Meathead admits he duped Spielman

[Agua]

Aqua-
Are you sure this applies to sports? If so then a players agent telling a team that other teams have expressed interest in his client (when non have) that causes said team to raise their offer is fraud? In the draft teams always tell potential trade partners that there are others interested in the spot. So most trades would involve fraud because the team giving up the spot almost always uses this tactic.

More importantly I'm curious, if I sell a piece of real estate and I tell the buyer I have another offer that is better and that causes the buyer to raise their offer then is that fraud if we consummate a deal at the higher price (assuming I don't really have other offers)?

You're getting into law school exam type material here. This is the only set of questions I'm going to treat because doing legal analysis in my spare time is not my idea of fun.

Does it apply to sports? - I am unaware of any "sports" exception to common law fraud. Absent an exception, it applies.

Agent telling a team others have expressed interest when they have not causing team to raise their offer - Two points this may or may not fail on - Is it reasonable to rely on this type of statement? That is a factual question which, unless there is a case on point, can only be determined by the trier of fact. It's possible that it also may be seen as "puffing", generalized statements concerning opinion, popularity, quality, etc., which are inactionable. However, if it gets specfic such as "Tennessee has an offer on the table for 600,000 / year and is the same as yours in every respect", you're getting closer. It would come down, I think, again, as to whether the reliance was reasonable, or should he have done some more homework? (In Spielman's case, he had been on the phone with Carey who, we are told, was on the phone with N.E.).

Other teams using identical tactic - okay if what you say is accurate, then that goes to whether the reliance is reasonable - IF telling someone that you've got someone on the phone trying to jump you is a common practice, then perhaps the reliance is not reasonable - again, that's a question of fact that can only be decided by the trier of fact. I noted in my post setting forth the elements of fraud that this particular element is the only one that is debatable.

Price / house question - It turns again on the question of whether the reliance was reasonable. It is a question that would get to a jury. Obviously, the worse, and more deceitful the conduct is, the more likely it's going to P.O. the trier of fact.

 

[TARHEEL38]

You're getting into law school exam type material here. This is the only set of questions I'm going to treat because doing legal analysis in my spare time is not my idea of fun.

Does it apply to sports? - I am unaware of any "sports" exception to common law fraud. Absent an exception, it applies.

Agent telling a team others have expressed interest when they have not causing team to raise their offer - Two points this may or may not fail on - Is it reasonable to rely on this type of statement? That is a factual question which, unless there is a case on point, can only be determined by the trier of fact. It's possible that it also may be seen as "puffing", generalized statements concerning opinion, popularity, quality, etc., which are inactionable. However, if it gets specfic such as "Tennessee has an offer on the table for 600,000 / year and is the same as yours in every respect", you're getting closer. It would come down, I think, again, as to whether the reliance was reasonable, or should he have done some more homework? (In Spielman's case, he had been on the phone with Carey who, we are told, was on the phone with N.E.).

Other teams using identical tactic - okay if what you say is accurate, then that goes to whether the reliance is reasonable - IF telling someone that you've got someone on the phone trying to jump you is a common practice, then perhaps the reliance is not reasonable - again, that's a question of fact that can only be decided by the trier of fact. I noted in my post setting forth the elements of fraud that this particular element is the only one that is debatable.

Price / house question - It turns again on the question of whether the reliance was reasonable. It is a question that would get to a jury. Obviously, the worse, and more deceitful the conduct is, the more likely it's going to P.O. the trier of fact.

Well what Saban did to Brayon Edwards, telling him that we were definitely going to draft him, so that he would spread the word around for us, is the same thing. Braylon, could have bought a house in south FL or made other decisions based on the info that he was given. That is why he was so upset after the draft, he had been lied too.

If you wanted to take that to court and try to get a pick, you would be laughed out of the courthouse. It happens all the time in sports. I am sure you have a law degree and that you are a good person, but in this situation I think you are over thinking the issue. JMO

 

[Roman529]

How could you get fooled by this guy? Come on! Mike Tice?? Was Spielman the blind kid that Jim Carey sold the dead bird to in Dumb and Dumber?

At least Wanny and Spielman are now history.....Yes Vernon Carey hasn't worked out so far, but give it time...the same with AJ Feeley...they are not busts YET.

 

[LarryFinFan]

Mike Tice admitted that he duped Spielman into giving up a 4th rounder to move up 1 spot iin last years draft.



How could you get fooled by this guy? Come on! Mike Tice?? Was Spielman the blind kid that Jim Carey sold the dead bird to in Dumb and Dumber?

This alone should have been enough to can Spielman. Spielman apologists should be happy that he resigned and didnt get fired.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/11813825.htm

Well he may have been baiting us, but would YOU have taken the chance that Carey would have been taken ?? Besides, Carey himself said that he was on the phone with the Pats when he got the call from Wanny. Look, in last years draft, there were two OL that were considered at the top of the class (Andrews and Carey)...the Eagles jumped up and took Andrews..there was only Carey left...after that there was a big drop off in talent. Lets see, we could have taken Wilfork, but alas, he didn't crack the lineup in NE either. He would have cracked our lineup, but ONLY because of injuries to Chester and Bowens...Of course, RS knew that Bowens and Chester were both going down during the 2004 season (in April of 2004 ???)....Besides this is old old news...

 

[LarryFinFan]

Also, consider the source of that article....the Herald...

 

[GRYPHONK]

Todd Wade started from Day 1.

Chris Chambers and Morlon Greenwood both became starters in their rookie seasons (2001).

Randy McMichael has been a fixture since Day 1 in 2002.

Wade Smith started from Day 1 in 2003.

Rex Hadnot started last season.

Most of the time, you don't expect your rookies to start. The hope is that they contribute and improve. But many times Wanny gave himself little choice because he either traded away a high pick(s) or reached for a player that just couldn't cut it.

Chambers and Greenwood didn't start from day one. They started very late in the season.

Smith and Hadnot started due to injury, or in Hadnots case after 3 previous RG'S didn't pan out/

McMichaels and Wade are the only 2 rookies during his 4 1/2 years here that since day 1 started their rookie season. Everyone else went in by default or in Chambers case having a solid season then starting late.

 

[Agua]

Well what Saban did to Brayon Edwards, telling him that we were definitely going to draft him, so that he would spread the word around for us, is the same thing. Braylon, could have bought a house in south FL or made other decisions based on the info that he was given. That is why he was so upset after the draft, he had been lied too.

But he didn't, did he? It fails because the final element, actual loss, injury, or damage isn't present.

If you wanted to take that to court and try to get a pick, you would be laughed out of the courthouse. It happens all the time in sports. I am sure you have a law degree and that you are a good person, but in this situation I think you are over thinking the issue. JMO

It satisfies all the elements of common law fraud sufficient to get to a jury. I don't know, Tarheel, but square-dealing and honesty in fact is what I come to expect in my every day dealing. Am I jaded by the fact that it's the Phins on the short end of the stick here? I dunno. I would most likely be excluded from any jury trying this matter (if the lawyer for Minny was anything other than incompetent). I assure you, any competent lawyer representing Minny wouldn't be laughing to Red McCombs about it.

 

[Jnaledu3]

Jdnleau,

Don't tell me what fraud is until you've finished law school and practiced 12 years of law as I have. Got it? Here are the elements of fraud:

I dont have to go to law school to smell a hypocrite. Save your courtroom drama for Judge Judy.

Tice and Saban both tried to bluff their way into getting more draft picks. It worked for Tice and it didnt work for Saban. Had Saban or another Dolphins GM done what Tice did Im sure you would be calling it "Good tactic by a smart executive."

More power to the guy who can get more for his money, but this is a case where the fat kid picked a fight with the ******ed (mentally disabled)kid and the fat kid won. Case closed.

Oh and its Jnaledu3, not Jdnleau.

 

[pwn3dyo]

Yep, Mike Tice duped us. Are suspcians are confirmed. Can't blame Tice though, just doing whats best for his team, getting a 4th rnd pick, and paying the player they wanted less cash.

 

[Agua]

I dont have to go to law school to smell a hypocrite. Save your courtroom drama for Judge Judy.

Then don't pretend to tell me what fraud is when you don't have a clue and you're pulling stuff out of your butt, deal? As to your comment regarding hiporcracy, see my immediately succeeding paragraph.

Tice and Saban both tried to bluff their way into getting more draft picks. It worked for Tice and it didnt work for Saban. Had Saban or another Dolphins GM done what Tice did Im sure you would be calling it "Good tactic by a smart executive."

Nope, not in an ethical sense I wouldn't. You don't know me and it's very obvious from making comments like this that you don't. But aside from that, I've set forth the elements of common law fraud for you, shown you how they apply to Tice's conduct, and explained to you why Saban's conduct didn't amount to actionable fraud. I did not say whether it was the right conduct, conduct I'd engage in, or anything approaching that. Hey, maybe you like people lying, cheating you, and stealing from you - the law protects you without regard to your personal likes or dislikes and the fact that a jury gets to determine whether reliance in particular instance is reasonable or not demonstrates the very strength of the system - the standard is there and it applies to every situation.

More power to the guy who can get more for his money, but this is a case where the fat kid picked a fight with the ******ed (mentally disabled)kid and the fat kid won. Case closed.

LOL.... I'm glad I don't live in your world. What is your line of business, btw? Car thief? Street thug?

Oh and its Jnaledu3, not Jdnleau

It's difficult to remember spelling when your handle appears to be nothing more than a nonsensical jumble of letters. It wasn't intentional.

 

[painnotpleasure]

Even if Mike Tice didn't admit that he duped us in the 2004 Draft, it's still obvious to everyone to know that he did. I think the fact that Rick Spielman got played by Mike Tice just shows that he lacks the qualities of being a smart GM in the NFL. This just one example that Ricky Spielman was a horrible GM... plain and simple.

 

[akfinfan]

Mike Tice admitted that he duped Spielman into giving up a 4th rounder to move up 1 spot iin last years draft.



How could you get fooled by this guy? Come on! Mike Tice?? Was Spielman the blind kid that Jim Carey sold the dead bird to in Dumb and Dumber?

This alone should have been enough to can Spielman. Spielman apologists should be happy that he resigned and didnt get fired.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/11813825.htm

Mike Tice is a good coach, so don't knock him unless you know him more.

 

[DolfanISS]

yet just about every post last year was on here saying how great carey was going to be and how he immeditaly would contribute.

My favorite posts were "Spielman does it again" theads. Remember there were tons of them last off season, one for everytime he traded away a draft pick for another mediocre player.

 

[Wildbill3]

Mike Tice is a good coach, so don't knock him unless you know him more.

yeah, and he is also a moron. You don't do something like that and if you do, you never admit to it in public, as it stands now, everyone who does any business with him will never give into any of his demands, and second of all that was very unprofessional on his part, heck he may have cost a somebody another job in the future.

So not only is Tice now considered a moron, he added cheat and con man + ******* to the list of descriptions listed after his name.

 

[finfansince72]

Wonder how much Speilman paid for Tice's Superbowl tickets?