MERGED: Shouldn't we take a look at Cleo Lemon?

[adamprez2003]

I see reasons why Culpepper deserves that opportunity, given the success he has established in this league for a long time couple with his knee recovery, but I see no reason to continue giving Harrington opportunities that he has had and blown time and time again.

And again, this is why I say you need to put Daunte back in the game at some point this year. You need to know.

The reason I brought up the issue of drafting a QB is because we may have a rare opportunity. This draft holds two, potentially up to four quarterbacks that could grade out somewhere between mid-first round and second round levels.

I keep hearing that Jamarcus Russell is surpassing Brian Brohm on draft boards...and the chatter is too consistent to ignore. Brohm himself may stay or may come out, and if he does come out what I am hearing is that he's no guaranteed top 10 guy because scouts think he's not ready yet (for whatever reason). I also know that Troy Smith will have a tough time cracking the top 10 or 15 because of height and off-field character questions...yet on the field he's a phenomenal QUARTERBACK (not a runner). Also, we don't know where Drew Stanton is going to end up when all is said and done...and the draft does always seem to give you one guy that becomes a fast riser. This year it could be anyone from Kevin Kolb to Lester Ricard to John Beck.

The only certainty at this point is that Brady Quinn will go top 5, if not #1 overall.

You have to look at both sides of these things, the best talents available as well as your team needs. In an NFL where it is considered acceptable to have a young QB sit your bench for two full seasons, that gives Culpepper a lot of time to get out there and do his damage before the team is faced with a "one stays, one goes" dilemma.

And let me tell you, the Chargers' dilemma with Drew Brees and Phil Rivers, that's one dilemma I'd love to be dealing with.

The QBs you just mentioned are all worth a shot if available though it depends where. Brian Brohm if available when we pick would be a must. He is perfectly suited for our offense. Troy Smith if he were to fall to the second would be a good pickup but I feel using our first on him would be too much of a gamble. I am not sure his game will translate to the pros and more importantly our system. I have questions about how much time he needs for plays to develop. I would be willing to risk a 2nd rounder to find out but a first would almost be too much of a gamble. Jamarcus Russell would be interesting. Has some great tools. Kevin Kolb intrigues me and I think he could be great value with a 3rd or 4th but I'll need to see him in allstar games to determine how he looks under center as opposed to shotgun. He was under center for alot of his last TV game and he looked alright but not completely comfortable. I would like to see some more improvement come January. Beck seems like a Detmer type but maybe I'm wrong on him.

Personally if the value is right I'm for drafting a QB but right now I think Brohm is the only one who would stack up to a first rounder though Russell would be an interesting option

 

[ckparrothead]

The QBs you just mentioned are all worth a shot if available though it depends where. Brian Brohm if available when we pick would be a must. He is perfectly suited for our offense. Troy Smith if he were to fall to the second would be a good pickup but I feel using our first on him would be too much of a gamble. I am not sure his game will translate to the pros and more importantly our system. I have questions about how much time he needs for plays to develop. I would be willing to risk a 2nd rounder to find out but a first would almost be too much of a gamble. Jamarcus Russell would be interesting. Has some great tools. Kevin Kolb intrigues me and I think he could be great value with a 3rd or 4th but I'll need to see him in allstar games to determine how he looks under center as opposed to shotgun. He was under center for alot of his last TV game and he looked alright but not completely comfortable. I would like to see some more improvement come January. Beck seems like a Detmer type but maybe I'm wrong on him.

Personally if the value is right I'm for drafting a QB but right now I think Brohm is the only one who would stack up to a first rounder though Russell would be an interesting option

Brohm, Russell, Smith, and don't forget Drew Stanton...they all stack to where they should be considered anywhere after the first 12 picks in the draft.

Troy Smith...not sure I see where you see "translation" issues. Ohio State's offense isn't a gimmick based offense and Troy Smith has not been a gimmick quarterback (ie. running qb) for a while now.

And as for quarterbacks that generally have too much time to throw the ball, Brian Brohm is much more in that boat than Troy Smith. Smith uses the short passing game more than Brohm does. You can't beat Brohm's accuracy and I like his poise, leadership, etc...but a significant portion of his best throws and plays have come more than 4 seconds after the ball was snapped. I think this is the thing that scouts are nervous about.

I can't say the same about Troy Smith.

 

[PhinsRock]

If we lose one more game, then Lemon should ge given the chance to show what he's got. Makes all the sense in the world. If we are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, then play the kid and see what he's got. If he sucks then we know he's not the answer, but already we know Joey's not the answer, and we won't find out about Daunte till next year, so lets see what we've got in Lemon.

 

[PhinsRock]

I agree with ck (nothing new there) this may be a good year to draft a QB, and I also want to see Daunte out there in the last game or two, so we see where he's at and find out if he is going to return to form. We need to know about Daunte so we know whether to draft a QB. Joey certainly isn't the answer.

 

[adamprez2003]

Brohm, Russell, Smith, and don't forget Drew Stanton...they all stack to where they should be considered anywhere after the first 12 picks in the draft.

Troy Smith...not sure I see where you see "translation" issues. Ohio State's offense isn't a gimmick based offense and Troy Smith has not been a gimmick quarterback (ie. running qb) for a while now.

And as for quarterbacks that generally have too much time to throw the ball, Brian Brohm is much more in that boat than Troy Smith. Smith uses the short passing game more than Brohm does. You can't beat Brohm's accuracy and I like his poise, leadership, etc...but a significant portion of his best throws and plays have come more than 4 seconds after the ball was snapped. I think this is the thing that scouts are nervous about.

I can't say the same about Troy Smith.

I havent caught as many games of Troy Smith as I shouldve but from what I saw the plays where he really made some nice plays were way too long in developing. My only concern was that he wont have that time in the pros but if you say those games were just aberrations and he can make quick and successful decisions than I think the kid has a great game.

As for Brohm, the system may be hurting him as well as his injury problems. Not sure but I heard the same stuff about him slipping down which might just cause him to stay another year

 

[ckparrothead]

I agree with ck (nothing new there) this may be a good year to draft a QB, and I also want to see Daunte out there in the last game or two, so we see where he's at and find out if he is going to return to form. We need to know about Daunte so we know whether to draft a QB. Joey certainly isn't the answer.

Yeah and important to note that even if Daunte looks kind of mediocre, doesn't mean we give up on him.

Even if we draft a guy in round 2, doesn't mean we give up on Daunte.

It just means we're improving the position. Good QBs are highly saleable assets.

 

[ckparrothead]

I havent caught as many games of Troy Smith as I shouldve but from what I saw the plays where he really made some nice plays were way too long in developing. My only concern was that he wont have that time in the pros but if you say those games were just aberrations and he can make quick and successful decisions than I think the kid has a great game

As for Brohm, the system may be hurting him as well as his injury problems. Not sure but I heard the same stuff about him slipping down which might just cause him to stay another year

If anything the Louisville system is helping Brohm. They run a very nice system there, very balanced, good play calling...looks the spitting image of a classic Linehan system (Linehan coached Louisville's offenses before he went to Minnesota).

The thing that concerns me is if you start to break down their tremendous OL, Brohm gets rattled and he's not the same. You can say that about any QB but it might be truer for Brohm than for others.

Great winning mentality on him, and superb accuracy (can't stress that enough)...but what happens when you switch his average internal clock time from 3.8 seconds to 2.8 seconds?

I think Troy Smith is more adept with the quick passing game than Brohm. I actually don't see him using quite enough of the vertical passing game, considering he's got Ted Ginn at WR.

 

[ckparrothead]

You don't have to take my word for it though, this is a classic example of a scouting report on Troy Smith...

Positives: Has good body structure with solid muscle definition, good upper body tone in his chest and arms, good bubble, thick thighs and calves and above average body control, balance and flexibility…His feet and strong throwing arm make him a viable threat to score on the ground or throwing the ball…Has the foot quickness and agility to throw on the move, showing the body control and balance to break tackles or avoid the defender with his explosive second gear to accelerate into the second level…His ability to scramble allows him to stay alive rolling out of the pocket, as well as put the ball away and run with it when his targets are covered (see 2004 Michigan and 2005 San Diego State, Iowa and Northwestern games).

Does a good job of retaining plays and is quick to improvise on the run…His natural football instincts are displayed with his ability to create when his targets are covered…His low interception ratio (only 7 INTs on 359 pass attempts) indicates that he is capable of scanning the field, stepping up in the pocket or throwing the ball away rather than try to force the ball into a crowd…Aggressive playmaker who will not hesitate to sacrifice his body to make the play…Sells out and plays with reckless abandon, sort of like Steve McNair earlier in the former Titans (now Baltimore) QB's career…Shows good accuracy with all of his throws and will make a lethargic defense pay for even one mistake…One of his best attributes is his ability to create on a broken play (see 2005 Michigan and Notre Dame games)…Very effective throwing on the move and carries the ball chest-high…Steps to his target point with good balance in his drop and helps put good velocity behind his tosses by keeping his feet under him.

Does a good job of laying the ball away from defenders and it is rare to see him try to force the ball into a crowd… Does not eye-ball his primary target for too long and is very good job of recognizing underneath coverage (not many of his passes are tipped at the line of scrimmage)…Has developed a high release, showing the ability to improvise on the move…Throws across his body effectively and has good timing and consistency moving the chains …Takes what the defense gives him rather than going for the "home run" ball at every opportunity…Has nice touch throwing in the short-to-intermediate areas and threads the needle well…Has a knack for making proper adjustments at the line of scrimmage and the vision needed to scan the field.

Distributes the ball well, utilizing all of his receivers with effectiveness and is quick to look off his primary target and go through progressions…Effective at hitting his receivers in stride and over his target's outside shoulder…It is very hard for the defender to lock on to Smith due to his natural awareness…Poses a real threat for the opponent with his quick feet when flushed out…Can avoid the sack and buy a second chance, showing the ability to create out of a complete breakdown in protection…Has good body control rolling out of the pocket and does a nice job of avoiding on the move…Best when attacking from the far hash, as he is a threat with both his feet and arm…Has very good accuracy throwing the intermediate pass when on the run.


Negatives: Lacks the ideal height you look for in a pocket quarterback…Better suited for a spread offense…Will sometimes revert to a wind-up delivery, but still has the ability to get the ball off quickly…While he might revert to sidearm action at times (see 2004 Purdue game), he will generally use an over-the-top release…Does show a bit of a windmill action at times, but demonstrates quick load-&-reload ability, thanks to his arm strength and quickness…Best in the short-to-intermediate area, as some of his deep throws will sail…Seems to be more accurate throwing on the run than in his drops from center…Had character problems in high school and openly complained on how the OSU coaching staff used him his first two years in the program…Has had several off-field incidents, most notably a 2003 arrest (see Off-Field Issues on his profile)…His lack of size and off-field past will not win him many fans among pro scouts unless he continued to show a solid work ethic.

Notice how many different things he does really well...and the main negatives are really that he's not as good with the deep ball as he is with the short and intermediate ball, his height, and his character.

The guy continues to display very solid work ethic, says all the right things to the media, etc...but in general, he's regarded as an @sshole off the field.

 

[adamprez2003]

If anything the Louisville system is helping Brohm. They run a very nice system there, very balanced, good play calling...looks the spitting image of a classic Linehan system (Linehan coached Louisville's offenses before he went to Minnesota).

The thing that concerns me is if you start to break down their tremendous OL, Brohm gets rattled and he's not the same. You can say that about any QB but it might be truer for Brohm than for others.

Great winning mentality on him, and superb accuracy (can't stress that enough)...but what happens when you switch his average internal clock time from 3.8 seconds to 2.8 seconds?

I think Troy Smith is more adept with the quick passing game than Brohm. I actually don't see him using quite enough of the vertical passing game, considering he's got Ted Ginn at WR.

Well the thing I like with Brohm is obviously his accuracy and two his transition to our offense would be about as smooth as you could hope for, for the reasons you stated. I'm a firm believer that part of drafting a QB is to make sure he has the right skill set for your type of scheme. Brohm has every skill we need. I noticed that he looks a bit skittish this year when protection breaks down but its not to the point where he panics. I think having an injury and possibly wanting to get drafted this year may be playing a part in this as opposed to him just being scared of getting hit since last year he was fine with strong pressure. Brohm pronbably doesnt have the physical numbers the other QBs have but he probably has the prettiest pass out of any of them. I just honestly feel that he is the best suited QB for our offense where other QBs would have to transition into our system and when you get into learning new systems you add another layer of uncertainty

 

[adamprez2003]

By the way I'm a fan of Troy Smith. My concern is transition to our system. You seem to feel that shouldnt be a concern. You may be right. I feel Troy Smith will be a good QB in the right system and if his skillset translates to what we need from a QB I'm all for getting him

 

[BLITZKRIEG]

Harrington flat out isn't as good as MOST second stringers.

Harrington is one of the best back-up QB's in the entire league.....

I'd be absolutely shocked if Cleo did worse than Harrington.

Reading that, I take it you're a highly medicated individual....

Stop equating the win streak with anything Joey or even the offense did. The only team our offense was good against was arguably the worst team in the league and certainly the worst franchise in all NFL history.

Funny how you're the only one here who believes that.....

Most of the fans here think that Harrington did his job, and played well in all four victories. I think without Harrington, our offense would be a lot worse off at this stage....

Joey has been as poor a critical situation player as we've ever seen on this team or in the league in general.

You must not remember Lucus / Fiedler / or Feeley. Harrington is much better than all three of them, and I would almost say that Harrington has been as good as Frerotte was for us a year ago. He's 4-4, and had he started the season, who knows where we'd be right now. My guess would be in the playoff hunt....

The fact that our defense can be so strong and he still has more int's than td's is a huge, glaring factor in and of itself.

The reason the defense finally showed up was because they got called out by the 72' Alum during the bye week. That's my personal opinion, and prior to that game at Chicago, they looked like garbage....

They rode that momentum through 4 straight games, and during that span showed that they have great pride in themselves. Now, after getting exposed by Jacksonville, they're back to ground level again, and nobody knows if they'll rebound. They may have just spent everything they had over these last several weeks, and it sure looked like a tired group against the Jaguars....

The bottom line is, unless you are Rex Grossman, it's hard to play as poorly as Joey has most of the season, especially on a team that is so dynamic on Defense.

Wrong. People around the NFL have nothing but positive things to say about Harrington playing in Miami. Almost everyone I've seen within the media thinks that he's a great fot for the Phinz, and was an excellent off-season addition....

The defense has been very solid, no question, but they're not a dominating / dynamic unit by any means. If they were, they wouldn't allow 80-90 yard TD drives on a weekly basis....

When called upon to put us in position to win games, Joey Harrington has failed miserably.

He's been leading our offense down the field every week, and he's also proven that he can put us in position to win games...

I for one, would love to see Cleo and I don't care if it's the Bills, Pats, Jets or Indy.

Have fun waiting....and waiting.....and waiting.....and waiting. It's not happening...

There is no reason to think Cleo would be any worse, in fact there is a lot of reason to think he'd be better.

No comment. :sidelol:

Having 95 yards passing and scoring 2 tds on 7 of 12 passing is far, far, far better than a td and 2 ints on 25 for 40 passing with 240 yards.

Is it really???....

David Garrard is clear proof of that and it was Garrards elusiveness in the pocket that gave them the significant offensive edge over us. Elusiveness that Cleo has and Joey doesn't!

So in your opinion, Saban should start Lemon at QB because of his elusiveness??....okay. :couch:

PHINZ RULE!!!!!

 

[ckparrothead]

By the way I'm a fan of Troy Smith. My concern is transition to our system. You seem to feel that shouldnt be a concern. You may be right. I feel Troy Smith will be a good QB in the right system and if his skillset translates to what we need from a QB I'm all for getting him

I actually feel it won't be a concern because of the way he plays like Drew Brees does, using the short game so well...distributing the ball between a number of different options...etc. That's why I was surprised to hear you talking about how he will have trouble adjusting to the NFL where offensive lines give you less time.

I think Smith will have less trouble adjusting to the speed of the pro game than Brohm. Smith's legs will help him with that transition, too. Yes, Smith would have to transition to this offense and playbook...but in the end it's just a playbook. More important is transitioning stylistically.

It's a big step going from sitting behind a line that gives you 4 or 5 seconds to make a play, to sitting behind an offensive line that gives you 2 or 3 seconds.

 

[adamprez2003]

I actually feel it won't be a concern because of the way he plays like Drew Brees does, using the short game so well...distributing the ball between a number of different options...etc. That's why I was surprised to hear you talking about how he will have trouble adjusting to the NFL where offensive lines give you less time.

I think Smith will have less trouble adjusting to the speed of the pro game than Brohm. Smith's legs will help him with that transition, too. Yes, Smith would have to transition to this offense and playbook...but in the end it's just a playbook. More important is transitioning stylistically.

It's a big step going from sitting behind a line that gives you 4 or 5 seconds to make a play, to sitting behind an offensive line that gives you 2 or 3 seconds.

Good points. I still go back to last year with Brohm where he seemed to be fine with a pocket collapsing on those few plays where it happened. With Smith, his height might make the passing lanes a bit tough to decipher in the short game for the first year or two but like Brees he should figure out how to compensate for that in a couple of years. Either way the four QBs I wouldnt mind getting are Brohm, Smith, Russell and Kolb( only if he shows he can play under center and doesnt cost more than a 3rd or 4th). I'm not as sold on Stanton as some and Quinn will be long gone.

 

[R_t_Kraken]

Yes we should. No reason not to. I like Joey. He will be a more than adequate backup QB. We already know that much. Our playoff hopes are shot, the only thing we've really got to play for is playing spoiler to the Jets.

Give the guy a chance to see what he's got. You just never know in this league. If he sucks, he stays 3rd string, no harm no foul. But if he does well, we'll have something to look forward to in TC and PS next year.

 

[ckparrothead]

Good points. I still go back to last year with Brohm where he seemed to be fine with a pocket collapsing on those few plays where it happened. With Smith, his height might make the passing lanes a bit tough to decipher in the short game for the first year or two but like Brees he should figure out how to compensate for that in a couple of years. Either way the four QBs I wouldnt mind getting are Brohm, Smith, Russell and Kolb( only if he shows he can play under center and doesnt cost more than a 3rd or 4th). I'm not as sold on Stanton as some and Quinn will be long gone.

You're kind of assuming he hasn't already figured it out.

With short guys (Brees) and guys with low deliveries (Rivers)..you worry about two things.

Vision. Can he see everything on the field?

Low ball. Will he get passes batted down?

In the cases of Brees and Rivers it was easy to see that they had already learned to compensate for their shortcomings by virtue of the results. Brees distributed the ball extremely well in college, as did Rivers, and as does Smith. Also, neither Brees, nor Rivers, nor Smith, have ever had any trouble with getting balls batted down at the line...in fact they seem to be keenly aware of the passing lane issues, probably BECAUSE of their "handicap".

I'd definitely go with Stanton before Kolb. I've seen Kolb and I honestly see nothing special about him. Stanton makes big plays against big teams...yet didn't have an ideal team surrounding him.