MLB HOF 2007: Gwynn & Ripken

[King Felix]

Barry Bonds
Ichiro

ichiro? no way is he a lock right now....he doesnt even have 2,000 hits yet if im not mistaken....plus he is in his 30's now

 

[Ray Finkle]

I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada



Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

Wagner- yes
Banks- yes
Arod- yes but by the time Arod retires and assuming he stays with the Yankees he'll have played more games at 3rd instead of SS so that might DQ him from the debate
Larkin- no
Tejeda- right now- no

Ozzie- only with his glove and range

 

[finfansince72]

I worded that wrong, i meant Top 3, i think he is the 4-5th best. Which is DEFFINETLY HOF material, which i said i think he was about 3 times now. I think he is overrated because people say he is the best of all time, which i don't agree with. I think his ironman streak makes him overrated, yes it was a GREAT accomplishment, but i think it gives makes him look like a better player then he was.

Well I think we agree more than we disagree here. I love Ripken, I think hes one of the alltime greats undeniably, but I agree that he isnt the best SS ever and hes not the best player ever. I really dont even think too much about the streak when I think about how great he was. He was in like 19 allstar games, he was really consistantly great. The streak is due to hard work and perseverence but also alot of luck. Theres players that work incredibly hard to stay healthy but break a hand from a bad pitch or something similar. That streak is awesome but theres so much beyond just being in shape and wanting to play everyday that goes into something like that.

 

[MikeO]

Name five shortstops better than Ripken. I'll give you Honus Wagner for free.

Ernie Banks, Arky Vaughn, Robin Yount, A-Rod, Honus Wagner are 5 right there. I could keep going on too.....

And by the end of his career I might throw in Jeter who will have more hits and a higher career avg.

 

[MikeO]

my point is that you cant be a borderline HOFer and be a 1st Ballot HOFer w/highest % for position player also

I said if you take away the streak he was bordlerine. Since you can't take away the streak its part of it all, he is a lock 1st ballot hall of famer!!!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

 

[MikeO]

I would have to disagree.. Cal won ROY, 2 MVP's, 2 Gold Gloves(could have had more), 8 Silver Sluggers, 19 All-Star Teams.. He was an underrated defender.. Certainly one of the top 3 SS of all-time..

He isn't Ernie Banks, Honus Wagner or Arky Vaughn. Please, he isn't Top 3!!

 

[BigDogsHunt]

I said if you take away the streak he was bordlerine. Since you can't take away the streak its part of it all, he is a lock 1st ballot hall of famer!!!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

And I keep saying without the streak he was going to be a sure-fire HoF based on how he revolutionized the SS position for his size, and hitting prowess! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

(this is fun - but can we agree to disagree?)

 

[Section126]

Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.

 

[MikeO]

Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.

Ya can't. You are 100% correct. Ripken is defined by "the streak'. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But his "numbers" are very very average!! If you take the streak out of the equation and just look at his numbers, they aren't that special. Especially for playing 21 years and having over 12,000 at bats! He just complied numbers because he played so long.

And throw in Jeter as a better SS. Jeter will have 3,000 hits (probably in less at bats). He will retire with an average over .300 (Ripken was .276 I believe).

 

[MikeO]

And I keep saying without the streak he was going to be a sure-fire HoF based on how he revolutionized the SS position for his size, and hitting prowess! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

(this is fun - but can we agree to disagree?)

I agree. Without the streak, the 3,000 hits gets him in the hall of fame on the first ballot alone. That DOESN"T change the fact he is overrated!!!!!!!!

He played 21 years and didn't have 500 home runs. He is a lifetime .275 hitter. Those aren't great numbers!!! The guy is very overrated!!!

 

[GreenMonster]

Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.

Ripken = 2 MVPs, 1 ROY, 19 All-star games

Tejada, Larkin, Jeter = 2 MVP's, 1 ROY, 23 All-star games

 

[Section126]

Ripken = 2 MVPs, 1 ROY, 19 All-star games

Tejada, Larkin, Jeter = 2 MVP's, 1 ROY, 23 All-star games

Do you honestly believe that Ripken is a better player than Tejada, Jeter, and Larkin?

The argument you just made is like saying that Steve Nash is better than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Charles Barkley.

 

[GreenMonster]

Do you honestly believe that Ripken is a better player than Tejada, Jeter, and Larkin?

The argument you just made is like saying that Steve Nash is better than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Charles Barkley.

Larkin, yes barely, he did it for longer...

Jeter right now certainly, he paved the way for players like Jeter

Tejada, yes many players have had monster years but haven't been able to put it together for the whole career.. Tejada could have very well be steroid aided..

SS is very different now with the new age (jeter, tejada, Arod, nomar) SS looking very much more dominant than the ones before them.. Cal was no doubt the best SS of the 80's and 90's with Barry Larkin as a close 2nd..

As for Cal not having 500 HR's only now does that not look as impressive.. The man consistently hit 20 HR a season which at the time was mighty impressive.. Arky Vaughn had 96 HR, he couldn't even get to 100... Things change... He has has 473 HR compared to 411 to the other 3 best SS of the era in Larkin, Trammell and Smith...

 

[Section126]

Larkin, yes barely, he did it for longer...

Jeter right now certainly, he paved the way for players like Jeter

Tejada, yes many players have had monster years but haven't been able to put it together for the whole career.. Tejada could have very well be steroid aided..

SS is very different now with the new age (jeter, tejada, Arod, nomar) SS looking very much more dominant than the ones before them.. Cal was no doubt the best SS of the 80's and 90's with Barry Larkin as a close 2nd..

As for Cal not having 500 HR's only now does that not look as impressive.. The man consistently hit 20 HR a season which at the time was mighty impressive.. Arky Vaughn had 96 HR, he couldn't even get to 100... Things change... He has has 473 HR compared to 411 to the other 3 best SS of the era in Larkin, Trammell and Smith...

And why not Cal? The guy never got hurt...He stayed healthy throughout...Cal Ripken is much more likely to have been steriod aided.

 

[UCFinfan86]

I don't get what the big deal is about revolutionzing a position. Ya its great, but that doesnt make him any better of a player for doing it