Interesting Take On Vince Young....
- Thread starter NJPHIN34
- Start date
LIQUID24 said:
1 - No, he didn't, but Vince made a bigger improvement than McNabb between the two tries. I never said 6 wasn't low, very low, but the point is he scored higher the second time around, and he scored higher, or close to, some hall of fame QBs and some great QBs of current (most people consider Donovan a great QB). PLus you can't say because he scored a 6 (or whatever it may have been) the first time around that he didn't give a **** about it, a number of things could have caused a 6. Also, have you ever SEEN the wonderlic? I have, and I've taken it (got a 41) and it has NOTHING to do with football, yea, it shows quick and logical thinking, but I know when I was taking it some questions made me pause and go WTF? And not because I didn't know them, but because they were so stupid I was wondering what place they had on the test. Like I said, 6 was low, but he DID get a higher score the next time around, more than doubled it in fact, went from 6 to 16, Donovan went from 12 to 16, an improvement of only 4 compared to Vince's 10, both knew what to expect the 2nd time around, so I believe Donovan should have gotten more than a 4 point improvement if he is "smarter" than Vince and Vince improved 10. And looking back at history a low score doesn't mean a crappy QB and a high score doesn't mean a good QB so it's a pretty moot point. Vince scored Higher than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Terry Bradshaw etc etc, all HoF QBs. And actually, according to http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm Donovan only scored a 14, so that's only a TWO point improvement.
2 - How is it a sign of immaturity if you're a 1st rounder but NOT if you're a late-rounder? That is ridiculous, I would do the same thing, I'd be the first one to pick someone I trusted to negoatiate my stuff as opposed to some guy that keeps telling em to hold out for more money just so HE can make more money. People do it all the time, be it in sports or other branches of entertainment. Off the top of my head I can think of Usher, Beyonce, Destiny's Child, Jessica Simpson, Britney Spears (before she turned all white trash) all those are very succsessful artists and all have parents as managers. Plus, the guy IS a lawyer, and there ARE agents in his firm and that he works with that could advise him shoudl he need help, it's not like Vince just picked some guy from his "posse" to be his manager, the guy knows the lagal lingo and technicalities and laws and contract wording etc etc.
3 - I didn't say Leinart HASN'T taken flak, but he doesn't have "character" article written about him, saying he can't read a defense because he wears bling and hangs with his friends etc etc.
All I'm saying is yes, there are questions about Vince at the next level, but they should be questions about his mechanics and on field decision making that effect how people think he will transfer over to an NFL QB, not because of who he hires as an agent and how he dresses/who he hangs out with, which is what that article said. There was nothing in there about his actual play, it was all about how his off-field life makes him a crappy on field QB :confused: Pointless.
And I'm not a Vince Young guy either, yeah, he was the QB for my favorite college team, but my favorite QB in the draft is still Cutler. I wouldn't mind Vince, but I'm definately not one of the people begging for him, I have my questions about how he will perform in the NFL, but my questions come from watching his on field play, not looking at his personal life and making dumb comments like "I saw Vince eat 4 Big Macs at McDonald's so that makes him too fat to escape NFL linemen and therefore he will fail at QB" or other ridiculous comments. I know the article didn't say that Big Mac thing, but that's basically how outlandsih the article was.
PhinSoldia said:
The ones that are great and do love their team I respect, unfortunately there are tons of people who have no idea what the game of football is like or how the NFL works or have no respect for their team. Just look at the main board during the season, a classic example is how Ronnie has a bad week and suddenly everyone "told you so" that he'd be a bust and Saban made a bad pick, then Ronnie has a good week and those SAME people are like "I TOLD you he wasn't a bust and was a great pic, awesome job Saban". That is just one of MANY examples. I'm not bashing anyone's opinion, but make one and STICK TO IT, I HATE how people just go with the "flavor of the week" as their choice. For awhile everyone was all over Cutler, then Vince declared and everyone was all over him, then Cutler got more hyuped at the senior bowl and suddenly Vince sucked etc etc. People just go so far back and forth it's ridiculous. And not everyone, there are some great posters, unfortunately a lot of them don't go to the main forum anymore either, for the same reasons.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.
The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.
The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.
Pocoloco
I'm your huckleberry
ckparrothead said:
whoa, calm down. I refer you to the last bastion of truth and reason for a fair and balanced article on Young's bad Wonderlic score.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45976
Philter25
MORE COWBELL!!!
ckparrothead said:
June and 1/8th.... whats the big deal?
Philter25
MORE COWBELL!!!
Pocoloco said:
This is the article of truth, because it shows examples of guys who are the minority example. :rolleyes2 Hey, if you wanna take a chance on an idiot playing QB, thats cool with me, im just going to play the percentages.
Pocoloco
I'm your huckleberry
Philter25 said:
philter25, you do realize this is a joke article, right?
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Pocoloco said:
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was enraged or over excited about anything. I'm one of those people that has a potty mouth such that he can be cursing during a completely calm moment, lol.
BTW, Jason Whitlock didn't even touch on HALF of the bad decisions Vince has made since the Rose Bowl.
I agree that sometimes there's being smart and there's being wise. Unfortunately, Vince is neither smart nor wise.
Philter25
MORE COWBELL!!!
Yes I do, hence my picture.Pocoloco said:
However there are a handful of guys on here who will argue that Marino scored a 14 and texas didnt run down a dumbed down offense and Young's mechanics arent a problem because other guys with mechanics problems play in the NFL and Vick is a running QB like Young etc etc etc and discuss the minority exceptions of guys who scored crappy on the wonderlic, who arent good passers, etc etc etc who succeeded in the NFL. Which is what my comment was directed at, not you. I only quoted you because that contained the link....... hope that clears it up.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Are there guys that have scored low on the wonderlic and still made it in the NFL? Yes.
Are there guys that ran the ball 35 to 40% of every time they touched the ball in college and made it in the pros? Yes.
Are there guys that had awkward throwing motions that made it in the NFL? Yes.
Are there guys that converted from a shotgun zone-read offense that made it in the NFL? Yes.
But...are there any guys that scored extremely low on the wonderlic, came from a shotgun zone-read offense, have awkward deliveries, and that ran the ball 35-40% of the time that made it as pro quarterbacks? No.
How many traditional deal-breakers can a guy gather into one prospect? The only thing missing would be if Vince had an arm like a wet noodle, and was 5'9" tall.
Are there guys that ran the ball 35 to 40% of every time they touched the ball in college and made it in the pros? Yes.
Are there guys that had awkward throwing motions that made it in the NFL? Yes.
Are there guys that converted from a shotgun zone-read offense that made it in the NFL? Yes.
But...are there any guys that scored extremely low on the wonderlic, came from a shotgun zone-read offense, have awkward deliveries, and that ran the ball 35-40% of the time that made it as pro quarterbacks? No.
How many traditional deal-breakers can a guy gather into one prospect? The only thing missing would be if Vince had an arm like a wet noodle, and was 5'9" tall.
ckparrothead said:
I'm not defending Vince's 6 score, so I hope you aren't referring to me there. I am defending the fact that he IMPROVED and that the reason the author said he would fail at QB is ridiculous, and yes, I HAVE taken the wonderlic, I scored a 41. Does that mean it's easy or hard, or that I'd make a better thinking QB than anyone else? No, it just means I am good at test taking, I scored a 1440 on the SAT, that is 160 shy of perfect, doesn't mean I'm a rocket scientist though. I scored higher than the valedictorian of my class and yet SHE got a full academic scholarship to MIT, test don't mean very much and aren't an accurate measure of one's abilities, especially ones ability to play football. I KNOW there are many questions about Vince's style and play and ability to run a complex offense, THAT I am not disputing, and if that lame article had stated THOSE reasons as to why he would fail or struggle than I wouldn't have had much to say, because it would have been correct, there ARE questions about his mechanics and defense reading skills, and he did run a "dumbed down" offense at Texas, I am a diehard Longhorn fan and I'll be the first to admit their offense wasn't complex. HOWEVER, the article clearly states that Vince can't read and NFL defense "because he has a posse, wears bling, and has a friend as an agent". THAT is complete BS. MAYBE those aren't the best choices for him, but they in NO WAY effect his ability to read defenses. Again, yes, he DOES have to learn a LOT about reading defenses, but he would have to do that regardless of whether or not he "wears bling and has a posse" or if he picked a seasoned agent or a newbie.
As far as philter and arguing that Marino's low score was in the minority, yeah, but they are EXAMPLES. It's just funny that SO much is made of the wonderlic when three HoF QBs scored LOWER than Vince. I'm not defending Vince's score, or saying he is a better/smarter QB, I'm trying to show the wonderlic doesn't mean much. Peyton Manning only got a 28 or something like that, that is middle ground for the test. MOST of the GOOD QBs in the NFl scored in the 20s. Really BAD Qbs, the career 2nd and 3rd stringers and QBs that never even made it in the league scroed super high and really GOOD QBs, either current or retired and in the HoF or headed there, scored pretty low. I personally am not defending Vince Young or his score, I am just trying to prove 2 things. 1, the article's points, while they may be valid for CHARACTER issues (which I don't see a problem with as many players have agents that are friends or family and "wear bling" and have a "posse") yet they by no means effect the way he reads defenses, and 2, the wonderlic, while designed to give an idea of quick thinking and logic abiltiy, doesn't mean too much nor is it a very accurate measure of how a QB will perform. If anything it shows that Vince can learn from a mistake and improve the second time around, as he scored a full 10 points higher, and the same could be said for any QB who scored low, retakes it, and improves significantly. People look at how low he scored the first time around and how the second time around he only managed a 16, but they fail to see how much of an improvement that is. I'm not even a supporter of him, for our team anyway, of course I will support him in the NFL since he got my Longhorns a National Championship, but I want Cutler or Huff/DB in round one, I'm just defending the guy cuz he is suddenly getting a huge bum rap over his wonderlic and who he picked as an agent. The agent choice doesn't even effect anyone but him, it just means he has the potential to lose money, and that's nobody's problem but his own, so what does it mater to anyone else?
Pocoloco
I'm your huckleberry
I have no time to debate whether or not an awkward throwing motion (to us) really 'matters' when it comes time to translate to NFL-ball, or whether playing out of the shotgun a lot 'matters', or what the 'right' ratio of passing to running is, or anything else. There's plenty of opinions floating around on that anyway.
The point is, all these red-flag sort of things existed a long long time before Young ever heard of a Wonderlic test. Yet, only now is the message board aflame with people's opinions of why Vince won't be able to cut it. It strikes me as ridiculous that a 12 minute test has become such a big deal, especially in light of all the other unorthodox stuff.
In my opinion, I don't care about any of it. If we miss out on Brees (and only Brees), then I would still draft Vince Young at #16 if he was there. Why? Because the guy is a natural-born winner and a clutch performer (forget USC, remember OSU??), and no one has ever been able to coach that.
PS. But Brady Quinn is still light-years ahead!!
The point is, all these red-flag sort of things existed a long long time before Young ever heard of a Wonderlic test. Yet, only now is the message board aflame with people's opinions of why Vince won't be able to cut it. It strikes me as ridiculous that a 12 minute test has become such a big deal, especially in light of all the other unorthodox stuff.
In my opinion, I don't care about any of it. If we miss out on Brees (and only Brees), then I would still draft Vince Young at #16 if he was there. Why? Because the guy is a natural-born winner and a clutch performer (forget USC, remember OSU??), and no one has ever been able to coach that.
PS. But Brady Quinn is still light-years ahead!!
he scored a 16 which is better than Marino scored and more recently McNabb, both of them are good QBs. that writer doesn't make any good points in his article and it's a known fact that he's in love with McNabb and Vick who are also "running QBs like him". Young isn't dumb, I expected more from someone like you :shakeno: but you just went on and on talking a bunch of crapckparrothead said:
the guy got a degree from Texas thats a fact, no amout of tutoring would make a stupid person do that. you guys have no facts to back up saying he's dumb, he didn't get a 6 on the test.
Pocoloco
I'm your huckleberry
SpeedRush99 said:
Sure, some did, but not everybody. Not like this, just in terms of the raw number of Vince Young posts, and the almost daily stream of articles on ESPN or SI, I'd say things have picked up quite a bit. It's not a stretch of the imagination that things are bordering on a really bad type of mob-mentality