TGall13 said:
I think he meant Chris Chambers, Our first round pick (as in whichever reciever we nab in THIS year's first round), and Booker would be an explosive trio, not that Chambers was our first round pick.
I'm now on the "take a WR in the 1st" bandwagon
- Thread starter Tommatt
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I think he meant Chris Chambers, Our first round pick (as in whichever reciever we nab in THIS year's first round), and Booker would be an explosive trio, not that Chambers was our first round pick.
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I'll say it again. CAMPBELL SUCKS.
I don't know why everyone is infatuated with Campbell and Frye. Two guys that have done nothing in college.
I don't know why everyone is infatuated with Campbell and Frye. Two guys that have done nothing in college.
First off, Jbond, and 4u2nv, great discussion you guys got going on there. JBOND sees it the way i see it, but 4u2nv, you bring up some excellent points. I've been lurking at these boards for a long time reading, and thats one of the best discussions I've seen about this. Too bad its not in a sports bar around a pitcher of beer :)
Now, frye, I havn't made an assesment of as of yet. Been finding what I can to read about him, to form an opinion.
Heres cambell, the guy is extremely talented. He has the talent of a starter. This year? I dunno. But he has it. He has great stats. Don't compare them to other QB's from college, just look at them. Remember, he was in a run oriented offense. Why is he not a #1 round pick? Cause he had 2, yes, TWO!!!!!, #1 picks at RB. It was obviously a run oriented offense. But he managed the team, managed the offense, and when it came down to it, got the job done. He has great skills for a qb, has all that there is to be had in forms of talent for a qb, and I feel is a steal in round 2. If he went in the first round, I wouldn't be suprised, as the talent is there, just not the stats due to the offense he was in.
And remember, his scores were low on the test, but he went through alot of different offensive schemes in his college career, and figured out them all.
Hopefully this thread dosn't die, as jbond and 4u2nv made some great comments for the guys waking up tommorow to read and comment on.
Cheapshotz said:
Now, frye, I havn't made an assesment of as of yet. Been finding what I can to read about him, to form an opinion.
Heres cambell, the guy is extremely talented. He has the talent of a starter. This year? I dunno. But he has it. He has great stats. Don't compare them to other QB's from college, just look at them. Remember, he was in a run oriented offense. Why is he not a #1 round pick? Cause he had 2, yes, TWO!!!!!, #1 picks at RB. It was obviously a run oriented offense. But he managed the team, managed the offense, and when it came down to it, got the job done. He has great skills for a qb, has all that there is to be had in forms of talent for a qb, and I feel is a steal in round 2. If he went in the first round, I wouldn't be suprised, as the talent is there, just not the stats due to the offense he was in.
And remember, his scores were low on the test, but he went through alot of different offensive schemes in his college career, and figured out them all.
Hopefully this thread dosn't die, as jbond and 4u2nv made some great comments for the guys waking up tommorow to read and comment on.
4U2NV said:
Great discussion between BOTH of you. My take is I think we DO need another WR, but NOT in round 1. The point you make about a runner not being able to run without a passing threat IS valid, however, what you think about is this: We ALL know we ARE taking a RB this draft, there is not one single question about it in anyone's mind, the thing is nobody knows for sure WHEN we will take a RB. My biggest question to challenge your point of needing a passing game to have a successful rushing attack is: "would you rather have Benson, Brown, or Williams be the one attempting to run behind an inadequate passing attack, or a 3rd round pick?" Let's face it, we don't know for sure if we are going to have a second round pick, so as it stands now, and could stand on draft day, our first chance to take a RB would be round three. Do you think a round three back will be able to do as well or better than one of the "big 3" guys if the passing attack fails to open up the rush? The point you make is excellent jbond, but I do not think someone we take in round three, or even round two if we get one, will be able to do any better, or even as well as, Benson, Brown, or Williams. I think best case scenerio would be one of those three in round 1 and a WR in the next round we have a pick in. We all know 2nd round recievers are capable (see Chambers and Anquan Bouldin in Arizona) of making a difference, and the talent is deep enough that even a 3rd rounder (since we have like the 3rd or 4th pick in that round) has that chance. Also, as far as our RB pick goes, this just pushes my case for Benson even more. Jbond brings up how we need a guy like Ricky, well, BENSON's favorite player, hero, and the guy he models his game after (on the field, not off) IS Ricky, and he either broke, tied, or came withing inches of breaking Ricky's records at Texas, so he is about as close to the real thing as you can possibly get (he even has the DREADS like him, or HAD, 'til he cut em off because people were saying he was so much like Ricky he'll prolly "retire" for weed too). He might even, at this point, be BETTER than the real thing, because even if Ricky comes back he isn't garunteed to be THE Ricky Williams, he has been in the mountains smoking a constant supply of weed for a year, that CAN'T be good for his mind or body, and I doubt he was keeping in football shape that whole time, since he DID say he never wanted to play again. Anyway, great discussion, Jbond has great points but I agree MORE with 4U2NV.
4U2NV
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Campbell may not have the sexy stats like some of the other QB prospects in this draft but he's got great size and probably has the biggest upside of any of the QB prospects as it stands right now. He seems like the perfect type of QB that Saban would love to groom for a year or two. He improved a lot this past year and could either boom or bust but I think there's not really much room for either Rodgers or Smith to improve. Under the right coaching Campbell could end up being a steal. It would still be a risky pick but it's less risky taking Campbell in the 2nd than taking Rodgers or Smith in the first if you ask me.
Agent51 said:
Very good points you made there. But heres a question. at #2, all the RB's are going to be there, all the WR's are going to be there, all thats going to be missing from the draft is one QB. (or, who the hell knows with this draft and all the smoke screen, maybe SF will draft an OL lol )Who is honestly the BPA?
Lets say a team thats defense was good, their qb is good, rb is good, wr is good, just won the superbowl, had #1 pick in the draft. Who would they pick? The BPA. Who is the best player available in this draft.
I think one of the top two recievers, honestly, with the RB's right behind them.
THe other thing is, while I would love to see a RB drafted high, I mean, immediate impact, no matter what happens with our qb situation, our wr situation, would produce. Would make us win games, would make people watch, would make us compettitive.... the more I read about our offense, the less I think we need a RB in the first round. We're going to be running 3 and 4 WR sets (4 wr sets, think of it, chambers, williams, booker, and MicMichals spread out, I love that idea!!! People seem to forget about mcmichaels when talking about this draft and what we need, talking about playmakers we have. I get him every year in my fantasy draft) so we really need another reciever. And like I've said in other posts, no matter how much I love chambers, which I do, I'm not sold on him being a #1 reciever in the NFL.
all I can say is thanks....and wow... :) In all honesty...I'd be happy with either WR, Smith or one of the top 3 RBs. I just have my preference (in order listed) as to what is the BPA and will have the longest shelf-life / productivity for our team (avg. player lasts 4 years in the NFL, above avg. WR has a longer life then an above avg. RB and at this point....Braylon is a surer pick then Smith) although I understand the needs and desires of various viewpoints.
4U2NV
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Tommatt said:
In that scenario I would honestly say that if there was a team that had everything, great defence, great offence, no holes, no weak points...nothing of the like...if they were to take the one single player who is deemed the best in this year's draft I honestly would say that one player is Braylon Edwards.
The guy would look damn good in our uniform and would bring back glorious memories of the Duper/Clayton days and I love him as a player, love his game, love his attitude, work ethic...everything. I just honestly don't think he's the best fit for our team at this point.
d@mn....just about making my case for me :) lol If Saban want's BPA to make the franchise the best it can be in the long-term.....Braylon's the man.
finsnchips
2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!
I have been driving the ol' bandwagon for Mike Williams and have not previously thought it realistic that we select him because of the QB/RB situation.
However, my opinions will greatly change if we move down to #5, here I think MW#1 is a legit option along with Caddie and Ronnie. If we move down we'll be picking up a 2nd round pick that can be used on a guy like Fason.
I dunno how this draft is going to play out, but it'd be awesome if we could get Mike Williams out on the field alongside Chambers, Booker and McMichael.
However, my opinions will greatly change if we move down to #5, here I think MW#1 is a legit option along with Caddie and Ronnie. If we move down we'll be picking up a 2nd round pick that can be used on a guy like Fason.
I dunno how this draft is going to play out, but it'd be awesome if we could get Mike Williams out on the field alongside Chambers, Booker and McMichael.
4U2NV said:
Good point. Edwards, williams, two great recievers, great playmakers, great draft choices for anyone. And I agree edwards dosn't fit our playstyle, cause we have chambers. I believe their the same type of reciever. And I trully believe that edwards and williams are the best players available. And if you had everything, youd take one of those two.
But I feel, that williams fits our new playstyle, of spread it out, and throw the ball more, instead of run it, ball controll, let our defense win the game. Our defense is still going to win games, but with our new playstile another WR will fit us more. I don't know if Edwards or WIlliams will be #1, or #2, but with booker as a #3, we're damn good set.
And honestly, as long as we don't draft a QB in the first round, I'll be happy. I trust saban, as said, for 3 years.
finsnchips said:
Thats my biggest poiont, I think we'll end up at #5. Or right around there, we're trading down to that region, and both the WR's will be available. Chamber, Williams, Booker, Michmichael, any QB, hell bring fielder back, can throw to that combination.
My only concern with Williams as a pure long-term WR prospect is his weight. Many view him as going to TE. He's had problems keeping his weight down (instead of problems gaining) and that's only going to be harder to do as his metabolism slows down. He may start off at WR but I think you'll see him being used as a TE in the future. For that...we already have McMichael. Braylon's about an inch and a half shorter but a 1/10 of a second faster in the 40. His 1 1/2 inch difference in size won't be much of an issue considering the size of the avg. CB however at 5-11.
4U2NV
Practice Squad
I love Mike Williams. The man is a machine and would be a monster in the red zone (damn you for cutting David Boston, Nick!). Williams doesn't have breakaway speed, he only runs a 4.59 compared to Edwards' 4.48 but he's got much better hands and much better size. If he didn't miss the season he'd easilly be the best player ranked right now but I think the fact that he missed time is scaring off some people. If I had my choice between Edwards and Williams I would also choose Williams. (plus I'm a USC fan so I can continue cheering for him if he ended up in Miami).
Tommatt said:
Well, you also have good points, haha. So lemme adress them in order.
#1: I don't exactly know who the BPA is. I am not sold in either QB being the BPA, especially Smith because he is "a product of the system" QB who played a lot out of shotgun. As far as WRs, if Williams played last year, I would say him, hands down. The problem is, he didn't. While many will argue that that doesn't mean much because he stayed in shape and is a natural talent etc etc, the fact still remains that he missed the most important year of his football career, the year right before coming out for the draft. He had one OUTSTANDING season at USC, as a freshman he wasn't absolutely amazing, good, but not amazing. Sophmore year was outstanding, and he NEEDED junior year to prove that year wasn't just a fluke. As it stands now he had a good season (and a "good" season isn't that hard to have in NCAA football, every WR in the draft, even the 7th rounders, hell even the guys who go undrafted, had GOOD seasons) and a great season. The third season (last year) woulda been the "proving year" so to speak. A chance for us to see that either he is for real, or a "one-season wonder". I'll prolly catch a lot of flak for that because he's "mike williams" and I potentially called him a "one-season wonder" but I haven't seen otherwise. I don't really DOUBT he woulda had a great junior year, but it never happened, so I can't go on what I THINK would've happened, nobody can, or else Ryan Leaf would've been a hall of famer and most people wouldn't know who the hell Tom Brady is. As Far as Braylon Edwards, he had an amazing season, but then again, what Michigan WR doesn't? Tai Streets, David Terrell etc etc. But what happens when the reach the NFL? BUST. They are average at best. There have been 4 or 5 amazing Michigan WRs (and I'm wicked tired so I can't remember ALL of their names right now) that were amazing in college (as Braylon was) and then get to the NFL and are nothing special, and THAT is a scary trend. It makes me think it is just the system they play in (like the RBs in Denver) and not their actual natural ability at the position. I honestly cannot decide who I would rate as the BPA in the draft. ATHLETE-wise I would say Mike Williams, but PLAYER, as in position skill and playing-wise, I can't say, it would require so much thought that the draft would prolly be over by the time I could come up with an answer.
And reffering to "who woulkd a champion team take", lol, you say "Lets say a team thats defense was good, their qb is good, rb is good, wr is good, just won the superbowl, had #1 pick in the draft. Who would they pick? The BPA." To that I say, LUCKY THEM, haha, but seriously, That "team"'s draft strategy of BPA can't be applied to us, because you state that they are set on defense AND offense, thus implying they have no needs, so OF COURSE they would go BPA, why wouldn't they. We however, are not even CLOSE to being set at all our positions, so BPA doesn't exactly work for us. Also, in our case "BPA" could very well be a RB, either Benson or Brown, that would kill two birds with one stone by getting us the BPA AND our biggest need.
#2: I am a huge advocate of Randy, and I only left him out of my first post because, TECHNICALLY, he is a TE and not a WR. I too take him for my fantasy team, have since his rookie year. I STILL however think that we can get another WR later (be it as early as two or late as 4) that will improve our current staff. I am all for Chambers also except I DO think he can be a star, he has done some great things already with freakin FIEDLER and FEELEY throwing to him and no other threatining WR to take pressure off him.
I still say RB is top priority because, even if we get williams or edwards at WR, we still need a QB to GET it to them. Lets face it, you could have Moss, Harrison, AND draft Williams and Edwards, but if teams know the QB isn't a threat (and I'm pretty sure they don't view AJ FEELEY as a threat) than those 4 WRs won't get a CHANCE to get the ball because they will be rushing the QB and not allowing him time to get the reads and throw the ball accurately. This is emphasised by our crap O-Line too. With a running threat defenses must respect the run, which will open the pass, and also allow us to have an effective play action (see Indy's play action). Plus if ANYONE can deal with running with a crappy line it's Benson. I'll even go as far as saying Brown, but thats a reach in my eyes because of y issue with his durabiltiy as a feature back in the NFL given his lack of playing time in college. Looking at Benson's footage (and watching all his games) and reading the reports on him, that guy MAKES holes. There will be NOTHING there and he will still get through. THAT is the kind of guy we need in the current state our offense is in. A guy that can overcome the lack of O-Line play to make plays happen on the ground, plus make Ds respect the run which will open the pass for Feeley, Chambers, Booker, maybe Boston (if he returns), our 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round WR, and McMichael. People are all for Brown because he can "do it all" and "our system isn't a 'give the ball to ricky' system anymore so we don't need a workhorse" but what they are forgetting is our O-line isn't anything great, or even GOOD, so we need a guy that can deal with that, plus take the punishment that comes with it, and that is Benson. I don't think Brown can hold up to that kind of punishment after being a split back in college, with less games and a lower skill level, I'm just not sold.
Well this reply is long enough, so I rest my case until you respond, haha, your turn.