Brad528
Pro Bowler
He was the qb of a team with alot less wins and had almost as many INT and not much better stats so how do you figure he makes such better decisions.
Ramsey=Disaster
- Thread starter fin-atic
- Start date
You guys really believe that Ramsey is a better option than Henson or Rivers?
I mean take a look at Ramsey's results and real career and tell me you are truly willing to pass on a franhise QB for Patrick Ramsey?
I stand by my "get both" statement. I know Chambersown disagrees, but I think it has been proven time and time again you need two QBs in this league anymore. No one should know that more than Miami fans.
Either way, this off season is going to be a heck of a ride!!
And yes, JAY MUST GO!!
I mean take a look at Ramsey's results and real career and tell me you are truly willing to pass on a franhise QB for Patrick Ramsey?
I stand by my "get both" statement. I know Chambersown disagrees, but I think it has been proven time and time again you need two QBs in this league anymore. No one should know that more than Miami fans.
Either way, this off season is going to be a heck of a ride!!
And yes, JAY MUST GO!!
Phinzone
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I personally want Rivers. However, there is a lot to be said for nabbing Ramsey who can play now, and using an O-gun pick to patch up the line, or for a new WR (best talent at that point). I do thin Rivers could walk in though as well given the chance mid-season. So i'm kind of impartial. I jsut dont' think Rmasey will be much more effective in our ofense with our current line.
Dolphins99Fan
Practice Squad
Fin-atic, I don't mean to sound like an @sshole in any way here, but how can you be certain that either of those guys are Franchise Type QBs when they've never played a down in the NFL?
There's no question both men have the capability of BECOMING franchise QBs, but remember these names.. Ryan Leaf.. Heath Shuler.. Cade McNown.. Rick Mirer... All three of them were supposed to be Franchise QBs as well..
(No Rivers fanatics, I'm NOT comparing the Second Coming to these names....)
PhinKev
Pro Bowler
I've been reading this thread and thinking about what has been written.
When I first read about us aquiring Ramsey I was happy. But, now I'm having second thoughts.
You really can't know if the guy will be great or a bust. But, I there is a legitimate fear that Ramsey could be a Rob Johnson. He does seem to take a lot of sacks. That is due in part to Spurrier, but he does seem to have a Johnson like tendancy to hold the ball too much.
I agree with Finatic. Let's take a shot at the homerun and go for Henson.
Maybe he busts too, but when are we going to get another at bat with a guy with that kind of potential.
When I first read about us aquiring Ramsey I was happy. But, now I'm having second thoughts.
You really can't know if the guy will be great or a bust. But, I there is a legitimate fear that Ramsey could be a Rob Johnson. He does seem to take a lot of sacks. That is due in part to Spurrier, but he does seem to have a Johnson like tendancy to hold the ball too much.
I agree with Finatic. Let's take a shot at the homerun and go for Henson.
Maybe he busts too, but when are we going to get another at bat with a guy with that kind of potential.
RUDEbyallMEANS
Perennial All-Pro
Henson over Ramsey?? Say what??
Henson has started 8 games in college and he's a franchise type QB?? Are you kidding?? I understand the debate between Ramsey and Rivers, but Ramsey has eveything that Henson does plus the NFL experience in an offense that had him set fo failure against NFL defenses.. Now that Brunell is more than a lock to go to Washington, Miami's bet option IMO is to trade for Ramsey who could start right now and learn as he goes with Trestman instead of having to draft Rivers and throw him in the fire as a rookie when this defense is set to win a championship RIGHT NOW..
There's no sense in having Fiedler back and drafting Rivers only to watch how not to throw to receivers.. That won't help..
By the way, I believe Ramsey will be an excellent QB in the future. Especially in this offense where a QB is set up for success..
Henson has started 8 games in college and he's a franchise type QB?? Are you kidding?? I understand the debate between Ramsey and Rivers, but Ramsey has eveything that Henson does plus the NFL experience in an offense that had him set fo failure against NFL defenses.. Now that Brunell is more than a lock to go to Washington, Miami's bet option IMO is to trade for Ramsey who could start right now and learn as he goes with Trestman instead of having to draft Rivers and throw him in the fire as a rookie when this defense is set to win a championship RIGHT NOW..
There's no sense in having Fiedler back and drafting Rivers only to watch how not to throw to receivers.. That won't help..
By the way, I believe Ramsey will be an excellent QB in the future. Especially in this offense where a QB is set up for success..
Surferosa
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dude, relax. Im just joking around.
eace:Just keep in mind that those that pass judgement on Ramsey after only one FULL season starting at QB are definitely jumping the gun. He's been the most productive QB to come into the league the last two years. That includes a list of high former #1 draft picks including Joey Harrington, David Carr, Byron Leftwich, Carson Palmer and Kyle Boller. So say what you want about him, but hes much further along than his peers right now. I will be shocked if Rivers and henson play this well after only two seasons in the league....
Conisdering guys like Steve Mcnair and Palmer didnt (wont) even see the field in their first two yearsI think his production is quite remarkable at this early stage in his career.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
The issue is whats proven I think. Whats proven so far for Ramsey is that in 612 dropbacks Ramsey has gotten dropped for a sack about once every 13 dropbacks.
Those numbers are very reminiscent of Rob Johnson I agree. BUT (and I'm surprised nobody bothered to actually look this up), they are nowhere near as bad as Rob Johnson. Lets get that down right now. In fact, Rob Johnson gets sacked TWICE as much as Ramsey. Johnson for his career gets sacked about once every 6 or 7 dropbacks.
Below is a list of quarterbacks, sorted by how many times statistically they drop back to pass before getting sacked. I tally the dropbacks by adding pass attempts and sacks.
Instead of posting the exact decimals I'll say between what number dropbacks, but i'll put a * next to the number thats closest to the decimal.
In other words Joe Schmoka had 5000 pass attempts and has been sacked 600 times. Of 5600 dropbacks, he gets sacked 600 times...or in other words between every 9 and 10 drops (actual number 9.33)
Joe Schmoka.......................................between 9* and 10 drops
Means Joe Schmoka takes a sack between every 9 and 10 drops (closer to 9 than 10).
Get it? OK good.
Player.....................................................Dropbacks
Rob Johnson............................................between 6 and 7* drops
Chad Hutchinson.....................................between 8* and 9 drops
David Carr...............................................between 9* and 10 drops
Charlie Batch...........................................between 10* and 11 drops
Mike Vick.................................................between 10 and 11* drops
Rodney Peete.........................................between 10 and 11* drops
Tim Couch...............................................between 11* and 12 drops
Drew Bledsoe (2002 + 2003)..................between 11* and 12 drops
Chris Chandler........................................between 11 and 12* drops
Mark Brunell............................................between 11 and 12* drops
Donovan McNabb....................................between 12 and 13* drops
Patrick Ramsey........................................between 12 and 13* drops
Shaun King..............................................between 12 and 13* drops
Matt Hasselbeck......................................between 12 and 13* drops
Daunte Culpepper...................................between 13* and 14 drops
Trent Dilfer...............................................between 13* and 14 drops
Neil O'Donnell..........................................between 13* and 14 drops
Jeff Blake.................................................every 14 drops
Kyle Boller...............................................between 14* and 15 drops
Aaron Brooks..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Quincy Carter..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Kelly Holcombe........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Jake Plummer..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Tommy Maddox.......................................between 14 and 15* drops
Rich Gannon............................................between 14 and 15* drops
Kordell Stewart.......................................between 14 and 15* drops
Brian Griese............................................between 15* and 16 drops
Trent Green.............................................between 15* and 16 drops
Chad Pennington....................................between 15 and 16* drops
Kurt Warner............................................between 15 and 16* drops
Tom Brady...............................................between 15 and 16* drops
Gus Frerotte............................................between 16* and 17 drops
Marc Bulger.............................................between 16* and 17 drops
Drew Bledsoe (career)............................between 16* and 17 drops
Steve McNair...........................................between 17* and 18 drops
Jon Kitna.................................................between 17* and 18 drops
Vinny Testeverde....................................between 17* and 18 drops
Jay Fiedler...............................................every 18 drops
Kerry Collins............................................between 18* and 19 drops
Brett Favre..............................................between 18 and 19* drops
Chris Weinke..........................................every 19 drops
Brad Johnson..........................................between 19 and 20* drops
Jake Delhomme.......................................between 19 and 20* drops
Drew Brees.............................................between 20* and 21 drops
Doug Flutie.............................................every 21 drops
Byron Leftwich........................................every 23 drops
Jeff Garcia...............................................between 24* and 25 drops
Peyton Manning......................................between 27 and 28* drops
Joey Harrington.......................................between 58* and 59 drops :egads:
This gets its own thread I think. Too good to pass up.
Basically I agree with fin-atic though, I don't think we necessarily should give our #20 pick in the draft for Ramsey. The sack thing is not necessarily the problem though. Is it a concern? Yeah, because in college he was known as a guy that was too tough for his own good sometimes then too. But, then again, will his sack percentage get better when he gets to a real NFL offense that will actually try and protect him? I truly believe it will.
His propensity to take sacks IMO is far overblown by the way he took them in Washington, showing such guts and determination even mired in that stupidly simple and yet demanding offense of Spurrier's. Everyone knew he was getting killed out there and thats why attention is drawn to his sack count even though so far in his career its been way better than guys he is being compared to (Rob Johnson).
What concerns me about Ramsey is that a lot of his throws were labeled "poor throws" by STATS Inc...that and his completion percentage. But once again, he was only in his second year, he was playing with a broken foot a lot of the time, he was getting killed physically by Spurrier's unwillingness to protect him, and the offense itself made him responsible for numerous checkdowns without being very creative in those routes to get guys open.
What impresses me about Ramsey is that despite the problems he was facing in Washington...despite the fact that for all intents and purposes he had a BAD YEAR, the guy still took care of the football. In 30 sacks he only fumbled it 7 times which is better than say, Tom Brady, and he only threw 9 interceptions compared with 14 TDs. He did that while the pressure was completely on him to be the playmaker of the offense. They weren't a running team, the running game was an afterthought for the Redskins...something that derives solely from the ability to pass it all over the field. Ramsey faced blitzes of the most heinous in nature because of Spurrier's lack of protection schemes, and he stood in there and TOOK CARE OF THE FOOTBALL relatively speaking.
Going to an offense where the run comes first and the pressure is off him I naturally expect his sacks to go down. But what he needs to work on is becoming an ACCURATE quarterback, and you know thats not somethin that a guy necessarily does in his first or second year.
Those numbers are very reminiscent of Rob Johnson I agree. BUT (and I'm surprised nobody bothered to actually look this up), they are nowhere near as bad as Rob Johnson. Lets get that down right now. In fact, Rob Johnson gets sacked TWICE as much as Ramsey. Johnson for his career gets sacked about once every 6 or 7 dropbacks.
Below is a list of quarterbacks, sorted by how many times statistically they drop back to pass before getting sacked. I tally the dropbacks by adding pass attempts and sacks.
Instead of posting the exact decimals I'll say between what number dropbacks, but i'll put a * next to the number thats closest to the decimal.
In other words Joe Schmoka had 5000 pass attempts and has been sacked 600 times. Of 5600 dropbacks, he gets sacked 600 times...or in other words between every 9 and 10 drops (actual number 9.33)
Joe Schmoka.......................................between 9* and 10 drops
Means Joe Schmoka takes a sack between every 9 and 10 drops (closer to 9 than 10).
Get it? OK good.
Player.....................................................Dropbacks
Rob Johnson............................................between 6 and 7* drops
Chad Hutchinson.....................................between 8* and 9 drops
David Carr...............................................between 9* and 10 drops
Charlie Batch...........................................between 10* and 11 drops
Mike Vick.................................................between 10 and 11* drops
Rodney Peete.........................................between 10 and 11* drops
Tim Couch...............................................between 11* and 12 drops
Drew Bledsoe (2002 + 2003)..................between 11* and 12 drops
Chris Chandler........................................between 11 and 12* drops
Mark Brunell............................................between 11 and 12* drops
Donovan McNabb....................................between 12 and 13* drops
Patrick Ramsey........................................between 12 and 13* drops
Shaun King..............................................between 12 and 13* drops
Matt Hasselbeck......................................between 12 and 13* drops
Daunte Culpepper...................................between 13* and 14 drops
Trent Dilfer...............................................between 13* and 14 drops
Neil O'Donnell..........................................between 13* and 14 drops
Jeff Blake.................................................every 14 drops
Kyle Boller...............................................between 14* and 15 drops
Aaron Brooks..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Quincy Carter..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Kelly Holcombe........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Jake Plummer..........................................between 14* and 15 drops
Tommy Maddox.......................................between 14 and 15* drops
Rich Gannon............................................between 14 and 15* drops
Kordell Stewart.......................................between 14 and 15* drops
Brian Griese............................................between 15* and 16 drops
Trent Green.............................................between 15* and 16 drops
Chad Pennington....................................between 15 and 16* drops
Kurt Warner............................................between 15 and 16* drops
Tom Brady...............................................between 15 and 16* drops
Gus Frerotte............................................between 16* and 17 drops
Marc Bulger.............................................between 16* and 17 drops
Drew Bledsoe (career)............................between 16* and 17 drops
Steve McNair...........................................between 17* and 18 drops
Jon Kitna.................................................between 17* and 18 drops
Vinny Testeverde....................................between 17* and 18 drops
Jay Fiedler...............................................every 18 drops
Kerry Collins............................................between 18* and 19 drops
Brett Favre..............................................between 18 and 19* drops
Chris Weinke..........................................every 19 drops
Brad Johnson..........................................between 19 and 20* drops
Jake Delhomme.......................................between 19 and 20* drops
Drew Brees.............................................between 20* and 21 drops
Doug Flutie.............................................every 21 drops
Byron Leftwich........................................every 23 drops
Jeff Garcia...............................................between 24* and 25 drops
Peyton Manning......................................between 27 and 28* drops
Joey Harrington.......................................between 58* and 59 drops :egads:
This gets its own thread I think. Too good to pass up.
Basically I agree with fin-atic though, I don't think we necessarily should give our #20 pick in the draft for Ramsey. The sack thing is not necessarily the problem though. Is it a concern? Yeah, because in college he was known as a guy that was too tough for his own good sometimes then too. But, then again, will his sack percentage get better when he gets to a real NFL offense that will actually try and protect him? I truly believe it will.
His propensity to take sacks IMO is far overblown by the way he took them in Washington, showing such guts and determination even mired in that stupidly simple and yet demanding offense of Spurrier's. Everyone knew he was getting killed out there and thats why attention is drawn to his sack count even though so far in his career its been way better than guys he is being compared to (Rob Johnson).
What concerns me about Ramsey is that a lot of his throws were labeled "poor throws" by STATS Inc...that and his completion percentage. But once again, he was only in his second year, he was playing with a broken foot a lot of the time, he was getting killed physically by Spurrier's unwillingness to protect him, and the offense itself made him responsible for numerous checkdowns without being very creative in those routes to get guys open.
What impresses me about Ramsey is that despite the problems he was facing in Washington...despite the fact that for all intents and purposes he had a BAD YEAR, the guy still took care of the football. In 30 sacks he only fumbled it 7 times which is better than say, Tom Brady, and he only threw 9 interceptions compared with 14 TDs. He did that while the pressure was completely on him to be the playmaker of the offense. They weren't a running team, the running game was an afterthought for the Redskins...something that derives solely from the ability to pass it all over the field. Ramsey faced blitzes of the most heinous in nature because of Spurrier's lack of protection schemes, and he stood in there and TOOK CARE OF THE FOOTBALL relatively speaking.
Going to an offense where the run comes first and the pressure is off him I naturally expect his sacks to go down. But what he needs to work on is becoming an ACCURATE quarterback, and you know thats not somethin that a guy necessarily does in his first or second year.
Last edited by a moderator:
DrAstroZoom
Bon vivant
CK .... very nice breakdown. Who would have guessed Joey Harrington would top the list?
Let me close out my thoughts on this thread by saying I don't think Ramsey=Disaster. I think he gives us the best chance for deep playoff advancement in the SHORT TERM. If you're not worried about the playoffs this year, I'd say go with Rivers, as I think he will EVENTUALLY be a fantastic franchise QB (and a better one than Ramsey, long term).
Let me close out my thoughts on this thread by saying I don't think Ramsey=Disaster. I think he gives us the best chance for deep playoff advancement in the SHORT TERM. If you're not worried about the playoffs this year, I'd say go with Rivers, as I think he will EVENTUALLY be a fantastic franchise QB (and a better one than Ramsey, long term).
PhinKev
Pro Bowler
CK,
I'm impressed just by the work it took to put that list together. Harrington is a shocker.
I have to be honest. I just haven't watched enough of Ramsey to be sure about anything. But, I still think that if you have a chance at a guy like Henson who could be a great one, you roll the dice.
I'm impressed just by the work it took to put that list together. Harrington is a shocker.
I have to be honest. I just haven't watched enough of Ramsey to be sure about anything. But, I still think that if you have a chance at a guy like Henson who could be a great one, you roll the dice.
Noland
Practice Squad
For one thing Ramsey has better wr or let me say more wr to throw to.
IMO I would rather keep Fiedler (I thought I would never say that) let him start a year give Rivers a chance to start next year if we get Rivers. Instead of getting Ramsey that is based on potential.
IMO I would rather keep Fiedler (I thought I would never say that) let him start a year give Rivers a chance to start next year if we get Rivers. Instead of getting Ramsey that is based on potential.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
My only concern with Rivers is that we need to make sure the offense is tailor-made for his talents. Currently the prototypical QB to run this kind of offense is more like Henson than Rivers or Ramsey.
I think Rivers reminds me a lot of Bernie Kosar but also a lot of Brad Johnson. BJ is a very accurate QB and seemed to do really well with the offense the way it was run in Tampa (won a super bowl). He also did very well in Norv's offense in Washington though so maybe Rivers could run this offense very well too.
If we got Rivers and tried to mold him into a play-action passer, it might take a year or two before he gets the footwork down for that. If we let him run around and be kind of a Steve McNair then I think he could play earlier.
I think Rivers reminds me a lot of Bernie Kosar but also a lot of Brad Johnson. BJ is a very accurate QB and seemed to do really well with the offense the way it was run in Tampa (won a super bowl). He also did very well in Norv's offense in Washington though so maybe Rivers could run this offense very well too.
If we got Rivers and tried to mold him into a play-action passer, it might take a year or two before he gets the footwork down for that. If we let him run around and be kind of a Steve McNair then I think he could play earlier.