MERGED: Michael Sam to be First Openly Gay Player - Okay w/ Phins drafting him?

[HoneyB]

Not impose themselves on others.

I'm pretty positive he's asking how, exactly. Now so easy, is it?

I'm sure you'll agree that we need to make room for Michael Sam in the locker room. Do you consider that imposing, or not? The positive support of Sam from media and message boards, is that imposing? Expressing disagreement, and rejecting hard line views of people who want to prevent Sam from working in the NFL as an open gay person, is that imposing? What about a "chilling effect," do you believe in that? Or if his draft stock drops, or if he doesn't get drafted at all, do you feel that would be an unfair result for Sam? Wouldn't people speaking out against critics of Sam help ensure that wouldn't occur?

Bottom line is, and I know you know this, is to make room for people. Everything else falls into place.

 

[Canadianfishfan]

I'd like to explore this a little. If you're suggesting that homosexuals are trying to "impose their morality" on those who oppose their view, I'd like to hear how you think that is manifesting itself. Because from where I stand, they're not fighting for more rights than anyone else, they're asking for the equal rights.

Yes they are. And they should be. They should have the same rights as anyone else. But people who disagree with them shouldn't be vilified for their beliefs.

It's not gay specific. It happens by groups attempting to correct a real or perceived injustice.

For example. Perter King wrote about the Sam situation in his MMQB website. All of the GM he spoke with went under "anonymous" in giving their comments. Why? Because of the backlash we all know they would receive, no matter how accurate they would be.

The thing I'm curious aboutis this. (No pun intended) Sam may or may not be an NFL player. He may be HOF bound. He may never play a snap. But now this conversation has little to do with his ability. It's about his orientation.

We all knew this day would come. It was a matter of time.

So if he doesn't get drafted then what? Discrimination? If he does, if he's checking out a guys package in the shower is that sexual harassment?

So if he doesn't get drafted, the narrative will be because he's gay. That is how the "spin doctors" impose censorship. Because we all know there are a lot of players that don't get drafter for a variety of reasons.

He has cleverly ensured that whereever he does, it won't be quietly. Or if his career doesn't pan out, he's got a fall back plan in perhaps writing a book and doing the speakers circuit.

 

[Canadianfishfan]

I'm pretty positive he's asking how, exactly. Now so easy, is it?

I'm sure you'll agree that we need to make room for Michael Sam in the locker room. Do you consider that imposing, or not? The positive support of Sam from media and message boards, is that imposing? Expressing disagreement, and rejecting hard line views of people who want to prevent Sam from working in the NFL as an open gay person, is that imposing? What about a "chilling effect," do you believe in that? Or if his draft stock drops, or if he doesn't get drafted at all, do you feel that would be an unfair result for Sam? Wouldn't people speaking out against critics of Sam help ensure that wouldn't occur?

Bottom line is, and I know you know this, is to make room for people. Everything else falls into place.

There have been gay players before. So it's not like the NFL is alien to it. Sam is merely the first to be "out" about it.

Sam coming out is more than football. Is everything about this kid going to be about him as a football player? or about him being gay?

At the end of the day I don't care if he likes to have sex with animals. Can he play football.

 

[Nawledge]

I wouldn't draft him...he came out for attention and when his draft status drops he can blame it on him being gay and the gay rights groups can start a firestorm and the media will run with it.

 

[JTC111]

Yes they are. And they should be. They should have the same rights as anyone else. But people who disagree with them shouldn't be vilified for their beliefs.

Why not? If someone's beliefs are abhorrent to me or to anyone else, why shouldn't I speak out against it? To keep silent on it allows the abhorrent beliefs to perpetuate and propagate. That's a formula for bigotry to win.

It's not gay specific. It happens by groups attempting to correct a real or perceived injustice.

Are we dealing with a "perceived injustice"?

For example. Perter King wrote about the Sam situation in his MMQB website. All of the GM he spoke with went under "anonymous" in giving their comments. Why? Because of the backlash we all know they would receive, no matter how accurate they would be.

And what if they're not accurate? What if Michael Sam gets drafted, makes a team, and nothing unusual happens? The guy went through 4 years of college sharing locker rooms, showers, bathrooms, and hotel rooms with straight men and nothing happened. Why all of a sudden is that going to change?

So if he doesn't get drafted then what? Discrimination?

Regarding some teams, and in light of the comments you referred to, yes, it's discrimination. Unfortunately for Michael Sam, it's not actionable is most places in this country.

If he does, if he's checking out a guys package in the shower is that sexual harassment?

We already know there have been gay people in the NFL in the past and it hasn't been an issue. Most likely because football is business. There are male gynecologists in the world, right? I'm pretty sure they don't spend their days concocting erotic fantasies about their patients. BTW, straight guys who watch porn spend a lot of time looking at other guys junk and I've heard more than a few straight guys talk about seeing other guys in the shower and commenting on those that deviate from the norm, for lack of a better phrase.

So if he doesn't get drafted, the narrative will be because he's gay. That is how the "spin doctors" impose censorship. Because we all know there are a lot of players that don't get drafter for a variety of reasons.

Yes, a lot of players don't get drafted for a variety of reasons. But speculating as to whether he didn't get drafted because he's gay isn't an imposition of censorship, and if you think it is, you're going to have to explain that to me.

He has cleverly ensured that whereever he does, it won't be quietly. Or if his career doesn't pan out, he's got a fall back plan in perhaps writing a book and doing the speakers circuit.

Now you're making it sound underhanded as if this kid has no right to be open about who he is. Why should he be quiet? Why should any opportunity be off-limits to him?

 

[JTC111]

....and when his draft status drops he can blame it on him being gay....

Won't that be the reason, or at least a large part of the reason? We have cowardly anonymous people from NFL front offices already confirming that's happened.

 

[HoneyB]

So if he doesn't get drafted, the narrative will be because he's gay. That is how the "spin doctors" impose censorship.

Finally something specific.

There's absolutely no difference in your example of a gay player trying to break into the league (openly) and a black player trying to break into the league for the first time, as happened years ago. It's called integration, and equal opportunity. After players, it went to coaches. But I'm baffled. Where is the "censorship?" Where is the example of "imposing morals?"

He has cleverly ensured that whereever he does, it won't be quietly. Or if his career doesn't pan out, he's got a fall back plan in perhaps writing a book and doing the speakers circuit.

Actually, in reality, what he's trying to do is get this out of the way so that he CAN concentrate on football. If he comes out after he's drafted, this whole thing will be a distraction to him and unfairly, to his team. He wants to do it now, and after the blow up dies down, he can play ball. In addition, it becomes a league thing, instead of one team being singled out and saddled with the gay player issue. Again, that's a win for his team.

 

[Nawledge]

Why not? If someone's beliefs are abhorrent to me or to anyone else, why shouldn't I speak out against it? To keep silent on it allows the abhorrent beliefs to perpetuate and propagate. That's a formula for bigotry to win.


Are we dealing with a "perceived injustice"?


And what if they're not accurate? What if Michael Sam gets drafted, makes a team, and nothing unusual happens? The guy went through 4 years of college sharing locker rooms, showers, bathrooms, and hotel rooms with straight men and nothing happened. Why all of a sudden is that going to change?


Regarding some teams, and in light of the comments you referred to, yes, it's discrimination. Unfortunately for Michael Sam, it's not actionable is most places in this country.


We already know there have been gay people in the NFL in the past and it hasn't been an issue. Most likely because football is business. There are male gynecologists in the world, right? I'm pretty sure they don't spend their days concocting erotic fantasies about their patients. BTW, straight guys who watch porn spend a lot of time looking at other guys junk and I've heard more than a few straight guys talk about seeing other guys in the shower and commenting on those that deviate from the norm, for lack of a better phrase.


Yes, a lot of players don't get drafted for a variety of reasons. But speculating as to whether he didn't get drafted because he's gay isn't an imposition of censorship, and if you think it is, you're going to have to explain that to me.


Now you're making it sound underhanded as if this kid has no right to be open about who he is. Why should he be quiet? Why should any opportunity be off-limits to him?

so your trying to say a guy who has seen another penis in a lockeroom is the same as a guy who takes a penis in the ass?

I don't care what gays do behind closed doors but this guy coming out totally reeks of wanting attention and so he can blame it on his gayness for not getting drafted.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

Won't that be the reason, or at least a large part of the reason? We have cowardly anonymous people from NFL front offices already confirming that's happened.

I wouldn't draft him for the fact alone that he came out...

 

[JTC111]

so your trying to say a guy who has seen another penis in a lockeroom is the same as a guy who takes a penis in the ass?

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I wouldn't draft him for the fact alone that he came out...

So it would be because he's gay.

 

[Canadianfishfan]

Finally something specific.

There's absolutely no difference in your example of a gay player trying to break into the league (openly) and a black player trying to break into the league for the first time, as happened years ago. It's called integration, and equal opportunity. After players, it went to coaches. But I'm baffled. Where is the "censorship?" Where is the example of "imposing morals?"



Actually, in reality, what he's trying to do is get this out of the way so that he CAN concentrate on football. If he comes out after he's drafted, this whole thing will be a distraction to him and unfairly, to his team. He wants to do it now, and after the blow up dies down, he can play ball. In addition, it becomes a league thing, instead of one team being singled out and saddled with the gay player issue. Again, that's a win for his team.

Your baffled because you're looking for something. This isn't a who us right or wrong conversation. You've chosen one line and stake your comment on it. It wasn't even the most important of the lot. SMH.

His career will always be defined by him coming out over him being a football player.

So answer me thism would we even be talking about him at all this much if he DIDN'T come out. No we wouldn't.

 

[HoneyB]

I wouldn't draft him...he came out for attention and when his draft status drops he can blame it on him being gay and the gay rights groups can start a firestorm and the media will run with it.

I'm surprised you're not informed about this topic, because it's all over radio and blogs, you can't escape it. It's been discussed, and he did not come out for attention. On the contrary, as soon as he came out on his college team, his performance sky-rocketed, and his stats blew up. Getting rid of that baggage helped him. Therefore, he was more, not less likely to be drafted in the NFL, all on ability. Now why would he want to go back in the closet?

 

[Nawledge]

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So it would be because he's gay.

no...if you read my posts I said IDC what gays do in their own time it has to do with him just seeking attention and media backing.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

I'm surprised you're not informed about this topic, because it's all over radio and blogs, you can't escape it. It's been discussed, and he did not come out for attention. On the contrary, as soon as he came out on his college team, his performance sky-rocketed, and his stats blew up. Getting rid of that baggage helped him. Therefore, he was more, not less likely to be drafted in the NFL, all on ability. Now why would he want to go back in the closet?

so what your saying is I'm not entitled to an opinion?

 

[Canadianfishfan]

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So it would be because he's gay.

Isn't that part of this whole conversation. "Because he is gay."

Can't it be because he's a "distraction"? or like many 3rd,4th,5th rd players, half of the GM don't like them anyway.

So there will be legitimate reasons why he won't get drafted, but now it turns into "because he is gay".

 

[Nawledge]

Isn't that part of this whole conversation. "Because he is gay."

Can't it be because he's a "distraction"? or like many 3rd,4th,5th rd players, half of the GM don't like them anyway.

So there will be legitimate reasons why he won't get drafted, but now it turns into "because he is gay".

that's my point exactly

 

[Ben Had]

I wonder if he perfers the little petite skinny guys or big stong one's like Martin?