Merged X12: Ongoing Henne vs. Sanchez Debate...

[DuderinoN703]

In all honestly it has been proven that it is pointless arguing with junc. You can present any fact that you will and he will either ignore it or twist it around. Whether he believes it or not shouldn't really matter to us Dolphin fans. So if this upcoming season Henne is having a better statistical season then Sanchez then he will say that should be expected for someone who sat on the bench for a year and learned while poor sanchez was thrown to the wolves.

He has a built in excuse for anything we say. People say he brings good info to an argument but I have yet to see it. Any time he is part of a conversation is to say or imply how great Sanchez and the Jets are and how Henne and the Dolphins played horrible. I like good arguments that go back and forth and admit when they aren't seeing something but not this guy. He won't back down from anything no matter how foolish it sounds.

I've said it plenty of times already THIS season will be the telling time to BOTH qbs. This season both teams have down what they needed to in order to give their quarterbacks weapons. What and how they perform this season will be a telling sign in this debate.

True enough. The Phins could win the SB this year and it'd be because of this and because of that. Nevermind that you still have to win the game regardless.

 

[burger13]

He's acting like henne did something special in that game and sanchez did nothing. Miami had one offensive TD drive, started at theMiami 33 and scored after fumbling in which the Jets recovered yet they gave it back to Miami. Henne had the benefit of 3 non offensive Tds yet squeaked out a W. The situations were nothing alike.

actually, I'm just arguing against the opposite view: according to Jests fans, yourself included: Sanchez was great against the Chargers, and the Jets completely dominated Miami in that game.....

truth is that each were pretty average performances.

 

[nyjunc]

The losses i pointed out and have been discussing have happened between week 4 and the Title game. And the Atlanta game happened in late December, so certain games that you have to win can be totally ignored because they happened on the 20th instead of the 3rd? Ironic, its unacceptable for Henne to struggle on the December 20th, yet for Sanchez its fine on the same exact day.

Henne did indeed get a playoff team...well, most of one. He got the discount version, or the playoff dolphins-lite. Diet Dolphins maybe? Anyways, the minute he got handed the keys, parts starting falling off as injuries built up. Even then, he fought us out of bottom of the league and got us within spitting distance of a playoff berth.

Fair enough, you missed some field goals. So what your saying is, your special teams struggled. You needed someone to close the game. Someone in a position of immediate influence to that game that could tip the balance and cover up for the struggles of his teamates. And he didnt. And the game was lost. Interesting, i wonder if there was any pressure that the person could have overcame to achieve victory.

I get the moral of the story: when the New York Jets are firing on all cylinders, Mark Sanchez plays his best football. When the team struggles, Sanchez plays his worst football. To me, its more pressure filled when your team is in adverse situations, not merely what week on a calender it happens to be. Mark Sanchez happened to be good when it was convenient.

Did Sanchez have 3 in a row like henne? Once we had destiny in our own hands did mark throw away any games?

of course a QB can have a bad game but when you compound it by putting back to back bad games together you start to have a problem.


Sanchez lost key guys as well- he lost a huge playmaker in leon, he didn't get braylon until game 5, he lost cotch for a game and he was playing hurt many other games, greene had injury problems, we lost kris Jenkins for the year, we had a revovling door at the corner opposite Revis. Let's not act like it was smooth sailing for us.

In all honestly it has been proven that it is pointless arguing with junc. You can present any fact that you will and he will either ignore it or twist it around. Whether he believes it or not shouldn't really matter to us Dolphin fans. So if this upcoming season Henne is having a better statistical season then Sanchez then he will say that should be expected for someone who sat on the bench for a year and learned while poor sanchez was thrown to the wolves.

He has a built in excuse for anything we say. People say he brings good info to an argument but I have yet to see it. Any time he is part of a conversation is to say or imply how great Sanchez and the Jets are and how Henne and the Dolphins played horrible. I like good arguments that go back and forth and admit when they aren't seeing something but not this guy. He won't back down from anything no matter how foolish it sounds.

I've said it plenty of times already THIS season will be the telling time to BOTH qbs. This season both teams have down what they needed to in order to give their quarterbacks weapons. What and how they perform this season will be a telling sign in this debate.

Do you ever nring anything to a discussion?

what does that matter...was Henne aided by a rushing game?

Henne played against a self-professed great defense and produced better than Sanchez did against an average defense, with the aid of a dominating run game....

yet that still somehow adds up to Henne being completely owned.....and Sanchez playing his best football in the most important game.

go figure...

Now we see the lack of running game excuse

actually, I'm just arguing against the opposite view: according to Jests fans, yourself included: Sanchez was great against the Chargers, and the Jets completely dominated Miami in that game.....

truth is that each were pretty average performances.

Show me where I said Sanchez was great against SD? I said he made big plays for su that we needed to win that game and that he played much better than the #s show.

 

[34miami23]

Also, another interesting point to make is that Henne's numbers might be a little different if he wasn't being rotated in and out from the wildcat - particularly in the redzone.

One aspect of it that I don't like is that it puts him in a bad position if it doesn't go well. It breaks his rhythm and often requires him to come in an obvious passing situation.

Weighing the good with the bad, I love the Wildcat, but if we are going to throw stats around, let's keep that in mind too.

Miami did have the number 1 rushing offense in the league before the Jets did as well earlier in the year.

 

[nyjunc]

Also, another interesting point to make is that Henne's numbers might be a little different if he wasn't being rotated in and out from the wildcat - particularly in the redzone.

One aspect of it that I don't like is that it puts him in a bad position if it doesn't go well. It breaks his rhythm and often requires him to come in an obvious passing situation.

Weighing the good with the bad, I love the Wildcat, but if we are going to throw stats around, let's keep that in mind too.

Miami did have the number 1 rushing offense in the league before the Jets did as well earlier in the year.

We run wildcat plays too, not as much but we run them and you had the #1 rush team early in the year, we took over early on and never let it go. We were #1 when Ronnie went down though obviously your #s would have been better had he stayed healthy.

 

[DuderinoN703]

Did Sanchez have 3 in a row like henne? Once we had destiny in our own hands did mark throw away any games?

of course a QB can have a bad game but when you compound it by putting back to back bad games together you start to have a problem.


Sanchez lost key guys as well- he lost a huge playmaker in leon, he didn't get braylon until game 5, he lost cotch for a game and he was playing hurt many other games, greene had injury problems, we lost kris Jenkins for the year, we had a revovling door at the corner opposite Revis. Let's not act like it was smooth sailing for us.




Do you ever nring anything to a discussion?



Now we see the lack of running game excuse



Show me where I said Sanchez was great against SD? I said he made big plays for su that we needed to win that game and that he played much better than the #s show.

Henne had one poor game out of the last three. The others were average to decent (first half vs PIT). You've said before to take a bad game or two away from Sanchez and his numbers are better. You could apply that same logic to anyone on any team too.

 

[burger13]

Now we see the lack of running game excuse



Show me where I said Sanchez was great against SD? I said he made big plays for su that we needed to win that game and that he played much better than the #s show.

dude, I didn't bring the excuses to the table....note it was in direct response to your '3 non-offensive touchdowns' EXCUSE. so we can compare the games with or without the excuses...but note that a strong running game is going to help a quarterbacks performance (which is what I was trying to discuss) than non-offensive touchdowns.

The biggest games we played were all in January and Sanchez played his best football.

What he did in postseason was damn impressive.

Sanchez played his best in our biggest games

I think he played better in SD than Indy

NYJ's 3 biggest games: playoffs @ Cincy, @ SD, @ Indy

so let me try and put all of this together....he was playing his best football in those three games, and the SD game was better than the Indy game, but you aren't saying tha the was great in the SD game. so at his best, he was only at most, great in 1 football game all year (the CIN playoff game). and that was damn impressive to you.

...looks like you have a real gem on your hands!

 

[Spesh]

Did Sanchez have 3 in a row like henne? Once we had destiny in our own hands did mark throw away any games?

of course a QB can have a bad game but when you compound it by putting back to back bad games together you start to have a problem.

Sanchez lost key guys as well- he lost a huge playmaker in leon, he didn't get braylon until game 5, he lost cotch for a game and he was playing hurt many other games, greene had injury problems, we lost kris Jenkins for the year, we had a revovling door at the corner opposite Revis. Let's not act like it was smooth sailing for us.

During the Falcons game he threw a pick while trying to win the game. I recall with great detail during the second Miami vs Jets game Mark had a chance to win the game and overthrew his receivers. Still remember the Bills game when he threw a pick in overtime(not to be outdone by your punter, i suppose). Multiple times during the season he had a chance to win with the game in his hands, and quite literally threw them away.

And Sanchez did indeed have 3 games in a row where he played miserably: weeks 4-6, 1-8 td/int ratio, 429 yards, passer ratings of 51.9, 50, and 34.5.

Henne might not have pulled off the wins the last 3 weeks, but he certainly dug us out of holes and gave us a chance. Our defense was giving up close to 30 points. During the Jets "must win" game at the end of the season, your defense gave up 10 points.

The Jets lost a few players, but were in better position the dropoff wasn't as drastic. Miami has been a less talented team to begin with, losing key positions(QB, RB, LG, C, DT, the only non-rookie CB, RB/KR) was much more devastating because we didnt have more talent surrounding it.
I understand your grasping at straws to support your caretaker. Yet when the game is in Sanchez's hands, he folded. Consistently. When that smash mouth ground game is running hard, when that offensive line opens up holes you can drive a truck through, when your defense is smothering, when your special teams is kicking everything through the uprights from any part of the field, Sanchez has does a great job. When they "struggle"(especially defense, though again, it hardly looks like struggling in comparison) and its up to Sanchez to pull it out...it hasn't happened.

Mnphinfan linked a brilliant write up from Phinsider.com at the beginning of the thread. Ill post it again for those that don't feel like fighting through 9 pages:

Some numbers to consider beside Henne leading in Int's, completions %, and QB rating.
Number of 300 yds games career
Henne: 3 Sanchez 0
Number of games with 20 or more completions:
Henne 5 Sanchez 1
Number of TD passes in the fourth quarter of a win.
Henne 3 Sanchez 0
Number of 4th quarter game winning drives…as in led the team to a TD or FG which gave them a lead in the 4th quarter which held up and won the game.
Henne 4 Sanchez 0
Chad Henne has 7 career wins in 13 NFL starts
Mark Sanchez has 10 – in 18 NFL starts (including playoffs)
You can argue, with out a lot of difficulty, that Henne “won” four of his seven Dolphin victories by doing the things you want a quarterback to do. Move the ball in the fourth quarter and create points when you need them.
The Jets did not win a single game on Mark Sanchez’s arm. In their 10 wins whith him under center he passed for over 200 yds once…that was on opening day. In five of his 10 wins Sanchez passed for under 150 yds. In his We all know about the 20 ints, but 18 starts last year Sanchez had fewer than 15 completions 12 times.
Handing the ball off 40 times a game is not the measure of a great quarterback.
Winning games in the fourth quarter with your arm is.

 

[jetsattack]

what does that matter...was Henne aided by a rushing game?

Henne played against a self-professed great defense and produced better than Sanchez did against an average defense, with the aid of a dominating run game....

yet that still somehow adds up to Henne being completely owned.....and Sanchez playing his best football in the most important game.

go figure...

maybe, in your eyes, henne's most important game last year was the one against the jets.....but for the jets the most important games happened after the fins flunked on the season. thats where this conversation is getting screwed up it seems. you fins fans act like the fins/jets games were superbowl wins for you guys.

 

[AdamD13]

Who cares if he was asked to carry the team or not? henne was never expected to carry Miami. What difference does it make? So b/c he didn't "carry" us to playoff wins it doesn't count that he played his best football?

How did he suck against SD and Indy/ if he sucked there's no way we beat a team as good as SD on the road and there's no way we lead Indy on the road in the 2nd half of the title game if sanchez sucked.

You can look at stats all you want but Sanchez made plays to win at SD, I suggest you go watch a tape of the game then get back to me.



So stats lie when he has good #s but when he makes plays to win and his stats aren't great then stats tell the truth?:crazy:

Yeah, it was just all the Colts DB. Sanchez didn't give a great fake and freeze one of the best pass rushers in the game to buy time to get that ball to Edwards.


So when Indy goes into prevent and Sanchez gets some #s it doesn't count but when the same happens to henne that shows how great henne is:lol2: Our O began to struggle when we lost Shonn Greene on the first drive of the 2nd half, we had no threat of a running game and we struggled. He was a ROOKIE QB. What he did in postseason was damn impressive.

Perhaps the weakest response I have ever had to a post. Do you really want me to blow smoke up your butt and say Sanchez played well against SD and INDY? You think 17 points in back-to-back games is good? You want me to go and watch the SD game again? WTF...You really think I will be impressed by a QB that amassed 100 yards on 23 throws for a 4.3 yards per attempt (YPA) by watching the game again? Why don't you go watch the game again without your rose colored glasses on? The lowest YPA by a starting QB last year was J Russell and B Quinn at 5.23 YPA and you honestly think I will be impressed by a QB with a 4.3 YPA? Please...

You made the point yourself without a running back Sanchez is SHUT DOWN!!! ZERO points as soon as Green got hurt. Sanchez was a JOKE last year. He was the beneficiary of the #1 running game and #1 defense. Put Sanchez on the Lions and he is lucky to win a game. Let's compare Sanchez numbers with Stafford (QB of a 2-14 team)...

Sanchez...53.8% completion, 12 TD, 20 INT, 10 fumbles, 3 lost fumbles

Stafford...61% completion, 13 TD, 20 INT, 4 fumbles, 1 lost fumble

Face it, Sanchez was a DISASTER last year who is extremely careless with the football. Put a decent QB on the Jets last year and your team may have won 14 games last year and make it to and perhaps win the Super Bowl. Sanchez gives new meaning to the word OVERRATED.

 

[nyjunc]

Henne had one poor game out of the last three. The others were average to decent (first half vs PIT). You've said before to take a bad game or two away from Sanchez and his numbers are better. You could apply that same logic to anyone on any team too.

I'll take away Pitt since he left early and the game didn't matter anyway but when Miami controled their own destiny(Ten, Hou) he led his offenses to a total of 9 pts in the first halves of those games. There's more blame to go around than just the QB but the QB and the O did NOT do enough to win those games.

Sanchez's bad games were spread out, he had about one a month. In Miami's biggest games Henne had multiple poor outings.

dude, I didn't bring the excuses to the table....note it was in direct response to your '3 non-offensive touchdowns' EXCUSE. so we can compare the games with or without the excuses...but note that a strong running game is going to help a quarterbacks performance (which is what I was trying to discuss) than non-offensive touchdowns.



so let me try and put all of this together....he was playing his best football in those three games, and the SD game was better than the Indy game, but you aren't saying tha the was great in the SD game. so at his best, he was only at most, great in 1 football game all year (the CIN playoff game). and that was damn impressive to you.

...looks like you have a real gem on your hands!

Are we adults? Do I really need to explain this to you? First show me where I said Sanchez was GREAT in postseason? he wasn't but he played his best football and the best football of ANY rookie QB in NFL history. You guys treat Sanchez like he was a 10 year vet and forget he was a rookie. It really isn't this difficult to understand.

During the Falcons game he threw a pick while trying to win the game. I recall with great detail during the second Miami vs Jets game Mark had a chance to win the game and overthrew his receivers. Still remember the Bills game when he threw a pick in overtime(not to be outdone by your punter, i suppose). Multiple times during the season he had a chance to win with the game in his hands, and quite literally threw them away.

And Sanchez did indeed have 3 games in a row where he played miserably: weeks 4-6, 1-8 td/int ratio, 429 yards, passer ratings of 51.9, 50, and 34.5.

Henne might not have pulled off the wins the last 3 weeks, but he certainly dug us out of holes and gave us a chance. Our defense was giving up close to 30 points. During the Jets "must win" game at the end of the season, your defense gave up 10 points.

The Jets lost a few players, but were in better position the dropoff wasn't as drastic. Miami has been a less talented team to begin with, losing key positions(QB, RB, LG, C, DT, the only non-rookie CB, RB/KR) was much more devastating because we didnt have more talent surrounding it.
I understand your grasping at straws to support your caretaker. Yet when the game is in Sanchez's hands, he folded. Consistently. When that smash mouth ground game is running hard, when that offensive line opens up holes you can drive a truck through, when your defense is smothering, when your special teams is kicking everything through the uprights from any part of the field, Sanchez has does a great job. When they "struggle"(especially defense, though again, it hardly looks like struggling in comparison) and its up to Sanchez to pull it out...it hasn't happened.

Mnphinfan linked a brilliant write up from Phinsider.com at the beginning of the thread. Ill post it again for those that don't feel like fighting through 9 pages:

he did throw an INT w/ the game on the line vs. Atlanta, our D also allowed Atlanata to march down the field and score the go ahead TD in the final minutes.

Against Miami he led us to 25 pts, that should have been more than enough to win. he played very well.

He was dreadful against buffalo, he cost us that Bills game as well as NO and the 2nd NE game. It happens, he was a rookie. Thankfully he always bounced back and the switched turned on in postseason.


henne dug you out of holes that he helped put you in and you don't get bonus points for almost doing something. The bottom line is w/ the playoffs on the line in your control he couldn't lead you to any wins.


I argue the Jets have been more talented but that always gets shot down on here then it's used as an excuse when things don't go right.


Brilliant write up:lol2: all that does is bring up meaningless stats, again if sanchez threw as much as Henne he would have had more yards and TDs. The important stat was coming through when their teams needed them most- sanchez 2-1, henne 0-2.

 

[nyjunc]

Perhaps the weakest response I have ever had to a post. Do you really want me to blow smoke up your butt and say Sanchez played well against SD and INDY? You think 17 points in back-to-back games is good? You want me to go and watch the SD game again? WTF...You really think I will be impressed by a QB that amassed 100 yards on 23 throws for a 4.3 yards per attempt (YPA) by watching the game again? Why don't you go watch the game again without your rose colored glasses on? The lowest YPA by a starting QB last year was J Russell and B Quinn at 5.23 YPA and you honestly think I will be impressed by a QB with a 4.3 YPA? Please...

You made the point yourself without a running back Sanchez is SHUT DOWN!!! ZERO points as soon as Green got hurt. Sanchez was a JOKE last year. He was the beneficiary of the #1 running game and #1 defense. Put Sanchez on the Lions and he is lucky to win a game. Let's compare Sanchez numbers with Stafford (QB of a 2-14 team)...

Sanchez...53.8% completion, 12 TD, 20 INT, 10 fumbles, 3 lost fumbles

Stafford...61% completion, 13 TD, 20 INT, 4 fumbles, 1 lost fumble

Face it, Sanchez was a DISASTER last year who is extremely careless with the football. Put a decent QB on the Jets last year and your team may have won 14 games last year and make it to and perhaps win the Super Bowl. Sanchez gives new meaning to the word OVERRATED.

If you know anything about football you'd understand he played well in both games. It's funny how you guys are going nuts over henne putting up 20 pts in garbage time against houston but sanchez leading us to 17 and the win on the road against the hottest team in the league is not impressive.

You can look at stats all you want, yopu can have those garbage time 300 yd games and I'll take 100-150 and making plays to WIN games. The game is not about stats, it's about winning.

A rookie QB losing his running game on the road in the AFC Title Game is a big deal. Again, you guys treat sanchez like he is a 10 year vet, he was a ROOKIE!

#s aren't black and white, sanchez's INT totals were high b/c he had a few disastrous games while Stafford was consistently throwing INTs. Stafford went 2 games w/o throwing an INT, Sanchez 7. Sanchez had 5 multiple INT games, Stafford 6(in 5 less games).

So please stop w/ the nonsense about sanchez being bad, he had a good ROOKIE year and he stepped up when we needed him most making plays and playing his best in postseason. You can throw out all the stats you want but we were less than 30 mins from the SB, a year earlier w/ a future HOF QB in a weak division w/ a weak sched we didn't even make the playoffs.

 

[burger13]

maybe, in your eyes, henne's most important game last year was the one against the jets.....but for the jets the most important games happened after the fins flunked on the season. thats where this conversation is getting screwed up it seems. you fins fans act like the fins/jets games were superbowl wins for you guys.

never said that was his most important game....that's not why I made the comparison.

their production in each of those games were VERY similar, with the slight advantage going to Henne. Yet I have heard repeatedly for months how completely dominated the entire Dolphins offense was in that Jets game....and how awesome Sanchez was in the SD game.....something just doesn't add up there.

I never acted like nor implied that the games were of equal importance.

 

[nyjunc]

never said that was his most important game....that's not why I made the comparison.

their production in each of those games were VERY similar, with the slight advantage going to Henne. Yet I have heard repeatedly for months how completely dominated the entire Dolphins offense was in that Jets game....and how awesome Sanchez was in the SD game.....something just doesn't add up there.

I never acted like nor implied that the games were of equal importance.

Each game is different, 17 pts might be great one ga,me and terrible in another. sanchez didn't get 21 free pts to play w/ in San Diego, he made big plays to help us get to 17 which was enough to win. W/o 21 free pts henne doesn't have a chance to win that game at the meadowlands and obviously the stakes were just a tad higher in SD than in our meeting.

 

[burger13]

Are we adults?

I have my doubts....about both of us....

Do I really need to explain this to you? First show me where I said Sanchez was GREAT in postseason? he wasn't but he played his best football and the best football of ANY rookie QB in NFL history. You guys treat Sanchez like he was a 10 year vet and forget he was a rookie. It really isn't this difficult to understand.

:rotfl1:

no, you're not saying he was great....just that it was the best rookie performance ever!!

....and I thought that you were one of the more level-headed Jests fans.....that is without a doubt the most laughable comment I have ever seen on this forum...priceless.