Jack Long and Chad Henne or Matt Ryan ?

[Eop05]

Not sure where you got those stats but they're not accurate......Jack Long gave up 3 sacks and 4 hurries in the season opener....

He's given up 4 sacks this season....Joe Thomas also has 4.....Michael Roos has 3......Jared Gaither has only given up 2.....Clady's is accurate with 3 though....

Clady has given up 3.5 sacks thusfar in his career.....Jack Long has given up exactly double that....

And that's with Clady pass protecting more often than Jack.....

Broncos QB's have dropped back to pass 333 times this season.....Miami QB's 292....

Furthermore....I'm not quite sure I understand all the hype with holding Peppers without a sack.....he's been held sackless in 4 other games this season....including BOTH games against Matt Ryan and the Falcons....

Isn't it obvious. A sack is just as much on a QB as it is LT a lot of the times!

There's a reason Clady gave up 0 sacks last year..........JAY CUTLER. He does whatever he has to just so he won't take a sack including throwing 25 INTs a year. 1 year later, he's given Kyle Orton and he gives up 3 sacks in 10 games. Coincidence?....hardly

You put Clady on the Steelers and he gives up 8 sacks a season with Ben.

I'll gladly take Jake's extra 2 sacks given up per season when the tradeoff is the best run blocking LT in the AFC.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Isn't it obvious. A sack is just as much on a QB as it is LT a lot of the times!

There's a reason Clady gave up 0 sacks last year..........JAY CUTLER. He does whatever he has to just so he won't take a sack including throwing 25 INTs a year. 1 year later, he's given Kyle Orton and he gives up 3 sacks in 10 games. Coincidence?....hardly

You put Clady on the Steelers and he gives up 8 sacks a season with Ben.

I'll gladly take Jake's extra 2 sacks given up per season when the tradeoff is the best run blocking LT in the AFC.

I absolutely agree with you here....some sacks are on the QB...some sacks are on the lineman....and if you put Jack or Clady with Big Ben....they both give up more sacks....but Clady will still give up less...

However, none of Jack Long's sacks in week 1 were on the quarterback.....Jack was laying flat of his back before Pennington could even finish his drop...

But having the best run blocking LT in the AFC (which is still debateable)...is similar to having the best run blocking WR.....it's not the characteristic that carries the most weight in terms of being ELITE at that position.....which why left tackle is a cornerstone position in the NFL because your protecting the QB's blind side in PASS PROTECTION....(unless it's a rare case in which you have a left handed quarterback)

 

[Eop05]

I absolutely agree with you here....some sacks are on the QB...some sacks are on the lineman....and if you put Jack or Clady with Big Ben....they both give up more sacks....but Clady will still give up less...

However, none of Jack Long's sacks in week 1 were on the quarterback.....Jack was laying flat of his back before Pennington could even finish his drop...

But having the best run blocking LT in the AFC (which is still debateable)...is similar to having the best run blocking WR.....it's not the characteristic that carries the most weight in terms of being ELITE at that position.....which why left tackle is a cornerstone position in the NFL because your protecting the QB's blind side in PASS PROTECTION....(unless it's a rare case in which you have a left handed quarterback)

It's definitely way more important to have a good run blocking LT than it is a good run blocking WR. I see what you're trying to say, but that's kind of a bad comparison

Take away the first ATL game and Jake has done just fine this year in pass protection. The guy gave up 2 sacks in the first game and 2 sacks since. That's not bad at all.

4 sacks to Clady's 3.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

It's definitely way more important to have a good run blocking LT than it is a good run blocking WR. I see what you're trying to say, but that's kind of a bad comparison

Take away the first ATL game and Jake has done just fine this year in pass protection. The guy gave up 2 sacks in the first game and 2 sacks since. That's not bad at all.

4 sacks to Clady's 3.

It's not just less sacks that Clady gives up....he's also less penalized...(only flagged once as a rookie)...

And my point wasn't that a run blocking WR is more important than a run blocking LT....

My point was that it's more important to have a LEFT TACKLE that's elite in pass protection and coach him up in the run game....than vice versa...

Just like it's more important to have a WR that can run crisp routes and catch the football than one that can't do one or the other but flattens DB's in the run game....

Listen...the bottom line is the same as it's always been for me and it's never changed....never once said Jack wasn't a good player.....I felt very confident that Jack Long was a more natural right tackle than left tackle because he struggles with speed...

Not saying that he can't have a long successful career at left tackle....but that if I was faced with the choice with the #1 overall pick between a QB like Matt Ryan or a tackle that I wasn't convinced was the best left tackle in the draft....I probably would've given the $50 million to the quarterback and called it a day....

That's how I feel...that's how I've always felt....and...well....that's the only way I know to put it...

 

[Chubby]

You cant just call it Long/Henne for Ryan. Need to be fair and say Long/Henne for Ryan/Baker.

Both teams had similar needs in that draft, they just went a different route then us.
They went QB first and got very lucky they were able to move Baker from Gaurd to Left Tackle.

I still like our picks better but their is not shabby, I think both teams will be contenders very soon.
Chubbs

 

[Rev Kev]

*Sigh*.....just found this thread....still here CK...

What do want me to say? That I would still take Matt Ryan over Jack Long? Without a doubt...

You want me to say that I still think Ryan Clady is better? Without question...

We can revisit these "Jack Long/Matt Ryan" threads yearly until the verdict is in....

You see...there's a difference between thinking the sun shines out of Matt Ryan's arse....and KNOWING that it doesn't shine out of John Beck's arse.....or Chad Coachinwaitington's arse......

....or Jack Long's arse...

I'm pleased with Henne thusfar....in fact....you should know that I had Henne as the second best quarterback in that draft behind Matt Ryan....and not Joe Flacco....for obvious reasons.....we'll see how that plays out as well...

I didn't feel like it was as much of a "mistake" drafting Jack Long as I did feel it was a mistake passing up on a franchise quarterback when you need one....and that if you WERE going to select the left tackle with the #1 overall pick....he damn sure at least better be the BEST left tackle in his own draft class....which I wasn't convinced Jack Long was....and that my friend...has proven to be the precisely the case thusfar...

Is Matt Ryan having a worse season in the INT department than he did last year? Yep....but he's still one of the least sacked quarterbacks in the league....which is a direct correlation to his higher number of picks thrown...

Is Jack Long giving up more sacks this year than he did last year? Yep....

So the excuse is Jack Long faces "premier" pass rushers? Guess what....THAT'S why you draft a PREMIER LEFT TACKLE with the #1 overall pick!

He's still only facing one guy.......Matt Ryan (or any QB for that matter) is required to beat ELEVEN defenders on a given pass play....and must be able to count on the guy on the other end of his pass to do what he's required to do as well.....or the QB gets pinned with the negative in the stats column...

Jack is a good player.....Matt Ryan is a good player....we'll find out how good of a player Chad Henne is in time....but I've always felt like he was going to be a good one....maybe not great....but a solid starting quarterback in the NFL...

But I know how all the homers in here work....they never want to compare apples to apples....they want to spin everything into an angle that benefits whatever Dolphin players jersey they went out and bought...

Chad Henne isn't being asked to do what Matt Ryan is doing yet......Chad Henne is being brought along slowly.....they're making his progressions easier for him by making them linear....as opposed to Ryan's who has to scan the entire field....now isn't the time to compare the two.....trust me...

After Henne gets some weapons and when/if the coaching staff ever gets to the point of not relying on the Wildcrutch and letting Henne play quarterback for 60 minutes....then it's comparing apples to apples...

So what about you? Still wouldn't take 2nd year Matt Ryan over Chad Injuryproneington?

Interesting.....

I'll hang up and listen....

OK Clady is extremely good but doesn't fit our smash mouth system - Clady is a twinkle toes - get between himself and the light in the shorts RDE or ROLB..., he won't wear you down but he will protect the blindside..., Jake has a different attitude and make up and will be used differently altogether...

Clady drafted by Shanahan for Shanahan's system is showing signs that he isn't so complete afterall..., was this Shanahan, Cutler, or do we pin this on his new coach or perhaps this is Orton's fault...?

BTW I'll take a sack over an INT...

 

[Eop05]

It's not just less sacks that Clady gives up....he's also less penalized...(only flagged once as a rookie)...

And my point wasn't that a run blocking WR is more important than a run blocking LT....

My point was that it's more important to have a LEFT TACKLE that's elite in pass protection and coach him up in the run game....than vice versa...

Just like it's more important to have a WR that can run crisp routes and catch the football than one that can't do one or the other but flattens DB's in the run game....

Listen...the bottom line is the same as it's always been for me and it's never changed....never once said Jack wasn't a good player.....I felt very confident that Jack Long was a more natural right tackle than left tackle because he struggles with speed...

Not saying that he can't have a long successful career at left tackle....but that if I was faced with the choice with the #1 overall pick between a QB like Matt Ryan or a tackle that I wasn't convinced was the best left tackle in the draft....I probably would've given the $50 million to the quarterback and called it a day....

That's how I feel...that's how I've always felt....and...well....that's the only way I know to put it...

Fair enough

But outside of the 1st game he has hung with the league's elite pass rushers and has done almost just as well as most of the leagues elite pass protection LTs including Clady.

And he is less penalized this year then Clady.

Jake = 1 penalty for 5 yards
Clady = 2 penalties for 15 yards

http://sports.cbs2chicago.com/fb/findplayer.asp?type=position&position=95

And finally....it's Jake Long, not Jack Long

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

OK Clady is extremely good but doesn't fit our smash mouth system - Clady is a twinkle toes - get between himself and the light in the shorts RDE or ROLB..., he won't wear you down but he will protect the blindside..., Jake has a different attitude and make up and will be used differently altogether...

Clady drafted by Shanahan for Shanahan's system is showing signs that he isn't so complete afterall..., was this Shanahan, Cutler, or do we pin this on his new coach or perhaps this is Orton's fault...?

BTW I'll take a sack over an INT...

Of course you would take a sack over an INT......that's easy to type on a keyboard...

...I don't think your decision would be so cut and dry if YOU were the one faced with the decision of being the 270 pound blitzer's landing cushion....or trying to squeeze the ball into a tight window on a throw that you know you can make more times than not...

Interceptions aren't what ruins a young quarterback....Peyton and his rookie record for INT's says hi...

SACKS are what destroys young quarterbacks....David Carr and his rookie record for sacks says hello...

 

[Rev Kev]

Of course you would take a sack over an INT......that's easy to type on a keyboard...

...I don't think your decision would be so cut and dry if YOU were the one faced with the decision of being the 270 pound blitzer's landing cushion....or trying to squeeze the ball into a tight window on a throw that you know you can make more times than not...

Interceptions aren't what ruins a young quarterback....Peyton and his rookie record for INT's says hi...

SACKS are what destroys young quarterbacks....David Carr and his rookie record for sacks says hello...

Jump all over that "I'll take a sack over a INT line" BTW "throwing INTs over throwing the ball away does ruin the confidence of young QBs" and you swiftly avoided the beginning of my response - well OK, in your words Clady is far and away the better LT than anyone else in that draft class..., so grade him an A+, well it's too early to tell -if Jake can maintain your A+ criteria, but know this... Jake was selected because of the scheme, his physicallity and likely some leadership intangibles..., perhaps these things like leadership intangibles matter more than you think...

Had the Fins selected Matt they would have had him sit 1 - 2 years without a line to block for him..., coming off a 1-15 season I think not...!!

What LT was available at the Merling selection..? You know the first selection of the second round..., the Pats failed to pick..., so who was that outstanding LT available..., oh I know I know..., trade up into the first round..., it's so easy... :rolleyes2:

The fact that they hit on Henne and the war room scream and tribal cry makes one think that they didn't feel he would be around come their third selection...

The fact that they passed up on Henne and took Merling only shows that they understand that a team isn't born in one day - so maybe they were thinking what a mess address the O&D lines this draft..., then up pops Henne one pick after Brohm was selected 2d round- how could they refuse - they would have to draft QB early the next year anyway, so they effectively let the draft come to them... those buggers damn them they did the best for us..., so critique them away...

 

[Mile High Fin]

ProFootballFocus.com
This is the most complete, unbiased source for player evaluation in the NFL (outside of NFL personnel departments, ha):

They have a team of people watching EVERY PLAY for EVERY PLAYER on tape.
This is as close to a true SCOUTING REPORT/EVALUATION as anyone will every get:

NOTE: As of today (Monday, 11/23), they don't have yesterday's games completed yet, but they DO have Miami's Thursday game included, so Jake Long has 10 games evaluated, whereas all others have 9 games evaluated.

2009 NFL Season-to-date:
Jake Long ranked #3 LT (behind Joe Thomas & barely behind D'Brick)
Ryan Clady ranked #6 LT

Note: all tackles shown here, with games played at LT or RT indicated.
Link:
http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpasteamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

 

[greasyObnoxious]

Of course you would take a sack over an INT......that's easy to type on a keyboard...

...I don't think your decision would be so cut and dry if YOU were the one faced with the decision of being the 270 pound blitzer's landing cushion....or trying to squeeze the ball into a tight window on a throw that you know you can make more times than not...

Interceptions aren't what ruins a young quarterback....Peyton and his rookie record for INT's says hi...

SACKS are what destroys young quarterbacks....David Carr and his rookie record for sacks says hello...

that's a pretty good argument against picking Matt Ryan though. Vernon Carey was alright at LT, but the rest of the line was absolutely miserable.

 

[AquaInferno]

he said "Jack" Long and Henne or Matt Ryan...

Am I wrong or is Jack and Jake both from the name Jacob, like my name is Tim, you can call me Timothy or Timmy, but I prefer Tim.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I think it's an inside joke around here....

Few months back someone created a thread about "Jack Long" (honest mistake)...and everyone just kinda ran with it...

If you didn't see the thread you wouldn't "get it"...

Hell...I've seen him called Jack around here as many times as Jake...

"Joe" Ireland....

"Phil" Parcells....etc...

 

[greasyObnoxious]

I think it's an inside joke around here....

Few months back someone created a thread about "Jack Long" (honest mistake)...and everyone just kinda ran with it...

If you didn't see the thread you wouldn't "get it"...

Hell...I've seen him called Jack around here as many times as Jake...

"Joe" Ireland....

"Phil" Parcells....etc...

Tony Sporano
Paul Solia/Solai

 

[ITS!MATEO]

Bla bla bring up all the stats you want on Ryan he's no Henne nor is Henne a Ryan, but that's what I like about henne he's his own man and players wana be around leaders like that.. Ill admit I hated him when he was in Mich but all that changed when I seen him on draft day the way he got the call from our FO he just looked like a true leader he didn't jump up and down and scream like a sissy *cough*princess sanchez*cough* I swear at that moment I knew what kinda player he was gna be, give the man a wr to throw to and watchout boys! Now your talking Jake and henne for Ryan??!! I wouldn't even trade henne for ryan str8 up! These are untouchables in my mind, anybody mess with them you'll sleep in the miami river lol had to do it... Cheers!