If Fletcher and Greenwood get beat out... | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

If Fletcher and Greenwood get beat out...

Originally posted by DannyNoonan
Ogunleye was a college FA signee by Wanny, so the defense is 5/5/1 for the starting 11.
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AGAIN!! I only looked at the first five rounds. Rounds 6, 7, and FA's are crap shoots. They cost almost nothing(6's and 7's), or COMPLETELY nothing(FA's), so I don't see how they count. Those are lottery picks, in that you might get lucky, but if not, you haven't lost ANYTHING.
 
Jesus...for those of you who KEEP trying to make this a rant against WannSpiel PLEASE stop!!! How many freaking times can I STRESS that I like the job the FO has done with this team? If I say it 6 more times, will that be enough? Since I think I'm on number 5 now, I'll say it ONCE again...I LIKE WHAT WANN/SPIEL HAVE DONE WITH THE TEAM!!! I think they've done a better job over the last three years than any other FO. I think that the trades for picks were GREAT, when we traded for FA's. Does that satisfy? Is everyones hackles settled back down? The ONLY point of this post...ONLY point was a rating of the ability of WannSpiel to judge COLLEGE talent, and it's ability to contribute to the team. Trading picks for Ricky was great, but even if he had only done what he did in New Orleans, it still would have been worthwhile, and has no bearing on this discussion. Likewise, players taken undrafted are "freebies". Every team gets them, because every team signs 20-25 of them over the course of three years, so they all get someone who sticks out of that group. My thanks for those who actually discussed the points of this discussion, and refrained from trying to turn this into an attack on WannSpiel. For those who didn't, paranoia is a neurosis...seek therapy.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Jesus...for those of you who KEEP trying to make this a rant against WannSpiel PLEASE stop!!! How many freaking times can I STRESS that I like the job the FO has done with this team? If I say it 6 more times, will that be enough? Since I think I'm on number 5 now, I'll say it ONCE again...I LIKE WHAT WANN/SPIEL HAVE DONE WITH THE TEAM!!! I think they've done a better job over the last three years than any other FO. I think that the trades for picks were GREAT, when we traded for FA's. Does that satisfy? Is everyones hackles settled back down? The ONLY point of this post...ONLY point was a rating of the ability of WannSpiel to judge COLLEGE talent, and it's ability to contribute to the team. Trading picks for Ricky was great, but even if he had only done what he did in New Orleans, it still would have been worthwhile, and has no bearing on this discussion. Likewise, players taken undrafted are "freebies". Every team gets them, because every team signs 20-25 of them over the course of three years, so they all get someone who sticks out of that group. My thanks for those who actually discussed the points of this discussion, and refrained from trying to turn this into an attack on WannSpiel. For those who didn't, paranoia is a neurosis...seek therapy.
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I'm confused. You say you are happy with them, but you are questioning their drafting. That seems to be a bit of a conflict in thinking to me.

Oliver...
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227



AGAIN!! I only looked at the first five rounds. Rounds 6, 7, and FA's are crap shoots. They cost almost nothing(6's and 7's), or COMPLETELY nothing(FA's), so I don't see how they count. Those are lottery picks, in that you might get lucky, but if not, you haven't lost ANYTHING.
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Again, this is one of the areas where we disagree, and one area where your logic does not hold up. Dividing at the end of the 5th round of the draft is rather arbitrary...why not at the end of the 6th, or 4th? Why not just the first day of drafts? Why not the entire draft but no college FAs? The truth is that the entire NFL draft is a crap shoot, it's just that the odds of locating starting-level talent that no other team has selected get longer as the draft progresses. It is a huge, sliding scale, and to place an arbitrary line at pick #173 (end of Round 5 this year) seems artificial. If you want to discuss our success at evaluating college talent, then talk about the entire process. To say that you will only look at how we have done with only the first 173 picks is incomplete, and only weakens your argument. If you want to support your conclusions with empirical data, you must be open to including all empirical data, not just the part that you like, that supports your conclusions, or is easiest to attain.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227



AGAIN!! I only looked at the first five rounds. Rounds 6, 7, and FA's are crap shoots. They cost almost nothing(6's and 7's), or COMPLETELY nothing(FA's), so I don't see how they count. Those are lottery picks, in that you might get lucky, but if not, you haven't lost ANYTHING.
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I totally disagree with this..and here's why,

Ryan Leaf, Audrey Denson, Cabe McNlown, bu QB for Cin..AKlim or something like that..Yatil Green, Shula from Tenn at the skins, asked Norv about that one, and I can go on and on about 1st Rd burst..the draft is very much a crap shoot..that's why people call players in the 4th - 7th round a jewel when they make it..They didn't cost the team as much money, but produced like a 1st rounder..
 
Originally posted by DannyNoonan



Again, this is one of the areas where we disagree, and one area where your logic does not hold up. Dividing at the end of the 5th round of the draft is rather arbitrary...why not at the end of the 6th, or 4th? Why not just the first day of drafts? Why not the entire draft but no college FAs? The truth is that the entire NFL draft is a crap shoot, it's just that the odds of locating starting-level talent that no other team has selected get longer as the draft progresses. It is a huge, sliding scale, and to place an arbitrary line at pick #173 (end of Round 5 this year) seems artificial. If you want to discuss our success at evaluating college talent, then talk about the entire process. To say that you will only look at how we have done with only the first 173 picks is incomplete, and only weakens your argument. If you want to support your conclusions with empirical data, you must be open to including all empirical data, not just the part that you like, that supports your conclusions, or is easiest to attain.
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If you wanted to include the entire 7 rounds, I'd have no real problem with that. The rsk/reward is minimal in my opinion once you get past the 5th round, but I'd be willing to include all 7 rounds. I'd still exclude undrafted FA's however since you eliminate ALL risk with those players. Coach's can bring in as many as they like, and as such, there's little need to make a judgement call. They can bring in anybody with any kind of potential. In the actual draft rounds however, you have to make A choice. It's about judgement, and I don't see that the undrafted players are a test of judgement.
 
Originally posted by Oliver


I'm confused. You say you are happy with them, but you are questioning their drafting. That seems to be a bit of a conflict in thinking to me.

Oliver...
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No...that's called "I'm happy overall, but there's an area that needs improving". This isn't all or nothing Oliver. I support George Bush, but I don't think a 750 million tax cut would have been a good idea. I love the Defense, but they needed improvement at Safety and LB. I like Jay Fiedler, but I don't think that he has a good deep ball. It IS possible to support something, and still want to improve on it.
 
I hope things pan out with Moore. It would be nice to see him unseat Greenwood. But even if he does not they have to resign Greenwood. He is solid in my book just needs time to blow up. So having both of these YOUNG OLB's will be great for a team that has an OLB that might play 2-3 more seasons. I think that Greenwood and Moore should be able to make strides this season. They both will learn from two of the best LB's at their positions. This should help Moore out a lot he does play all the LB positions.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227



If you wanted to include the entire 7 rounds, I'd have no real problem with that. The rsk/reward is minimal in my opinion once you get past the 5th round, but I'd be willing to include all 7 rounds. I'd still exclude undrafted FA's however since you eliminate ALL risk with those players. Coach's can bring in as many as they like, and as such, there's little need to make a judgement call. They can bring in anybody with any kind of potential. In the actual draft rounds however, you have to make A choice. It's about judgement, and I don't see that the undrafted players are a test of judgement.
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I think there are limits on the signing of college FAs. 1) Other teams are trying to sign some of the same players, so we cannot sign all of them. In fact, the FAs themselves can choose not to sign with us if another team looks more attractive to them for whatever reason (like a greater chance to make the team). 2) We cannot sign an unlimited number at any one position because of the limited number of snaps at a practice (e.g. we cannot sign 12 QBs since they wouldn't have enough opportunities to throw at the mini-camps). 3) Many of the college FAs get signing bonuses larger than 7th round picks enjoy (this changed a bit this year, and was the topic of an article by John Clayton on espn.com...it has been true in the past few years, though). All of these bonuses count against the salary cap, so there is a financial limit as well.

You are correct that many teams sign more than a few college FAs each year and that the overall cost is minimal. However, there are limits. And since there are limits, there is some judgement and risk involved. We have to know who to pursue to make our team better (a choice we make in the talent evaluation process), and we risk letting another team swoop in and sign someone we covet before we have the chance to sign him. We also risk losing the siging bonus and the practice time if the player does not work out. These risks pale in comparison to the huge contracts that high round picks sign, but they are risks, nonetheless. And since they are judgement calls with risks attached that are part of the college talent evaluation process, they need to be included in your discussion of the job front office does in this arena.
 
The problem I am having is that you are saying the WanSpiel need to improve on their college recruiting, yet you have evidence at all supporting that they have done a bad job. Plus you discount the fact that it is harder for a draft pick to make a team that returns most of their starters, who aren't that bad to begin with.

Also you don't have any comparisons. Miami could be best in the league for all we know. No one has compiled any data whatsoever.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227


No...that's called "I'm happy overall, but there's an area that needs improving". This isn't all or nothing Oliver. I support George Bush, but I don't think a 750 million tax cut would have been a good idea. I love the Defense, but they needed improvement at Safety and LB. I like Jay Fiedler, but I don't think that he has a good deep ball. It IS possible to support something, and still want to improve on it.
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How come you get to answer all the easy ones?
;)
 
Originally posted by Dol-Fan Dupree
The problem I am having is that you are saying the WanSpiel need to improve on their college recruiting, yet you have evidence at all supporting that they have done a bad job. Plus you discount the fact that it is harder for a draft pick to make a team that returns most of their starters, who aren't that bad to begin with.

Also you don't have any comparisons. Miami could be best in the league for all we know. No one has compiled any data whatsoever.
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As I said before, this is my perception. I said that I haven't pulled the stats yet, and I even said that compared to the previous three years, Wann/Spiel had done about as well as Jimmy did. I've said that I may be wrong, and would await a review of the final stats before making a concrete decision on the matter. What I've seen to this point however leads me to believe that we could improve in this area. At best, it seems that we've been no better than "average" as compared to the rest of the league, and average will get you just about as far as we've gotten over the last 31 years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Wayne H to invest the money to make us as dominant in the draft as we've been in Free Agency. There's no salary cap on the number/quality of scouts after all, and since we're always in the top 10 in marketing revinue, Wayne should have the cash.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227



As I said before, this is my perception. I said that I haven't pulled the stats yet, and I even said that compared to the previous three years, Wann/Spiel had done about as well as Jimmy did. I've said that I may be wrong, and would await a review of the final stats before making a concrete decision on the matter. What I've seen to this point however leads me to believe that we could improve in this area. At best, it seems that we've been no better than "average" as compared to the rest of the league, and average will get you just about as far as we've gotten over the last 31 years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Wayne H to invest the money to make us as dominant in the draft as we've been in Free Agency. There's no salary cap on the number/quality of scouts after all, and since we're always in the top 10 in marketing revinue, Wayne should have the cash.
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I agree with this...we could do better in the draft and maybe we should think about how we evaluate college talent. Increasing the size of our scouting staff is one possibility. I'm sure there are other things we could do, too.
 
Don't we already have one of the largest college scouting staffs in the NFL?
 
Originally posted by DannyNoonan



I think there are limits on the signing of college FAs. 1) Other teams are trying to sign some of the same players, so we cannot sign all of them. In fact, the FAs themselves can choose not to sign with us if another team looks more attractive to them for whatever reason (like a greater chance to make the team). 2) We cannot sign an unlimited number at any one position because of the limited number of snaps at a practice (e.g. we cannot sign 12 QBs since they wouldn't have enough opportunities to throw at the mini-camps). 3) Many of the college FAs get signing bonuses larger than 7th round picks enjoy (this changed a bit this year, and was the topic of an article by John Clayton on espn.com...it has been true in the past few years, though). All of these bonuses count against the salary cap, so there is a financial limit as well.

You are correct that many teams sign more than a few college FAs each year and that the overall cost is minimal. However, there are limits. And since there are limits, there is some judgement and risk involved. We have to know who to pursue to make our team better (a choice we make in the talent evaluation process), and we risk letting another team swoop in and sign someone we covet before we have the chance to sign him. We also risk losing the siging bonus and the practice time if the player does not work out. These risks pale in comparison to the huge contracts that high round picks sign, but they are risks, nonetheless. And since they are judgement calls with risks attached that are part of the college talent evaluation process, they need to be included in your discussion of the job front office does in this arena.
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I credit them for finding Wally, but I still don't see that as having the same skill level as picking a Chris Chambers. There are only so many players that a team gets to look at, and a big part of that is luck. I doubt Wally was heavily scouted by more than a few teams due to his injuries. That means that the number of teams who were competing for him is proportionatly smaller. Higher profile prospects are going to get more interest, but by the time you get to the undrafteds, the vast majority of teams have never seen one minute of film on any given player. I just think that when you compare the risks of drafting a player, ESPECIALLY in the first 5 rounds to picking up an undrafted player, the comparison is too remote to even worth mentioning. Think about this, if Wally had NOT panned out, would anybody berate WannSpeil for bringing him in? If not, than how can you heap that much praise on them for getting lucky?
 
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