Merged X12: Ongoing Henne vs. Sanchez Debate...

[AdamD13]

that makes you sound like a moron. he pump faked the **** out of freeny. that was an amazing play by sanchez.

Thank you for your intelligent insight. I am being called a moron by a person that doesn't capitalize the first word of a sentence or spell a player's name correctly. Also, refers to a player who was NOT covering Edwards on that play. You must be a Jet fan.

 

[DuderinoN703]

My argument is not that Henne didn't throw enough TDs, it's that he didn't do enought o lead his O to points early in games to keep them in games.

The fumble isn't his fault but the INts are and his iniablity to put drives together he gets his share of the blame for.

You can show that all you want but I wasn't making excuses for sanchez like you guys are for henne. When I do that then you can show that info.

Now henne is getting credit for a pass against indy when he didn't even play? I didn't blame their O for that loss anyway.

I haven't blamed the Phins O for any of those losses but they were a aprt of the problem and deserved their share of the blame while you guys are trying to just blame the D.

:

First you tried to blame Henne for putting the Phins in bad spots defensively by giving the opponents the ball in good FP (which you still haven't responded to given I showed stats that told the opposite story). Now it's Henne not being able to put the points on the board. Keep in mind the Phins lost by 3, 7, and 6. When your defense gives up 27.5 points a game in three consecutive games at the end of the year, how successful would any QB not Manning or Brady be?

 

[nyjunc]

C'mon...I have seen you bunch Sanchez' playoff games together on several posts to try and show Sanchez was really something in the postseason. Pure manipulation of stats. The reality is Sanchez was great against Cincy and sucked against both SD and Indy! The Jets only scored 17 points against both SD and INDY. The Redskins, Lions, Bills, Browns, Buccaneers, Raiders, and Rams are the only teams in the NFL last year averaging less than 17 ppg.

CINCY...Sanchez was 12 of 15 for 182 yards, 1 TD pass, 139.4 QB rating. Great game, but Sanchez was not asked to carry the team and face it, Cincy was injured and had NO HEART at the end of the year. This is a team that had ONLY won 3 of their previous 7 games and those wins were against Cleveland, Detroit, and KC...the bottom of the barrel. But Sanchez did play great that game.

SD...Sanchez sucked this game. 12 of 23 for 100 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 60.1 QB rating. If the Jets were to advance based on Sanchez play it would be the end of the road.

INDY...Sanchez mediocre at best this game. 17 of 30 for 252 yards, 2 TD, 1 int, 93.3 QB rating. However, this is one of those games when stats lie. His stats are deceptive for 2 reasons.

The first being a 80 yard TD pass to Edwards. Sanchez stats were padded by one play...a piss-poor play by the Colts undrafted rookie DB (Jacob Lacey). This was just pathetic coverage by Lacey. This was a play where Lacey was looking in the backfield trying to read Sanchez eyes instead of sticking with Edwards, bit on a slant and lost his balance. A big-time rookie mistake looking to make a big-time play instead of playing smart. The only starting QB that doesn't make that throw is Jamarcus Russell who would have fumbled the ball before he could throw it, I am sure. Edwards had to slow down and wait for the ball while it was in the air. This one play really helped INFLATE Sanchez' numbers. Otherwise he was, 16 of 29 for 172 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 69.89 QB rating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS1lhXKwbgw&feature=related

The second is with the game on the line in the 2nd half the Jets got completely SHUT OUT!!! In fact, Sanchez 2nd half numbers were PATHETIC...12 of 21 for 135 yards, 1 int, 56.64 QB rating. Even worse is Sanchez built up his QB rating the final 1:06 seconds when the Jets got the ball at their own 10 yard line. The colts went into a deep coverage, prevent defense and Sanchez was able to throw 4 dink passes for 45 yards. Totally meaningless. So with the game on the line in the 2nd half Sanchez real numbers were 8 of 17 for 90 yards, 1 int, 38.84 QB rating.

You can group these numbers together and try and make it look like he had a really good postseason, but when they are taken in their true context Sanchez was anything but good in the postseason other than playing against a pathetic, injured, gutless Bengal team in the Wild Card game.

Who cares if he was asked to carry the team or not? henne was never expected to carry Miami. What difference does it make? So b/c he didn't "carry" us to playoff wins it doesn't count that he played his best football?

How did he suck against SD and Indy/ if he sucked there's no way we beat a team as good as SD on the road and there's no way we lead Indy on the road in the 2nd half of the title game if sanchez sucked.

You can look at stats all you want but Sanchez made plays to win at SD, I suggest you go watch a tape of the game then get back to me.



So stats lie when he has good #s but when he makes plays to win and his stats aren't great then stats tell the truth?:crazy:

Yeah, it was just all the Colts DB. Sanchez didn't give a great fake and freeze one of the best pass rushers in the game to buy time to get that ball to Edwards.


So when Indy goes into prevent and Sanchez gets some #s it doesn't count but when the same happens to henne that shows how great henne is:lol2: Our O began to struggle when we lost Shonn Greene on the first drive of the 2nd half, we had no threat of a running game and we struggled. He was a ROOKIE QB. What he did in postseason was damn impressive.

 

[DuderinoN703]

How did he suck against SD and Indy/ if he sucked there's no way we beat a team as good as SD on the road and there's no way we lead Indy on the road in the 2nd half of the title game if sanchez sucked.

He didn't suck at SD but his stats were average and expected for a rookie QB. The Jets won that game b/c of their defense and rushing attack. They punted 8 times in the game including on all six first half possessions.

 

[nyjunc]

Well, that's apparent. You obviously don't care about trifling things like actually being right, either.



Yes, Rick Mirer and Vinny Testeverde DID have pressure on them. Obviously Vinny could handle it. Rick could not. One threw a million passes in the NFL. The other did not. Coincidence? Now, Ray Lucas on the other hand, he really did take over the team when all had been lost. That's a situation where the pressure was lessened significantly.

But this attempt by you to say that there was no pressure on Henne to perform when he took over for Pennington halfway through the 3rd game of the season is ABSURD.



Nice straw man. I guess you must love to dance. So now that it's obvious that Henne did not have his WORST performances in those three games, you have to make yourself look better by pretending that I said they were his BEST performances.

Except here's the difference between us. You actually stated that Henne had his worst performances in those last three games. I never said that he had his best performances in those three games.

Do you actually think you sound smart, when you argue? Because you're doing a very poor job of it. You sound emotional and desperate, latching onto flimsy assertions and "facts" that turn out to be complete fiction, and when pressed you have to completely disfigure what anyone says to you in order to try and give some semblance (really in your own mind, because nobody else is buying it) of you looking better.

It's kind of sad. I thought I remembered you being a lot more rational than this. You must have hung out here too long.

I know I am right, you guys are just making excuses for your QB.
You guys can fool yourselves all you want but the man walked in w/ zero pressure and the first time he faced reall pressure to win in december he struggled.

Vinny led us to an 0-4 start in '03- how did he handle it?
Mirer didn't buckle under any pressure, no one expected him to be Vinny '98- he was just a terrible QB.

Exactly, Lucas took over when all was lost just like henne then when we needed a couple of wins he performed poorly against Indy and NYG then w/ the pressure off again at 4-8 he won his last 4 starts. Excellent comparison.

Maybe his worst starts of the season is a bit of an exagerration but if they weren't his worst they were right near the top for worst performances by him all year.


I don't care if you think I sound samrt, you are being a homer defending your QB. I am being objective. I never said henne sucks, I have said he had a good 1st year and I think he'll be good but the facts are he came in w/ no pressure in September and when the games were biggest for Miami he played poorly. You can rationalize it any way you want to but the bottom line is Sanchez played his best in our biggest games and henne didn't in Miami's biggest games.

So based on statistics you call it a season if you a start 0-3?

If ou start 0-3 there is more pressure to perform because you can't afford to lose any more.

Junc, please stop the ridiculous talk of Sanchez being so important in the big games for the Jets. He was along for the ride, nothing more.

0-3 the season is over but only a handful of teams have ever started 0-3 and made the playoffs add to that you lost your starting QB, anyone who EXPECTED Henne to step in and lead you to postseason was asking too much.

You obviously didn't watch the playoff games if you think he was just along for the ride.

Yet Miami's defense blew leads(or put us in the hole) nearly every single week. Yet Henne was able to win games or close the gap. Thats with virtually little or nothing to work with on offense.

Had the Jets not made the playoffs, this wouldnt even be a question. Yet, Jets fans(like you are doing right now) argue that Sanchez is the better QB because of it. The stats have been listed, the scores have been listed, the schedule listed, injury reports listed, history of teams listed, and all of it ignored. Crowing over completing 12 passes per playoff games against teams that fell apart at the end of the season and the most accurate kicker in NFL history missing 3 kicks, is just as silly as us being appreciative that Henne closed a 27 point gap to being down by 1 score. Lauding over Sanchez having 1 more regular season win then Henne, while playing 2 teams that just laid down(creating enough of an game balance issue that the NFL literally worked on ways to fix it) is just as silly as us noting our defense's collapse during the final 3 games.

With the logic that has been argued, how Henne "played at his worst when it mattered" i suppose it could be said that Mark Sanchez is a better QB then Aaron Rodgers, Kurt Warner, Phillip Rivers, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, Tom Brady and Donovan McNabb. I mean, all those guys did was produce better stats, but they didn't get as far as Sanchez did in the playoffs(therefore, obviously, not playing well enough).
I do take comfort in the fact that Curtis Painter and Mark Brunell are better then Sanchez. Stats and how they were used on their team don't matter, but they did win their respective Title games.

Why is it when sanchez closes the gap and the D blows it sanchez sucks but when henne does it he's great?

I love the excuses knocking Cincy and SD(one of the kicks he missed was a 57 yarder). Do you apply that same thinking to the AFC Title Game loss? Our kicker missed 2 of 3 kicks or does it only count if our opponents kicker misses a kick?


This is where reading comprehension comes into play. I never said Sanchez was better, I have stated over and over and over that henne had a better overall year but I also stated a fact that in their teams biggest agmes Sanchez came through and henne didn't. I'm sorry the truth offends you.

First you tried to blame Henne for putting the Phins in bad spots defensively by giving the opponents the ball in good FP (which you still haven't responded to given I showed stats that told the opposite story). Now it's Henne not being able to put the points on the board. Keep in mind the Phins lost by 3, 7, and 6. When your defense gives up 27.5 points a game in three consecutive games at the end of the year, how successful would any QB not Manning or Brady be?

and I never aid it was all on Henne, I have stated over and over and over again that the D deserves its share of the blame(why does this always get ignored?) but in losing those close games don't think doing a better job in the first half could have helped them win those games?

He didn't suck at SD but his stats were average and expected for a rookie QB. The Jets won that game b/c of their defense and rushing attack. They punted 8 times in the game including on all six first half possessions.

He was alot better and more important than his #s. Watch the game when they replay it on NFL network.

 

[ckparrothead]

I know I am right, you guys are just making excuses for your QB.
You guys can fool yourselves all you want but the man walked in w/ zero pressure and the first time he faced reall pressure to win in december he struggled.

Vinny led us to an 0-4 start in '03- how did he handle it?
Mirer didn't buckle under any pressure, no one expected him to be Vinny '98- he was just a terrible QB.

Exactly, Lucas took over when all was lost just like henne then when we needed a couple of wins he performed poorly against Indy and NYG then w/ the pressure off again at 4-8 he won his last 4 starts. Excellent comparison.

Maybe his worst starts of the season is a bit of an exagerration but if they weren't his worst they were right near the top for worst performances by him all year.


I don't care if you think I sound samrt, you are being a homer defending your QB. I am being objective. I never said henne sucks, I have said he had a good 1st year and I think he'll be good but the facts are he came in w/ no pressure in September and when the games were biggest for Miami he played poorly. You can rationalize it any way you want to but the bottom line is Sanchez played his best in our biggest games and henne didn't in Miami's biggest games.

Wow, it's amazing but you're actually not even worth arguing with. You're that 'special'. Kudos. Not many people on that list.

 

[Joneildu]

Love how he brazenly skips over posts he can't argue with.

 

[nyjunc]

Wow, it's amazing but you're actually not even worth arguing with. You're that 'special'. Kudos. Not many people on that list.

What exactly are you bringing to this dicussion other than just criticizing me for my opinion? All you are doing is being a homer and faulting your D instead of giving Henne any blame.

Love how he brazenly skips over posts he can't argue with.

Show me where I have done that? I have 50 people responding to me and if I did miss something it was unintentional.

 

[DuderinoN703]

and I never aid it was all on Henne, I have stated over and over and over again that the D deserves its share of the blame(why does this always get ignored?) but in losing those close games don't think doing a better job in the first half could have helped them win those games?

He was alot better and more important than his #s. Watch the game when they replay it on NFL network.

Ignored? I'm the one putting the blame on the defense for the three losses at the end of the year. I mean the Phins were down big in Tennessee but came back and then the defense blew it in overtime. Against the Steelers, Thigpen had a chance to win the game but threw a pick in the end zone.

Playing poorly in the first half is one thing. If your defense is worth a damn then they'd keep you in the game no matter how the offense is playing. Going down 21-0 at home in the first quarter is awful no matter how you slice it.

I understand you don't like to look at stats as a barometer of how a player is playing. But to me there is no other way to judge a player then to do just that. You say Sanchez was a lot better and more important than his numbers indicated......

A lot better at what? The spiral of his passes? How gently he grabbed his crotch to adjust the jockstrap? How loud his snap counts were? It's always about the numbers. The numbers are the game.

 

[Tunaphish429]

Sanchez was better last year...

No doubt in my mind...

But not by much....

I think overall Henne is a better prospect..

Sanchez already has injury concerns..Not good for a qb...

one of Sanchez's best attributes is his mobility...

I know that he has had some knee problems...Minor of course but that could be something to look for in the upcoming years...

Our D was the reason we lost alot of games last year...Not Henne..

Henne played well in some big game and played poor in some other games..

Pressure on him meant nothing IMO...

 

[nyjunc]

Ignored? I'm the one putting the blame on the defense for the three losses at the end of the year. I mean the Phins were down big in Tennessee but came back and then the defense blew it in overtime. Against the Steelers, Thigpen had a chance to win the game but threw a pick in the end zone.

Playing poorly in the first half is one thing. If your defense is worth a damn then they'd keep you in the game no matter how the offense is playing. Going down 21-0 at home in the first quarter is awful no matter how you slice it.

I understand you don't like to look at stats as a barometer of how a player is playing. But to me there is no other way to judge a player then to do just that. You say Sanchez was a lot better and more important than his numbers indicated......

A lot better at what? The spiral of his passes? How gently he grabbed his crotch to adjust the jockstrap? How loud his snap counts were? It's always about the numbers. The numbers are the game.

So the D threw 3 INTs against ten including the one in OT to set up the game losing FG?

As bad as your D was playing the O is allowed to score and your O was not scoring.

In specific Snachez made a huge 3rd down throw to Cotch that set up a punt that pinned at SD at their 4, that doesn't look sexy in the boxscore but w/o that throw we are punting from our 23 instead of from our 45. On SD's next possession we picked off Rivers and set up our 1st TD, a tremdnous thorw by sanchez as he was getting hammered by an SD defender. In the boxscore it's a 2 yard TD- no big deal but he hung in there taking as huge shot and made a great throw to give us a 10-7 lead. If we kick the FG we are down 7-6,m that was a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE swing in that game.

Another huge play was a 3rd and 4 to Cotch, he placed the ball where only Cotch could catch it. Any other position and the ball is picked. That 3rd down conversion came one play before Greene's 47 yd TD run to break it open.

Boxscores and stats tell us alot but it doesn't give us the whole story. I think he played better in SD than Indy though stats tell us otherwise.

 

[34miami23]

So the D threw 3 INTs against ten including the one in OT to set up the game losing FG?

As bad as your D was playing the O is allowed to score and your O was not scoring.

In specific Snachez made a huge 3rd down throw to Cotch that set up a punt that pinned at SD at their 4, that doesn't look sexy in the boxscore but w/o that throw we are punting from our 23 instead of from our 45. On SD's next possession we picked off Rivers and set up our 1st TD, a tremdnous thorw by sanchez as he was getting hammered by an SD defender. In the boxscore it's a 2 yard TD- no big deal but he hung in there taking as huge shot and made a great throw to give us a 10-7 lead. If we kick the FG we are down 7-6,m that was a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE swing in that game.

Another huge play was a 3rd and 4 to Cotch, he placed the ball where only Cotch could catch it. Any other position and the ball is picked. That 3rd down conversion came one play before Greene's 47 yd TD run to break it open.

Boxscores and stats tell us alot but it doesn't give us the whole story. I think he played better in SD than Indy though stats tell us otherwise.

So going by your logic ... Henne wasn't under any pressure because he came to a team that was 0-3

Does that absolve Sanchez of being "under pressure" after his 5-pick games and the loss to the Falcons to which even Rex Ryan said himself that the Jets were eliminated?

 

[nyjunc]

So going by your logic ... Henne wasn't under any pressure because he came to a team that was 0-3

Does that absolve Sanchez of being "under pressure" after his 5-pick games and the loss to the Falcons to which even Rex Ryan said himself that the Jets were eliminated?

The difference is Sanchez particpated in those games and he played poorly. Henne didn't start any of the first 3 games, he came in w/ a clean slate. I think we were kind of playing w/ house money in postseason and that could have helped Sanchez.

 

[Spesh]

Why is it when sanchez closes the gap and the D blows it sanchez sucks but when henne does it he's great?

I love the excuses knocking Cincy and SD(one of the kicks he missed was a 57 yarder). Do you apply that same thinking to the AFC Title Game loss? Our kicker missed 2 of 3 kicks or does it only count if our opponents kicker misses a kick?

This is where reading comprehension comes into play. I never said Sanchez was better, I have stated over and over and over that henne had a better overall year but I also stated a fact that in their teams biggest agmes Sanchez came through and henne didn't. I'm sorry the truth offends you.

Because the times your D blew it(blew it being relative, as im sure all dolfans would have perfered only giving up less then 3 touchdowns instead of 4-5 on a weekly basis), your team lost. Henne went out and won some of those games(as the Jets saw first hand, after we gave up 52 combined points), kept us in contention despite lacking the weapons. Meanwhile, Sanchez is handed a talented team and squeezed into the playoffs by the good will of others, while clinging to the back of a tough D and loaded run game. When other aspects of your team needed help, he didn't provide it.

Id be alot more sympathetic had you needed only 1 of those field goals to tie it, not make all 3 field goals plus a touchdown. Regardless, you won those games, and thats all that matters...yet id be remiss not to point out that you won them because you asked Sanchez to take the backseat. The minute your defense struggled in the playoffs, it was over.

If i recall correctly, your coach believed that you were "mathematically eliminated" after you lost to the Falcons. So Ryan, your coach, believed that you absolutely must win against the Falcons. The Jets lost 10-7, with Sanchez throwing 3 picks, including one on the final drive of the game. How is that coming through when you need it? Was that not considered a big game? Then again, this is a QB that went 2-4 in the division...though those aren't big games at all.
I'll certainly work on my reading comprehension, the minute you work on that "common sense" thing you seem to be lacking.

 

[nyjunc]

Because the times your D blew it(blew it being relative, as im sure all dolfans would have perfered only giving up less then 3 touchdowns instead of 4-5 on a weekly basis), your team lost. Henne went out and won some of those games(as the Jets saw first hand, after we gave up 52 combined points), kept us in contention despite lacking the weapons. Meanwhile, Sanchez is handed a talented team and squeezed into the playoffs by the good will of others, while clinging to the back of a tough D and loaded run game. When other aspects of your team needed help, he didn't provide it.

Id be alot more sympathetic had you needed only 1 of those field goals to tie it, not make all 3 field goals plus a touchdown. Regardless, you won those games, and thats all that matters...yet id be remiss not to point out that you won them because you asked Sanchez to take the backseat. The minute your defense struggled in the playoffs, it was over.

If i recall correctly, your coach believed that you were "mathematically eliminated" after you lost to the Falcons. So Ryan, your coach, believed that you absolutely must win against the Falcons. The Jets lost 10-7, with Sanchez throwing 3 picks, including one on the final drive of the game. How is that coming through when you need it? Was that not considered a big game? Then again, this is a QB that went 2-4 in the division...though those aren't big games at all.
I'll certainly work on my reading comprehension, the minute you work on that "common sense" thing you seem to be lacking.

The problem is we are discussing the final 3 games for Miami, 3 games Miami lost after trailing big.

The team around Sanchez choked away a playoff spot in 2008 while the team around henne won the division.

We missed a FG on the first drive, we eventuall led 17-6, 20-6 is a big difference. Then up 17-13 we missed and set up Indy in great FP so instead of beimg up a TD we were soon trailing by 3 but b/c we missed FGs it doesnt' count, it only counts if our opponents miss FGs.

The biggest games we played were all in January and Sanchez played his best football.