If Dennis Hickey was a better trader we could have had...

[EvilDylan]

lol @ equating saying he might not have been there at 27 to being a kindergarten level argument, yet predicting the future is a much more valid argument.

Get over it, the pick was made, the draft is over. Move along...

 

[jim1]

Playing the mental masturbatory "What If" game:

If Ireland had been either a lousier or better GM, Hickey wouldn't have either had to dig out of those holes he left, or even consider wheeling and dealing cuz he got first dibs on the OL he wanted and earlier picks in each round. Now compare that to Farmer, who knew for 2 weeks that Gordon was a goner, and that Burleson broke an arm yet could have had the quintessential game breakers in Watkins or Evans yet for a pick that he turned into Manziel, i(under commercial pressure by his soon to be incarcerated owner?), he took a very good CB instead of one of 3 others that were rated even higher on several mocks..and stilll didn't draft a WR at all. Can anyone say "whew.. we dodged a bullet!) So it's all relative.. cuz Hickey in this draft both addressed the team's most pressing and toxic need as well as then going "BPA" to snatch a potential game-changing wideout. :up:

The simple fact of the matter is that Dennis Hickey passed on a trade down and a 3rd round draft pick in maybe the deepest draft ever when his targeted player by almost every account on the planet would have been available in the #27 slot after the trade down. Good GMs make that trade. Weak, anal retentive GMs clench up. Hickey went the (extremely) safe route and it cost us, big time.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

lol @ equating saying he might not have been there at 27 to being a kindergarten level argument, yet predicting the future is a much more valid argument.

Get over it, the pick was made, the draft is over. Move along...

Wow, great argument, you must have put a lot of thought onto that one. If you're in kindergarten.

 

[EvilDylan]

The simple fact of the matter is that Dennis Hickey passed on a trade down and a 3rd round draft pick in maybe the deepest draft ever when his targeted player by almost every account on the planet would have been available in the #27 slot after the trade down. Good GMs make that trade. Weak, anal retentive GMs clench up. Hickey went the (extremely) safe route and it cost us, big time.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------



Wow, great argument, you must have put a lot of thought onto that one. If you're in kindergarten.

It's every bit as valid of an argument as claiming you know what the future holds.

 

[Rev Kev]

I also like James a lot and I think he starts day 1, but the value wasn't there... I guess if he comes out looking great then it won't matter in the long run, but still man... Could have had another 3rd rounder in there... A gem maybe.

Way to go out on a limb, you THINK?

If our #19th overall selection doesn't start day one, Philbin and Hicks are DONE! In fact bartring injury Hicks better have selected an 8 year starter

 

[BlueFin]

Way to go out on a limb, you THINK?

If our #19th overall selection doesn't start day one, Philbin and Hicks are DONE! In fact bartring injury Hicks better have selected an 8 year starter

I'll go a step further with it....James better become a Pro Bowl Right tackle or real near it...or this pick was a failure just based on the talent we passed on...based on Morgan Moses still being on the board at 50.

Again I like James....I just think we missed an obvious trade down...and it concerns me about the intelligence level of our organization.

History will also show Bitonio would have been there late first round as well....................

 

[awfulwaffle]

Geesus, we gave up how many sacks last year? We got a guy that can help this team. Can you guarantee that he would be available if we traded down?

 

[Vaark]

The simple fact of the matter is that Dennis Hickey passed on a trade down and a 3rd round draft pick in maybe the deepest draft ever when his targeted player by almost every account on the planet would have been available in the #27 slot after the trade down. Good GMs make that trade. Weak, anal retentive GMs clench up. Hickey went the (extremely) safe route and it cost us, big time.

Because some guy in a basement with an agenda writing for a retro-90s website declares that the pick was not worth it or could have been made later does not make it any more true than the reports sprinkled through these related threads that if Hickey didn't take his first "best of the rest" choice when he did to fill a critical need, then there were other teams queued up soon after to grab James.

Drawing a hypothetical analogy, if you were intent on marrying a woman you loved who had other options, would you have stalled making a commitment risking losing her just because there were sexier women who meant less to you whom you think you could have had? I think not!

Now I understand that there are followers of the team who are looking for Hickey to fail in order for the house of fins cards to come tumbling down as a good thing. I for one was not pleased with him but said from the start that nothing would delight me moreso than to be proven wrong. IMO, I'm not the only fan who hopes for the best to take that approach. Say what you will but Hickey has done a better job with what he had to work with than Farmer who I think crapped the bed and than seasoned GMs like Jerry Jones traditionally have done and de-facto GMs like Belicheat has done more often than not including this year. Room for improvement, certainly, but IMO it was a good hybrid "need and BPA" first draft accounting of himself. :up:

 

[nyashfan]

I understand what you are saying. Of course an extra 3rd would've been great. I disagree with you on two points. First, Hickey did not have 1st round grades on Moses, Bitinio, etc. Therefore, to say that trading back is riskless is false. Second, even if Hickey could see that no team from #20 - #27 had a need at RT, it does NOT preclude another team trading up into that range to draft James. That is the HIDDEN RISK that is not being acknowledged.

Perhaps the risk of losing James was less than 50%; the problem is that Ireland left Hickey in a situation in which a 10% - 20% risk of losing James could not be undertaken.

Conviction is one thing, judging relative value is another. Hickey got it half right, the simple answer is that he should have taken the extra 3rd, the odds were excellent that he still would have gotten his man. A simple, simple trade down that could have gotten us Trai Turner or Martavis Bryant. We'll see how those two players turn out in a few years.

 

[jim1]

It's every bit as valid of an argument as claiming you know what the future holds.

That's not only a misrepresentation of the truth, it's an abuse of common sense as well. Of course no one knows for sure what the future holds, but my concern after not taking the 3rd in a trade down was it would costing us Trai Turner or Martavis Bryant. My concern after the trade up for Billly Turner and especially after the 3rd round ended, was whether or not it would cost us Martavis Bryant, especially and most annoyingly if Bryant was taken between the traded #116 pick and our kept 4th rd pick at #125. And he was.

If I could have Billy Turner, especially if I'm planning to convert him from OT to OG or have Both OG Trai Turner, a true, experienced Guard who imo is on of the very best and most promising OGs in the draft, AND Martavis Bryant, one of the most talented and physically gifted WRs in the draft- I'm taking Trai Turner and Martavis Bryant every time.

edit: The most aggravating part of it was watching Bryant as he slid into the 4th round, I expected him before the draft to be gone in rds 2-3. When he wasn't taken in the 3rd rd and we had traded away #116 in the 4th rd and kept #125, and Bryant went #118, that was the worst of it. So to be clear, Bryant was on my mind as a very viable option at #116 as the 3rd round progressed and ended with him still on the board. He should have been had with an extra 3rd form a #19 trade down, and surprisingly would have been available with the #116 pick which imo we should have kept in the first place.

 

[utahphinsfan]

What if he lost James to another team? I would be killing him for it today. Plus, he was right that a late one/early two run on linemen occurred.

Don't feel bad (?) in alternate realities, I'm sure all the Madden playing GM wannabees got their way.

 

[Rev Kev]

Playing the mental masturbatory "What If" game:

If Ireland had been either a lousier or better GM, Hickey wouldn't have either had to dig out of those holes he left, or even consider wheeling and dealing cuz he got first dibs on the OL he wanted and earlier picks in each round. Now compare that to Farmer, who knew for 2 weeks that Gordon was a goner, and that Burleson broke an arm yet could have had the quintessential game breakers in Watkins or Evans yet for a pick that he turned into Manziel, i(under commercial pressure by his soon to be incarcerated owner?), he took a very good CB instead of one of 3 others that were rated even higher on several mocks..and stilll didn't draft a WR at all. Can anyone say "whew.. we dodged a bullet!) So it's all relative.. cuz Hickey in this draft both addressed the team's most pressing and toxic need as well as then going "BPA" to snatch a potential game-changing wideout. :up:

It never ceases to amaze me, what I read on this site, like a mosquito drawn to the light that will incinerate me, like gawking at a car crash I hit the bumper of the vehicle in front, why do i keep coming? For posts like this thanks for starightening my bumper Vk.


Hickey clearly assumes he is back for another year based on his confidemnce in Tanney by providing these tweaks to the OLine (James) /TE (Lynch) and WR (Landry) cores

James starts

Landry is gonna to be that reliable weapon that Wallace isn't -> Landry can read the D and make the play, he is looking for extra YAC, Wallace can run but can't seem to read the Defense -> hopefully Wallace doesn't pout that he is finding himself lower down "must get the ball" to chart

Because Clay is gonna get his touches, so is Hartline and I believe so will Landry

Lynch is a great in-line blocker he is gonna move people out of the way both for the pass and rush game and push Sims to boot

 

[DuderinoN703]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpkWoyXjgE4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdqS2RO0rNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I38XTMC66Xo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7qVSSyfXDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpU9ZUCzwqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYx2TIIilrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vASGMWhYFfc


and had them both easily.

- Trade down from #19 and then take Ja'wuan James, take the extra third. That's Trai Turner right there.

- Stay put at #81 and take Billy Turner there, don't trade the 116th pick to move up to #67. Trai Turner is a very talented, very athletic pure OG who has plenty of experience at OG, would have loved to have him on board. Billy Turner? Good to have him aboard. Billy Turner and Trai Turner? Freaking awesome additions to a depleted OG unit. And between the two Turners I would have chosen Trai, if for no other reason that we already got our Guards in Albert and James, and while Billy Turner is projected to Guard, Trai Turner is a pure Guard, and a darned good one at that. Just an excellent prospect, one of my favorites of the draft.

- That #116 pick would have gotten us WR Martavis Bryant, a great talent and another deep threat for the WR unit. There at our traded #116 pick, gone by our #125 pick. Hickey, if you absolutely had to trade a 4th to secure Billy Turner, which I wouldn't have done in the first place, couldn't you have AT LEAST traded the #125 pick, not #116. Lousy trading.

For all the wheeling and dealing, down in the 2nd rd and trading up in the 3rd, we lost 9 crucial spots in the fourth round and gained a 5th rd pick. Yipee. At first glance I'm ok with this draft, nothing special but it looks to have filled needs, but in my opinion Hickey is not much of a wheeler and dealer or trader of picks. Poor showing in that regard, and that left me deflated. Trai Turner and Martavis Bryant are outstanding prospects that could have easily been Miami Dolphins if Hickey played his hand better, his trading skills didn't strike me as very special at all.

No way to prove anything you just said

 

[LikeUntoGod]

Dude, get a grip. The chances were excellent, by all accounts, that James would have been there at #27 in a trade down. The "yes, but maybe someone would have taken James" arguments are on pretty much a kindergarten level- there's almost always risk in a trade down, that's a given. The questions are the chances of your guy still being there and the value of the ocmpenation offered fro you to slide down. The odds are highly in favor off Ja'Wuan James still being availble at #27, and even he wasn't there were other good OL available. The extent to which some people jumped on the James band wagon AFTER the report tha Miami considered him a 1st rd pick makes me laugh aloud. The opportunity cost of not trading down and pocketing the extra 3rd rd pick, was, among others. Trai Turner or Martavis Bryant, take you pick. And that's the bottom line.

So in your opinion, what where the "chances" that if we had traded back, we would have still gotten James? 31%? 42%? 98%? And since it often takes two to trade. Which teams would we have traded with? Who do you know wanted to move to our spot?

 

[DuderinoN703]

I agree about the non-trade in the 1st and the trade up for 116th pick.. Those were horrible moves...

Could have had:

27 - Ja'Wuan James
63 - Jarvis Landry
81 - Billy Turner
91 - Trai Turner
116 - Ka'Deem Carey
125 - Walt Aikens


smfh :crazy:

They could have had players you wanted? Interesting.

 

[EvilDylan]

That's not only a misrepresentation of the truth, it's an abuse of common senes as well. Of course no one knows for sure what the future holds, but my after not taking the 3rd in a trade down were whether or not it would cost us Trai Turner or Martavis Bryant. My concern after the trade up for Billly Turner and especially after the 3rd round ended, was whether or not it would cost us Martavis Bryant,especially and most annyoingly if Bryant was taken between the traded #116 pick and our kept 4th rd pick at #125. And he was.

If I could have Billy Turner, especially if I'm planning to convert him from OT to OG or have Both OG Trai Turner, a true, experienced Guard who imo is on of the very best and most promising OGs in the draft, AND Martavis Bryant, one of the most talented and physically gifted WRs in the draft- I'm taking Trai Turner and Martavis Bryant every time.

That's all well and good, IF you could get those picks.

I take issue with you saying over and over that it is a virtual lock that James would have been there had we taken the trade. You've said multiple times that the odds were excellent that he would have been there. THAT is the only misrepresentation of the truth because you truly have no idea where he would have gone had miami not picked him at 19. You can say odds were in our favor til you are blue in the face, that does not make it true. It's a guess, and that's all it will ever be.