You are off topic. Mentioning the Carroo trade and not retain Mathews just clutters the discussion. The question is do you agree with the Alonso/Maxwell trade. My guess from your off topic post is yes, but it is not clear.
PBP: Deep dive: Inside Miami Dolphins’ shrewd trade for Kiko Alonso, Byron Maxwell
- Thread starter CRAZYDOLFAN305
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You are off topic. Mentioning the Carroo trade and not retain Mathews just clutters the discussion. The question is do you agree with the Alonso/Maxwell trade. My guess from your off topic post is yes, but it is not clear.
hoops
Tua time!
Since when is starter considered good value in trade?
Thats too simple a thought process
Michael thomas was a starter at safety for a while would you be happy if you traded out for that...byron maxwell went to the bench even for a rookie and a 2nd year complete position switch project
What makes that trade is alonso has stayed healthy and is back to rookie athletic form...that alone has been worth the 5 trade slots down...finding tunsil there just icing on the cake
But this trade was made before the draft even...i do give the staff credit for having tunsil and bosa at the top of their board...at least thats what we are being told...you never know with this after guys have played stuff
Thats too simple a thought process
Michael thomas was a starter at safety for a while would you be happy if you traded out for that...byron maxwell went to the bench even for a rookie and a 2nd year complete position switch project
What makes that trade is alonso has stayed healthy and is back to rookie athletic form...that alone has been worth the 5 trade slots down...finding tunsil there just icing on the cake
But this trade was made before the draft even...i do give the staff credit for having tunsil and bosa at the top of their board...at least thats what we are being told...you never know with this after guys have played stuff
My answer is that going into it, it defied the odds and the prudent risk to reward ratio proposition but turned out be okay. Happy?
And you're right: I was distracted by the adjective "shrewd," and reacted to mortgaging part of next season's draft for an iffy #2 who hasn't been productive and letting an established commodity walk. And that is NOT "shrewd," !!!!
Carroo TD
Kiko involved in 2 turnovers
Maxwell with a huge PBU late in that game (and a FF, thanks J-off)
Kiko involved in 2 turnovers
Maxwell with a huge PBU late in that game (and a FF, thanks J-off)
Phinatic8u
Club Member
LOL KDawg.
You're right though.
You're right though.
Carroo TD
Kiko involved in 2 turnovers
Maxwell with a huge PBU late in that game
And a FF.
Maxwell has really improved since being benched. Sucks it took that for him to give consistent effort. Also a big reason I wouldn't trust him completely going into next season. I'm pulling for lippett to make the jump and make him and that contract expendable.
Wasn't a fan of this trade when it happened....but it has worked out VERY well for the Fins. Kiko and Maxwell are solid starters and Tunsil is our future left tackle. Not much to complain about at this point.
Carroo TD
Kiko involved in 2 turnovers
Maxwell with a huge PBU late in that game (and a FF, thanks J-off)
It's cool when fans here are right or guess correctly about certain situations....sometimes providing insight before an issue is addressed by the coaching staff.
However what isn't cool is when the same fans are clearly wrong and pass it off as luck when the coaching staff/front office get things right.
At that point, it's almost like you are hoping for failure just so you can be right.
It's OK to be wrong sometimes. You are a fan like the rest of us, not a NFL GM or Coach.
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xXwarXx
☠️ Banned ☠️
Kiko has 4 turnovers in the last 3 games, top 6 in tackles, hes not perfect, but any talk of him not being a really good linebacker is just stupid.
Picture this team without Maxwell and kiko, we aren't even a 500 team.
I don't care what you call this trade, luck, or whatever, this trade changed our season for the better.
Picture this team without Maxwell and kiko, we aren't even a 500 team.
I don't care what you call this trade, luck, or whatever, this trade changed our season for the better.
It's not like that, believe me. Value wise, it was a massively risky move. The only good thing about being ****ty the season before is you get a better draft pick. A top 10 pick in this case, which is huge in building your franchise for the future. We gave that up for one guy who hadn't been healthy since his rookie year and another who was the most comically overpaid non QB in football. 2 people the Eagles wanted nothing to do with ... we literally gave up a top 10 pick to take out chip kelly's trash. It was always going to be a bad value, bigly risky move no matter how it turned out. It was not smart and we are absolutely, positively, without a doubt lucky it worked out.
I mean, the day of the draft someone put up a vid of tunsil with a gas mask on smoking weed. Nothing like that had ever happened before. Was that something we were planning for or were we on the beneficial end of the luckiest **** in draft history?
Gonzo made a great analogy about this that I'll **** up if I try to post it ... but it was spot on.
FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
Can't say I agree with all that, most of that is really just your opinion. Can't really talk in absolutes like that. I'll address each piece of the deal.
First of all, value wise on the service we probably surrendered too much. It was the equivalent of a 3rd round pick, when I was on record before it being confirmed that I didn't think value wise it would be anymore than a day 3 pick. It was also better than giving up an actual 3rd round pick, since we were still able to hold onto our full allotment of picks. Now the value becomes significantly less significant when you consider the available players carrying similar grades between 8-13 to this front office, and to I'm sure plenty others. Most fans fell in love with certain players (Vernon Hargreaves is a big one), so when they realized we weren't going to get THEIR guy this really irked fans and it was part of the negative reception of the trade.
One may argue that we were lucky to get Tunsil because of the gas mask thing. But we were at least intelligent enough to pounce on the opportunity. There's plenty of fortune that happens to all teams whether in the form of guys being available at certain picks, injuries, tons of things. We got good value because of an odd situation, sure. But if we don't have that good fortune, there were plenty of players available that people were clamoring for. Most notably Myles Jack who was definitely in play if Tunsil hadn't slid. Maybe the Titans take Tunsil and Conklin (pro-bowl caliber rookie) slides down the board. Maybe Eli Apple comes available. Point is they rightfully saw there was value to be had at either slot and that getting two starters with some upside was worth that difference. The early returns are they were resoundingly right.
This team had absolutely zero talent at LB entering the offseason. Kiko Alonso flashed pro-bowl caliber skills as a rookie. It's not uncommon for a player two years to return to full strength from a bad knee injury. As far as talent and risk our need at the position made him a worthwhile risk in what was likely going to be a transition year.
Cornerback contracts were insane this past offseason, so they decided to bring in a guy who essentially was under a 2/17M deal. They made a decision that that contract was a better investment than giving a system fit corner like Sean Smith 4/38M. That is looking pretty clearly the right decision. Now there were other options out there, but this trade had VJ's fingerprints all over it, obviously he liked him and signed off on him being included in the trade. People just like to rip Tannenbaum. There were clear risks with Maxwell, and they were rearing their ugly head earlier in the season. But it was always pretty clear that this was the type of corner they were looking for. And even with Maxwell's limitations, a similar scheme to what he ran in Seattle and played in super bowls, him returning to his pre-Eagles form was never exactly some outlandish concept. Plenty of examples of players going from looking great, to playing in schemes that don't fit there skillset and them falling flat. He has come around in a big way, and if he wasn't the product of the trade I'm sure people would be less apprehensive.
There were risks associated in this deal, but the degree of luck is overblown. This trade worked out incredibly well for us.
It was great we got to keep the pick ... and piss it away in the caroo trade. But that doesn't make it saavy. It was still luck that landed us tunsil. Take that off the table and where does that leave us?
Alonso was amazing his rookie year. But it's still a gamble to depend on someone with multiple lower body injuries. Many times guys like that never return to form at all ... or keep getting hurt. Depending on guys with injury histories doesn't typically work out for us. Luck plays a part in that as well.
Maxwell is a toss up for me. He benefitted huge from those safeties behind him in Seattle and got paid like a superstar because of it. Then he goes to Philly and is atrocious ... until the end of the season when he started to come around. Then he comes here and showed no interest in playing football. Took him getting benched to come back to earth. And he's only been mediocre to decent if you ask me. But you're right, press corners are tough to find and get paid in FA, so that's why I can go either way on him.
Neither of those guys were in Philly's plans. Everyone knew it. Why on earth are we giving up a top 10 pick for cast offs? That was a risky gamble that reeked of desperation. Giving up too much because another team knows you're backed into a corner does not a good general manager make.
Tunsil was mostly luck. Sure, we were smart to pounce on the opportunity, but luck of presumably his step dad (did they ever figure that out?) putting that video up on draft day was what got him to us. You can't really compare that situation to character, injury, etc issues coming out of college because nothing like that had ever happened before. Also an impossible situation to predict.
It's worked out (so far ... fingers crossed) so I won't pile on the what ifs but luck played a huge part in the gamble paying off.
Also keep in mind we're only 11 games in. If alonso and tunsil become injury prone and maxwell isn't kept on - and hargreaves becomes one of the best CBs in football - this trade takes on a whole new disastrous look.
But I am pumped its worked out. I didn't think it would and I was wrong. Still lucky though.
FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
It was great we got to keep the pick ... and piss it away in the caroo trade. But that doesn't make it saavy. It was still luck that landed us tunsil. Take that off the table and where does that leave us?
Alonso was amazing his rookie year. But it's still a gamble to depend on someone with multiple lower body injuries. Many times guys like that never return to form at all ... or keep getting hurt. Depending on guys with injury histories doesn't typically work out for us. Luck plays a part in that as well.
Maxwell is a toss up for me. He benefitted huge from those safeties behind him in Seattle and got paid like a superstar because of it. Then he goes to Philly and is atrocious ... until the end of the season when he started to come around. Then he comes here and showed no interest in playing football. Took him getting benched to come back to earth. And he's only been mediocre to decent if you ask me. But you're right, press corners are tough to find and get paid in FA, so that's why I can go either way on him.
Neither of those guys were in Philly's plans. Everyone knew it. Why on earth are we giving up a top 10 pick for cast offs? That was a risky gamble that reeked of desperation. Giving up too much because another team knows you're backed into a corner does not a good general manager make.
Tunsil was mostly luck. Sure, we were smart to pounce on the opportunity, but luck of presumably his step dad (did they ever figure that out?) putting that video up on draft day was what got him to us. You can't really compare that situation to character, injury, etc issues coming out of college because nothing like that had ever happened before. Also an impossible situation to predict.
It's worked out (so far ... fingers crossed) so I won't pile on the what ifs but luck played a huge part in the gamble paying off.
Also keep in mind we're only 11 games in. If alonso and tunsil become injury prone and maxwell isn't kept on - and hargreaves becomes one of the best CBs in football - this trade takes on a whole new disastrous look.
But I am pumped its worked out. I didn't think it would and I was wrong. Still lucky though.
At the end of the day when you take a big gamble, luck has to play a factor. You aren't going to get unlucky and have a gamble workout and vice versa. The way I look at it is, the value we gave up wasn't that substantial. We moved down 5 spots and the value of the players available were comparable. Then we added two starters, one of which appears to be a key piece and a significantly weak area on our team in Alonso. I think Maxwell has entirely returned on the value of his contract with his play of late now that he's comfortable in the system. He has his flaws no doubt, but he's shutdown Antonio Brown and Brandon Marshall off the top of my head, and played great again today.
As I said regarding Tunsil being luck, many people wanted Jack at 8. He was available at 13. Hargreaves obviously didn't fit the profile of what Vance wanted in his DB's, and there's no guarantee he would flourish in this system (he's graded out poorly so far to boot). If Tunsil were to start becoming another Jake Long it still wouldn't effect my judgement of the trade. He didn't have medical red flags coming out and he was absolutely the correct pick at the time.
I'd argue the best teams in football are the luckiest. If we'd had a bit more luck in the past we'd be in better shape, but we've never had a lot of luck on our side (and we made flat out poor decisions anyway). I guess the Pats are lucky for Brady, but nobody is bashing them for lucking into him. It's not like they had some 3rd round grade on him and saw greatness, otherwise they wouldn't have taken him in round 6.