MERGED: Michael Sam to be First Openly Gay Player - Okay w/ Phins drafting him?

[Yessir]

Of course they are. But I encourage you to make the case as to why they are not.

The fact that you need a case presented to you is beyond me. It's a flat out INSULT to compare the Gay "struggle" to the plights of Blacks in America.

There is no comparison.


No one in this country was put in chains for 300 years for being homosexual. There has NEVER been a systematic exploitation and institutional degradation of Gays in America.

There has NEVER been any Jim Crow laws in place for homosexuals, dubbing them as sub humans.


Blacks were oppressed because of the color of their skin. They could not walk down the street without someone knowing they were Black, and would be treated like sub humans because they were Black. Blacks had to drink at different water fountains, use different bathrooms, eat at different restaurants etc. Gays do not, and have never ever had those issues. Gays have NEVER been recognized, by the laws, as sub human.

 

[Gonzo]

yeh...I said I get it...beat the dead horse much?

Just making sure. Your use of bold, italics, underline, and stars made it clear you took it very serious and felt that it required immediate attention. Not to mention the hint of sarcasm in the follow-up. To reiterate, you don't need to open the thread. :hi5:

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

So you're yet another who can't articulate it. Weak.

Not trying to take sides but there is one big difference between discrimination between blacks and gays, you can't hide being black. A gay person can blend in whenever they choose. There are gay players in the NFL today. They are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced.

I'm not sure being able (forced?) to hide who you are is a huge benefit, but it is there if you want it. As I have already stated, this is going to happen. The straight guys will have to come to terms with their discomfort. There should be support for those who are really bothered by it.

One question, does anyone think the issue of locker room etiquette needs to be addressed? For both straight and gay players. Language and derogatory terms being used. appropriate behavior for walking around naked. I'm straight and I'd prefer that guys cover up their junk. What happens the first time someone accuses a gay player of unwanted advances? All of these issues need to be addressed in a code of conduct.

One other difference is that some still view homosexuality as a choice (I don't). Those people may feel put off by the choice he has made and be less understanding. They need to be educated.

I just keep thinking about the kids who get to see one less obstacle to being able to be what they want.

 

[JTC111]

First, let me preface repeating my assertion that there are parallels. I never said that one was as bad as the other. Clearly, the history of treatment of African Americans was worse than that of gays, but the parallels are there.

No one in this country was put in chains for 300 years for being homosexual.

That's true. Gay people weren't put in chains, but they also weren't allowed to live openly as gay people in the United States until very recently.

There has NEVER been a systematic exploitation and institutional degradation of Gays in America.

Perhaps not exploitation, but institutional degradation has certainly been present. In many states it's even on the books still.

[h=1]U.S. laws that once criminalized same-sex behavior[/h]"Laws prohibiting homosexual behavior are commonly called "sodomy laws." They have taken many forms in different jurisdictions. Some criminalize certain behavior by opposite-gender as well as same-gender couples. It would not be much of an exaggeration to say that every sexual act except sexual intercourse between a married couple using the missionary position in the dark has been criminalized in at least one U.S. state at one time during its history.

[FONT=arial,helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]These laws and regulations can be traced back at least to biblical times. In England, homosexual behavior was originally handled in the ecclesiastical courts. By 1791 CE, when the original 13 states ratified the Bill of Rights, they all treated sodomy as a criminal offense. By 1961, the U.S. military, and all of the states and territories maintained "sodomy" laws on their books -- some dating back more than a century. Some were worded so generally that they would even criminalize consensual oral sex in private between a married couple as a "crime against nature." In 1961, Illinois became the first American jurisdiction to repeal its sodomy law."

[/FONT]

There has NEVER been any Jim Crow laws in place for homosexuals, dubbing them as sub humans.

While there was no Jim Crow type code of laws for homosexuals, there were laws that ostracized them from society. And up until 2003, anit-sodomy laws made homosexual relationships criminal acts punishable by jail time.
[h=1]Lawrence v. Texas[/h]"Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003),[SUP][1][/SUP] is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court. In the 6–3 ruling, the Court struck down the sodomy law in Texas and, by extension, invalidated sodomy laws in thirteen other states, making same-sex sexual activity legal in every U.S. state and territory. The Court overturned its previous ruling on the same issue in the 1986 case Bowers v. Hardwick, where it upheld a challenged Georgia statute and did not find a constitutional protection of sexual privacy."

Blacks were oppressed because of the color of their skin.

And homosexuals are oppressed because of who they love.

They could not walk down the street without someone knowing they were Black, and would be treated like sub humans because they were Black.

Have homosexuals not been treated like they were sub-human?

4-year-old Jadon Higganbothan
Are black parents murdering their children because they're black?

Marc Carson

Lawrence King

Matthew Shepard

These crimes are not unlike lynchings that were common in the South. The purpose is the same: to intimidate a particular demographic.
Further, we've dehumanized gays to such a degree that we have gay teens taking their own lives all over this country.

From the 2012 FBI Uniform Crime Reports:
[h=2]By bias motivation
[/h] An analysis of data for victims of single-bias hate crime incidents showed that:

• 48.5 percent of the victims were targeted because of the offender’s bias against a race.
• 19.2 percent were targeted because of a bias against a particular sexual orientation.
  
• 18.7 percent were victimized because of a bias against a religious belief.
• 12.1 percent were victimized because of a bias against an ethnicity/national origin.
• 1.4 percent were targeted because of a bias against a disability. (Based on Table 1.)

Let's consider those numbers for a minute. African-Americans make up about 12.6 percent of the population and are targeted in 48.5 percent of bias crimes, approximately 4 times their population. Gays make up approximately 3.8 percent of the population and are targeted in 19.2 percent of bias crimes, approximately 5 times their population. So proportionally, a gay person is more likely to attacked for being gay than a black person.

And not just here but all over the world?

Turkey
Jamaica
Russia
Nigeria (while the police watch)
South Africa
England

Blacks had to drink at different water fountains, use different bathrooms, eat at different restaurants etc. Gays do not, and have never ever had those issues. Gays have NEVER been recognized, by the laws, as sub human.

This is a repetition of what you've already said and what I've already addressed.

 

[HoneyB]

Not trying to take sides but there is one big difference between discrimination between blacks and gays, you can't hide being black. A gay person can blend in whenever they choose. There are gay players in the NFL today. They are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced.

So that's good news, right? No one should have a problem with the people they are barely discriminating against. We can move forward, then?

I just watched the Jackie Robinson flick on HBO today. It was heart-breaking. And yes, I thought of this board. There was a scene where Jackie sat outside the shower room because he said he didn't want to make his teammates feel "uncomfortable." I know some of you have mentioned showers. There were a lot of similarities.

In regards to "you can't hide being black," that's not true. Historically many light-skinned blacks passed for white. They hid their color and heritage. I'm not sure why you think hiding is some kind of perk, though. It's a survival mechanism, and it's not healthy.

 

[JTC111]

Not trying to take sides but there is one big difference between discrimination between blacks and gays, you can't hide being black. A gay person can blend in whenever they choose. There are gay players in the NFL today. They are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced.

Don't take this in any way as a disparagement of Jackie Robinson. Without question the man is a hero. But he's a hero because he chose to put himself in the spotlight. You say gays can just hide within society, but Jackie Robinson could have hidden himself as well to a large degree. No, he couldn't change the color of his skin, but he could have done what so many other black men felt forced to do and walk around with his head down, not make eye contact, respond "yes sir" when called "boy, obeyed the Jim Crow laws, etc.

Robinson is a hero because he rejected the place American society wanted to keep him. He's a hero because he subjected himself to scorn and ridicule. When he was offered the spot on the Dodgers he took it knowing full well that he would hear vile things shouted at him, that things would be thrown at him, that he'd be harassed and hounded.

Is Robinson unique? No. For most of this country's history, white Protestant males have held power. Not wanting to lose power, they set up barriers for the rest of society. Find some old newspapers and read what white Protestant males in power in Mississippi said about Hiram Revels, read what Southern white Protestant males said about Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe, read what white Protestant males in DC were saying about women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Susan B. Anthony, and Alice Paul. All of these people fought to break through barriers and some subjected themselves to atrocities much worse than Jackie Robinson had to endure. All heroes. All putting their lives on the line to open doors that had been previously closed. And all made this a better country for those who came after.

You said that gay players in the NFL today "are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced." This is true. It is true because no openly gay man is playing in the NFL. None have had the courage to put so much on the line. And that's why what Michael Sam is doing is heroic. This could all go very badly for him but despite the risks, he's putting himself out there openly. If he's successful and if he is accepted, his action will open the door for more openly gay men to play football, just as Jackie's action opened the door for more black men to play in the major leagues.

Remember that back in 1947, to most of America, Jackie Robinson was a troublemaker who didn't know his place.

 

[GreenMts]

And before you say, oh no, not me, you should understand that sexuality is in shades, it's not black and white, and men and women both seek the company of their same sex in varying degrees.

And yes, I did put the panic button up there for you, because you seem to need it.

.

I DO need a Panic button - you're right. I'm freaking out man! There are gays running through the streets! Maybe in my own office at work ... or even in my own family. These are SCARY times.

By the way here's what I think of gay marriage while I'm at it. You get to decide who I am in this cartoon.


We have the gay haters on this forum and we have the earnest PC followers. Thanks for the very earnest responses on this oh, so important groundbreaking news!

Jeez I wonder if there are some homosexuals in ballet or theater? Let's talk about that too. It's fascinating...

 

[GreenMts]

Eventually things will explode with some sort of cultural war when people have been censored enough.

Sweet - here come the "culture wars". Moral majority jihad!

My money is on this guy starting them ...

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Don't take this in any way as a disparagement of Jackie Robinson. Without question the man is a hero. But he's a hero because he chose to put himself in the spotlight. You say gays can just hide within society, but Jackie Robinson could have hidden himself as well to a large degree. No, he couldn't change the color of his skin, but he could have done what so many other black men felt forced to do and walk around with his head down, not make eye contact, respond "yes sir" when called "boy, obeyed the Jim Crow laws, etc.

Robinson is a hero because he rejected the place American society wanted to keep him. He's a hero because he subjected himself to scorn and ridicule. When he was offered the spot on the Dodgers he took it knowing full well that he would hear vile things shouted at him, that things would be thrown at him, that he'd be harassed and hounded.

Is Robinson unique? No. For most of this country's history, white Protestant males have held power. Not wanting to lose power, they set up barriers for the rest of society. Find some old newspapers and read what white Protestant males in power in Mississippi said about Hiram Revels, read what Southern white Protestant males said about Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe, read what white Protestant males in DC were saying about women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Susan B. Anthony, and Alice Paul. All of these people fought to break through barriers and some subjected themselves to atrocities much worse than Jackie Robinson had to endure. All heroes. All putting their lives on the line to open doors that had been previously closed. And all made this a better country for those who came after.

You said that gay players in the NFL today "are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced." This is true. It is true because no openly gay man is playing in the NFL. None have had the courage to put so much on the line. And that's why what Michael Sam is doing is heroic. This could all go very badly for him but despite the risks, he's putting himself out there openly. If he's successful and if he is accepted, his action will open the door for more openly gay men to play football, just as Jackie's action opened the door for more black men to play in the major leagues.

Remember that back in 1947, to most of America, Jackie Robinson was a troublemaker who didn't know his place.

Both this and the last post are really high quality (not an indictment on your other posts). Right on the mark.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

So that's good news, right? No one should have a problem with the people they are barely discriminating against. We can move forward, then?

I just watched the Jackie Robinson flick on HBO today. It was heart-breaking. And yes, I thought of this board. There was a scene where Jackie sat outside the shower room because he said he didn't want to make his teammates feel "uncomfortable." I know some of you have mentioned showers. There were a lot of similarities.

In regards to "you can't hide being black," that's not true. Historically many light-skinned blacks passed for white. They hid their color and heritage. I'm not sure why you think hiding is some kind of perk, though. It's a survival mechanism, and it's not healthy.

Did you not read the next sentence?

I'm not sure being able (forced?) to hide who you are is a huge benefit, but it is there if you want it

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

You said that gay players in the NFL today "are not experiencing what Jackie Robinson experienced." This is true. It is true because no openly gay man is playing in the NFL. None have had the courage to put so much on the line. And that's why what Michael Sam is doing is heroic. This could all go very badly for him but despite the risks, he's putting himself out there openly. If he's successful and if he is accepted, his action will open the door for more openly gay men to play football, just as Jackie's action opened the door for more black men to play in the major leagues.
.

This is the point I was trying to make. I was merely pointing out a slight distinction between what blacks have experienced and what gays have experienced. I wasn't trying to justify either behavior. Before Michael Sam, a gay man could follow his dream and play in the NFL. Before Jackie Robinson, a black man could not follow his dream and play in MLB. That was my only point. I wasn't claiming that feeling like they needed to keep their sexuality secret was fair.

I agree with your last sentence. I think it is important for someone to be first. I also look forward to a star coming out. That will be an important next step.

 

[JTC111]

Both this and the last post are really high quality (not an indictment on your other posts). Right on the mark.

Thank you.

 

[JTC111]

86 percent OK with gay teammate

Interesting results, especially, I think, to #2 since it's been asserted in this and other threads that it's what goes on all the time in every locker room. I'm not sure about the validity of #4 because unlike the other three questions that ask for the opinion of the player taking part in the survey, #4 is asking for an assessment of an unknown generic person.

It would be interesting to take this same poll here at FinHeaven if only to gain a little insight into whether football players are actually more progressive than football fans.

--------------------------------------------

ESPN.com's NFL Nation and ESPN The Magazine asked players, on the condition of anonymity, four true-false questions about their thoughts on having a gay teammate. Here are the results:

• A player's sexual orientation matters to you.
»» True: 7
»» False: 44

• I had teammates or coaches who used homophobic slurs this past season.
»» True: 32
»» False: 19

• I would shower around a gay teammate.
»» True: 39
»» False: 12

• An openly gay player would be comfortable in an NFL locker room.
»» True: 25
»» False: 21
»» No answer: 5

 

[hoops]

out of the league in 3 years or less...my michael sam prediction

 

[JTC111]

out of the league in 3 years or less...my michael sam prediction

Why?