Jack Long and Chad Henne or Matt Ryan ?

[ckparrothead]

Just for the record, TedSlimmJr is *way* off base saying that Jake Long let up 3 sacks in the Falcons game.

And I mean factually, not even an interpretation thing. While he absolutely let John Abraham bull into him for the sack where Long ended up on his butt on the one play where Jake Grove snapped the ball prematurely and Long wasn't ready for it yet, and he did allow another sack to Kroy Biermann, there was no third sack.

John Abraham did indeed claim two sacks on the day. But his second sack, the one that TedSlimmJr is erroneously attributing to Jake Long, was a stunt that went up against the zone protection tandem of Jake Long and Justin Smiley. Smiley passed the DT off to Jake Long, who maintained one-on-one blocking with him, but did not stay with John Abraham as Abraham stunted to the inside. Chad Pennington had begun scrambling on the play and so Abraham had the angle and went up and tackled Pennington for a 0 yard gain which was technically considered a sack.

I think this proves that Pro Football Focus has superior stat gathering than TedSlimmJr's source, whatever that may be. That "sack" (which was barely a sack at all) was not on Jake Long. Jake Long was fully engaged in pass protection with a different player and Abraham's responsibility was on Justin Smiley, who failed.

Period. End of story.

 

[ckparrothead]

All in all though, I do find it interesting how TedSlimmJr's posturing has changed now that circumstances do not obviously favor his boy Matt Ryan.

Now he's all about "Listen, you can revisit this year to year as players rise and fall," yadda yadda yadda. Of course back when circumstances favored Ryan he hammered and hammered with an aggressive posture demanding that the world acknowledge that it was an idiotic move to take Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

What a convincing message of convenience.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

"Barely a sack"?

So are we categorizing sacks and "barely" sacks seperately now since it involves your man crush?

We're going to need those "barely" sacks listed for the rest of the tackles on PFF's list....

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

All in all though, I do find it interesting how TedSlimmJr's posturing has changed now that circumstances do not obviously favor his boy Matt Ryan.

Now he's all about "Listen, you can revisit this year to year as players rise and fall," yadda yadda yadda. Of course back when circumstances favored Ryan he hammered and hammered with an aggressive posture demanding that the world acknowledge that it was an idiotic move to take Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

What a convincing message of convenience.

No...I said WE can revisit this every year.....as in I'LL BE GLAD TO...

The circumstances still favor Ryan....

I find it interesting that you're beating around the bush at being ready to put Henne in the pro bowl already without actually saying it.....just say it CK if you think Henne is going to be better than Matt Ryan.....SAY IT...

BTW....did you and Vaark study Flacco's game losing INT he threw 8 yards down the field into triple coverage yesterday?

 

[ckparrothead]

Haha, talk about dodging the issue. I guess that's sort of raising the white flag for you. Focus on the fact that I said it was "barely a sack" and don't focus on the fact that I demonstrated that the sack was not in any way Jake Long's responsibility. Riiiiiight.

Let's speak about truth. Here's a truth. Since entering the league, Jake Long has allowed 6 sacks and 19 QB Pressures, according to Pro Football Focus, which I've just demonstrated to be a CLEARLY more accurate source of statistics than whatever it is you're using. Since entering the league, Ryan Clady has allowed 3 sacks and 48 QB Pressures.

If you were to ask me, Jake Long lets up more sacks than Ryan Clady primarily because Chad Pennington and Chad Henne have consistently shown more TRUST in their blind side protector, and that trust has been well placed.

 

[ckparrothead]

No...I said WE can revisit this every year.....as in I'LL BE GLAD TO...

The circumstances still favor Ryan....

I find it interesting that you're beating around the bush at being ready to put Henne in the pro bowl already without actually saying it.....just say it CK if you think Henne is going to be better than Matt Ryan.....SAY IT...

BTW....did you and Vaark study Flacco's game losing INT he threw 8 yards down the field into triple coverage yesterday?

Why won't I say it? Primarily because I, unlike you, have a proper appreciation for premature conclusions. It's far too early to say whether Chad Henne or Matt Ryan will be the better pro QB.

But the Dolphins have gotten good QB and LT play two years in a row despite your insistance that it was such a mistake for them to draft Long over Ryan.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Haha, talk about dodging the issue. I guess that's sort of raising the white flag for you. Focus on the fact that I said it was "barely a sack" and don't focus on the fact that I demonstrated that the sack was not in any way Jake Long's responsibility. Riiiiiight.

Let's speak about truth. Here's a truth. Since entering the league, Jake Long has allowed 6 sacks and 19 QB Pressures, according to Pro Football Focus, which I've just demonstrated to be a CLEARLY more accurate source of statistics than whatever it is you're using. Since entering the league, Ryan Clady has allowed 3 sacks and 48 QB Pressures.

If you were to ask me, Jake Long lets up more sacks than Ryan Clady primarily because Chad Pennington and Chad Henne have consistently shown more TRUST in their blind side protector, and that trust has been well placed.

Clady has given up 3 sacks this year....and .5 sacks last year....which would bring his career total to 3.5......which is half of Jack Long's 7 career sacks according to a different source....can we agree that KC Joyner's stats at the end of the season can be the tiebreaker?

Also, if Jack Long is giving up MORE sacks than Clady...how is MORE of that trust anymore well placed? That doesn't add up....especially when Clady is given the opportunity to give up more sacks and pressures than Jack Long?

But since we're getting right down to it .....Matt Ryan should only be credited with 11 INT's this year and not 12....since one of them was a hail mary on the last play of the game against the Saints....fair?

 

[Dajesus]

Ryan has the benefit of having Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez, and hell Jenkins is probably better than any WR on our roster, and they have a very good o-line and RB in Turner. No one has any idea what Ryan does if he did not have that behind him.

You also have to remember where we were when we made that pick. Both our o-line and d-line was in shambles going in to that draft. Parcels has always known you have to have a good o-line and d-line before you build up any other part of your team. Before we drafted Long we had only had 2, 1 starter, of our o-lineman that currently part of our very good line(Carey, Berger.)

Looking back now I would not trade our 2008 draft for anyone's. We got 2 starting members of our o-line, (Long and Thomas.) Now we have one of the youngest o-lines in the NFL and one of the best 0-lines in the NFL. Then we got 1 starting DE and another who plays a lot. Oh yeah and our starting QB who looks as if he may be our franchise QB who pay as a 2nd round draft choice, and not a one of the higgest paid in the NFL as we would have to pay if we took Ryan. Then we signed our starting WR and K as undrafted rookies.

Ryan is good, but this is not the 2001 draft where we passed on a franchise QB and got nothing in return. We got our starting QB and the guy who insures his blind side is protected. These are 2 conerstones of a great team. Every year the teams with the top 5 picks are looking for those 2 positions. Just ask Oakland. We could have Robert Gallery and Jemarcus Russell. We got both last year in the same draft. I love Parcels, Ireland, and Sparano.

 

[ckparrothead]

Clady has given up 3 sacks this year....and .5 sacks last year....which would bring his career total to 3.5......which is half of Jack Long's 7 career sacks according to a different source....can we agree that KC Joyner's stats at the end of the season can be the tiebreaker?

As far as your phantom third sack in the Atlanta game, no. The tiebreaker is my own eyes. You go to NFL.com, mouse over the Video tab and click on RedZone Re-Cutter. Fire up the Redzone Re-Cutter for the Atlanta Falcons, look on the right hand side where they have videos and folders, scroll down to the Week 1 folder. There will be a bunch of thumbnail videos on the right side of Falcons highlights from the game. The second to last video is the one in question, says Defensive Highlights. Drag it over to the re-cutter on the left and then hit Play. Watch the play for yourself. Costs you nothing. THAT is the tiebreaker. I don't need someone else to tell me that was a Jake Long sack when I can see for my own eyes that it is not a Jake Long sack.

Also, if Jack Long is giving up MORE sacks than Clady...how is MORE of that trust anymore well placed? That doesn't add up....especially when Clady is given the opportunity to give up more sacks and pressures than Jack Long?

My point was that Jake Long gives up MORE sacks despite less than HALF the pressure. Why is this? Because Miami quarterbacks haven't kept an eye out for blindside pressure. They trust that Jake Long is taking care of his responsibility. And you know what? Considering his Pressures & Sacks as a percentage of Pass Blocks is 2.75% (25 / 909 = 2.75%), their trust has been well placed. For Ryan Clady, he's allowed 51 Pressures & Sacks in 1,068 Pass Blocks. That percentage is 4.78%. One would think that since Clady is prone to allowing more pressure than Jake Long, he would allow more sacks and hits on the QB. However, if his QBs did not trust him as much, then they might have made it a better point to be more aware of blind side pressure.

But since we're getting right down to it .....Matt Ryan should only be credited with 11 INT's this year and not 12....since one of them was a hail mary on the last play of the game against the Saints....fair?

That's fair if you do the same for every QB in the NFL, taking out all interceptions thrown in hail mary situations. And if you do that, then Chad Henne's final interception against the Saints would get tossed. It was the same as a hail mary.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

As far as your phantom third sack in the Atlanta game, no. The tiebreaker is my own eyes. You go to NFL.com, mouse over the Video tab and click on RedZone Re-Cutter. Fire up the Redzone Re-Cutter for the Atlanta Falcons, look on the right hand side where they have videos and folders, scroll down to the Week 1 folder. There will be a bunch of thumbnail videos on the right side of Falcons highlights from the game. The second to last video is the one in question, says Defensive Highlights. Drag it over to the re-cutter on the left and then hit Play. Watch the play for yourself. Costs you nothing. THAT is the tiebreaker. I don't need someone else to tell me that was a Jake Long sack when I can see for my own eyes that it is not a Jake Long sack.



My point was that Jake Long gives up MORE sacks despite less than HALF the pressure. Why is this? Because Miami quarterbacks haven't kept an eye out for blindside pressure. They trust that Jake Long is taking care of his responsibility. And you know what? Considering his Pressures & Sacks as a percentage of Pass Blocks is 2.75% (25 / 909 = 2.75%), their trust has been well placed. For Ryan Clady, he's allowed 51 Pressures & Sacks in 1,068 Pass Blocks. That percentage is 4.78%. One would think that since Clady is prone to allowing more pressure than Jake Long, he would allow more sacks and hits on the QB. However, if his QBs did not trust him as much, then they might have made it a better point to be more aware of blind side pressure.



That's fair if you do the same for every QB in the NFL, taking out all interceptions thrown in hail mary situations. And if you do that, then Chad Henne's final interception against the Saints would get tossed. It was the same as a hail mary.

Your........"trust"....... theory.......... might hold more water if it was primarily Long on an island out there pass blocking instead of being helped by his guard in pass protection....wonder what the percentage of that is?

And who is determining what a "pressure" is? Sounds pretty subjective to me.....unless it's clearly a hit on the QB....

This isn't as definitive as an interception, completion, or incompletion.....a sack is a sack....a pressure? That could come in the form of an inaccurate drop by the quarterback just as much as it could from the left tackle cleanly getting beaten....

Henne's INT on the hail mary is nullified as well....it's only fair...

 

[ckparrothead]

You're........"trust"....... theory.......... might hold more water if it was primarily Long on an island out there pass blocking instead of being helped by his guard in pass protection....wonder what the percentage of that is?

I agree. There are all kinds of potential holes in it, like I said it's just a theory, it's just my own guess. I'm not trying to force anyone to think the same as I do about it. Just from my own personal observation the QBs Pennington and Henne have shown a lot of trust in Jake Long. When they get into trouble, they seem to want to scramble in Big Jake's direction and you have to think they must figure that Jake's a good guy to bet on as far as having held onto his block long enough to clear a way for you.

And who is determining what a "pressure" is? Sounds pretty subjective to me.....unless it's clearly a hit on the QB....

This isn't as definitive as an interception, completion, or incompletion.....a sack is a sack....a pressure? That could come in the form of an inaccurate drop by the quarterback just as much as it could from the left tackle cleanly getting beaten....

It is subjective, but so is a Pass Defense or even the very concept of a certain OL "allowing" a Sack. The sack itself may be objective and measurable, but the method for attributing it is certainly subjective. There is some level of subjectivity involved in a lot of this stuff but one thing you can probably trust is a lack of some kind of conspiracy to mark down those stats one way for Ryan Clady and another way for Jake Long.

Henne's INT on the hail mary is nullified as well....it's only fair...

What about interceptions thrown on perfectly placed passes that get tipped in the air by a receiver with a pair of bricks for hands?

 

[CharlieTheTuna]

I absolutely agree with you here....some sacks are on the QB...some sacks are on the lineman....and if you put Jack or Clady with Big Ben....they both give up more sacks....but Clady will still give up less...

However, none of Jack Long's sacks in week 1 were on the quarterback.....Jack was laying flat of his back before Pennington could even finish his drop...

But having the best run blocking LT in the AFC (which is still debateable)...is similar to having the best run blocking WR.....it's not the characteristic that carries the most weight in terms of being ELITE at that position.....which why left tackle is a cornerstone position in the NFL because your protecting the QB's blind side in PASS PROTECTION....(unless it's a rare case in which you have a left handed quarterback)

So because we play in a conference that happens to emphasize passing, we are only going to judge players based on what they contribute to half of the game matter? Yes, it is important to gather personnel that will match up against your competition. The fact that we compete with the Patriots, Colts, and Chargers is why our entire offseason consisted of drafting DB's and signing pass rushers.

However, it was also obvious we were not going to be out gunslingin' these teams. The 2008 draft was the Dolphins statement that we were committed to building a power running football team. You may not consider it the ideal format for a contender, but last season's success is all the evidence I need to say this was the right direction.

Long was one of the three most important players in an AFC running game that carried us to the top of our division last year and that is #3 overall in yards this year. He also helped make the Wildcat formation possible with his versatility in stacking the right side of the line. Yet you choose to judge Long while completely ignoring our own teams strengths, and what has made us successful. The stats given in this thread imply that Jake is a good pass blocking LT at worst. It seems as though no amount of dominating the POA in our run game could offset the fact that Long has given up 1 more sack than Clady. You concentrate on this percieved pass blocking deficiency while searching for reasons to validate ignoring his greatest strength.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

If we are going the knitpick everything a original poster said, the next time a "smith" thread pops up i should start screaming about how we are in the market for Steve Smith(Panthers).

Id rather have Howie Long than Rex Ryan:rolleyes2:

 

[Ricky_Fan34]

So I just read a couple of pages from this thread, and saw there was a lot of arguing going on. I'm not here for an arguement, I'm just going to post my opinion and be done with it.

I'll start off by evaluating Jake Long. We drafted him #1 overall and in his first year, he proved he was worthy of that spot in the draft. As a rookie, he made the pro bowl, which really doesn't mean much to me, but I'll throw it out there. He is one of the key pieces of Miami's unique rushing attack, and a cornerstone of the offensive line for 10+ years. Miami really didn't have much of an offensive line before that draft, and Jake Long was definately a huge part of why the line improved so much. As we all know, he protects the QB's blindside being the LT. We also all know he is a much better run blocker than he is pass blocker. Although, he has been improving his pass blocking skills. He has had tough matchups just about every week this year. The only game he's looked bad in was the Atlanta game. The whole team looked bad in that game though. Overall, I'd give this pick and A up to this point.

Atlanta, with the 3rd pick took Matt Ryan. He lead them to the playoffs, and played very well for a rookie. This year however, he does not seem to be playing at the level he was last year. Sophmore slump? He has 12 interceptions already, and has been making many poor decisions. He had the team sitting at 4-1, but now has them sitting at 5-5, like Miami. Let's not forget that he had some weapons to work with in Atlanta, which he wouldn't have had in Miami. 2008- Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Michael Turner 2009- Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, Tony Gonzalez, and Michael Turner. All of those players are best friends of a QB, especially Tony Gonzalez. If you asked me, many fans would have a completely differant view on Matt Ryan if he was a Miami Dolphin. I don't think we would see the QB we saw in Atlanta if he was a Dolphin.

One of Miami's second round choices was used on QB Chad Henne. We didn't see anything substantial of Chad Henne is 2008 as he attempted only 12 regular season passes. With Pennington going down in week 3 of 2009, we would finally get to see what Henne had to offer. So far, he's impressed. With an astounding 5-2 record as a starter, Henne has lead the team back to .500. He has thrown only 3 interceptions in 7 starts. He has had a recieving corp that lacks a true #1 reciever, and his Tight ends have not helped him much either. He has had one of the NFL's best rushing attacks with Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams. Let's not forget that Chad Henne and Jake Long both went to Michigan, so Jake Long has been protecting Chad's blindside for a long time. Chad Henne has proven to be a winner and has shown poise in tough situations. I'd give this pick another A at this point, just because he hasn't shown me any reason not to give him an A.

The Falcons selected lb Curtis Lofton with their second round pick. I don't know a whole lot about the guy, other than the fact that he has been a monster for them in his two years there. I believe he recorded over 100 tackles last season. With Miami's major problem at ILB, you'd wonder if Lofton could fill that role in the 3-4. He's shaping up to be a stud on that young Falcons defense, and the Falcons definately hit on this pick.

With all of that said, I would still rather have our draft. I like what I'm seeing from our young players, and I'm thinking the pieces of the dynasty are being put in place. I might sound like a complete homer saying this, but I think a dynasty is being built right before our eyes in South Florida. Call me crazy, but I think this team has many Super Bowls in the future, and many of the reasons why came out of the 2008 draft.

In contrast

 

[Valandui]

You cant just call it Long/Henne for Ryan. Need to be fair and say Long/Henne for Ryan/Baker.

Both teams had similar needs in that draft, they just went a different route then us.
They went QB first and got very lucky they were able to move Baker from Gaurd to Left Tackle.

I still like our picks better but their is not shabby, I think both teams will be contenders very soon.
Chubbs

We weren't in the position to move up for Baker. We couldn't move JT until after the draft and they had a third second rounder from DeAngelo Hall. They were in a better position to move back up for an LT than we were.