery (2007), Donald Driver (2007), Greg Little (2011), Jabar Gaffney (2010), Mike Williams of Seattle (2010), Derrick Mason (2006) and Matt Jones (2008). Not very flattering company. Has-beens, never-weres, #3 receivers, etc.

From 2002 to 2005, ESPN does not record the targets information. However, using a cutoff of 60 catches yields much the same sample pool as 100 targets. Of the 126 qualifying receivers in that time period, only Laveranues Coles back in 2004 with the Washington Redskins (the Pat Ramsey year) had a smaller touchdown-to-catch percentage than Brian Hartline had in 2012. In 2002, both Easy Ed McCaffrey and Tim Brown had sub-3% touchdown-to-catch percentages, but both were clearly on the down slope of their careers. Ed McCaffrey was coming off a major injury that forced him to miss 15 games in 2001, had the season in question in 2002 (69 catches, 903 yards, only 2 touchdowns), and then he completely fell off the map in 2003 before retiring. Essentially, Ed McCaffrey's "Brian Hartline" season was his death rattle. Same with Tim Brown (2002: 81 catches, 930 yards, only 2 touchdowns), who fell off considerably in 2003 (52 catches, 567 yards, 2 touchdowns) and then fell off the map in 2004 before retiring.

In the interests of full disclosure, Eric Moulds did have a "Brian Hartline" in 2003, with 64 catches for 780 yards and only 1 touchdown in the year Drew Bledsoe played the entire year at QB and only threw 11 touchdowns. But in Moulds' case, he was able to come back nicely in 2004 & 2005 before he fell off the map in 2006 & 2007.

Here is what I take from this. Yes it is entirely possible for a pretty good player to have a season like this with a really awkward touchdown drought. But in the cases where those players were destined to turn things around (Laveranues Coles, Eric Moulds, Donald Driver, Derrick Mason, DeSean Jackson, Steve Smith and Antonio Brown) these were guys that were either too young (DeSean Jackson a rookie, Antonio Brown a second year player, first year starter) or they had previously demonstrated an ability to score touchdowns over the years. Many of them had dismal quarterback situations that I don't think you'd compare with Ryan Tannehill, unless you're one of those that believes Tannehill was awful in 2012.

Otherwise the guys that perform like this are basically flash in the pan types, career #3/#4 types that managed to have a flash-in-the-pan big year from a yardage/catch perspective, or they were on the down slope of their career and lacked the explosive abilities they once possessed. And even amongst those, arguably over a period of 11 years only 2 other players (Holt and Coles) had as uniquely bad a season from this perspective as Brian Hartline did.

Just think about this though.

We're talking about 367 qualifying wide receivers over an 11 season period. And yet, only 6 walked away with 0 or 1 touchdown, and only 2 had a lower percentage than Hartline over the period.

That means his 2012 season ranked 365th of 367 for touchdowns as a percentage of catches and targets.

And people want to pay him $6 million a year? Why? Based on yardage? Of these 367 qualifying receiver seasons, his ranks only #157th in total receiving yardage. Is that really that special? The 43rd percentile among receivers with a qualifying workload? That's good enough to warrant $6 million a year despite near-record low touchdown production?

It doesn't really speak well for Brian Hartline no matter how you slice it and that's why I think there's no way you pay him more than $4 million a year.
 
I don't really want to see Hartline sign elsewhere. I just don't think it will be noticeable if he does. So if someone is in to giving Hartline big money, then let him walk.
 
I should also mention that in 2012, Brian Hartline's avg yards/reception was also better than Wallace, Bowe, and Jennings.

I know you guys want two megatrons as our WRs, but that isn't happening.

Hartline won't break the bank, and he'll be a solid #2 for us. Keep the guy.

imo i think we could get jennings for around the same price that hartline is asking for , 5-6 mil a year is what hartline is asking and i think jennings will come for around that price i know 6-7 mil a year we could get jennings , but is he going to stay healthy ?
 
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