Ronnie Deal Could Pick Up Pace Very Soon

[PHINZONER]

To an extent. A rb is not going to get or demand what a QB or stud OL man does.

 

[PHINZONER]

I am out!!!

Thanks for the discussion! I will check back tomorrow!!

See YA!

 

[Merman]

Thank You. He is so sure he's right here he's not even considering the fact that some NFL owners actually lose money annually even in todays NFL.

I don't know why you are thanking me I think you are wrong. The NFL franchises are all making money but the ones with a good stadium deal are making more.

The links to forbes make that clear.

 

[Merman]

Anyway, after reading Merman's links, I found nothing that woiuld make me believe that Huizenga or any other NFL owner nets 1-2 million. In fact, in the first link, the article stated that the average team nets 22 mil in operating income (I highly doubt that non-operating losses and taxes are in the 20 mil range). The second article stated that in 2002 the lucrative NFL TV deal made the owners a cummulative 1 Billion in operating income, meaning that the average team made 31.25 million in operating profit. That is a much more believable number than 1-2 million.

Operating profit is exactly that, income after Cost of Sales. Then comes all the operating expenses. Interest, Depreciation, Executive Salaries, Travel, Advertising and Stadium Maintenance and Repairs take a major bite out of Operating Income.

As I posted previously the NFL franchises are making gobs of money but don't be surprised if the Net Income is much less than you think. Do not confuse that with cash flow or getting rich. Businesses are allowed to deduct any legal type of expense to earn money.

If you remember Leona Hemsley went over board and was even deducting expenses to improve her personal home. I am not saying the NFL is doing anything illegal. Just trying to make the point that business expenses can be personally beneficial.

 

[Fran2fin]

i disagree slightly....yes SF was very stupid to pay Smith money i would have only Shared with Leinhart...Smith wasnt a number one but he played SF very badly and now France wants to play Miami based on Smiths numbers and Saban isnt letting them....ok now with that said France is a new agent or new to the high market game....and right now he will need Braylon's money figures to get a deal done because "he is feeling his way into the agent game"( we all stated this before, thats where the disagreement comes. he isnt just waiting for Smith's deal to get done because that was done last almost 2 weeks ago...Right now he is on "plan B" he knows right now that he wont play miami for 22 mill so easily so he is sitting and waiting till Edwards and Benson sign on the dotted line... so he dont make a fool out of himself...but he already has...he's an idiot and i am suprised that ronnie is holding onto him

All this "money crunching" is giving me a wopper of a headache....glad I'm not doing the deal.....all of these posts have valid points......looks like we are between a rock and a hard place........another point is how much the player is needed on the said team......its doubly hard figuring this angle, because if Ricky is a bust or ops out again, how badly do we need Brown????

Just adding fuel to the fire......:D

 

[Merman]

All this "money crunching" is giving me a wopper of a headache....glad I'm not doing the deal.....all of these posts have valid points......looks like we are between a rock and a hard place........another point is how much the player is needed on the said team......its doubly hard figuring this angle, because if Ricky is a bust or ops out again, how badly do we need Brown????

Just adding fuel to the fire......:D

That's not another point but a central point now in the negotiations. How long will each side be willing to stunt the player's development before they make the difficult decisions to compromise and reach agreement???

The Dolphins made a huge move going to 5 years for a top pick involving so much money. The money is now a substantial increase when divided over 5 years. Kudos to the Dolphins negotiating team.
:hail:

 

[AtlantaPhin]

First of all, I wasn't trying to jump on you or anything. I only asked for any evidence because hehateme made a statement that I believed to be untrue, arsenal disagreed with the statement (much more harshly than I did, but still a disagreement), and obviously you disagreed with him. Given that hehateme was the one who made the initial ascertation that you apparently agree with, if he (and you) want people to accept the statement, someone needs something to back him up (that is, of course, unless one of you is Wayne Huizenga himself). Otherwise, I might as well say that the sky is dolphin orange and then when people question my opinion say "please send me your subpoena as I didn't realize I was in a court of law here".

Anyway, after reading Merman's links, I found nothing that woiuld make me believe that Huizenga or any other NFL owner nets 1-2 million. In fact, in the first link, the article stated that the average team nets 22 mil in operating income (I highly doubt that non-operating losses and taxes are in the 20 mil range). The second article stated that in 2002 the lucrative NFL TV deal made the owners a cummulative 1 Billion in operating income, meaning that the average team made 31.25 million in operating profit. That is a much more believable number than 1-2 million.

That was a joke so sorry if you took it the wrong way. Yes I realize every team is set up with the 31 mill from the TV deals according to the article we both read but than you have to start deducting operating expenses after that. Simply put, running an NFL team isn't cheap. I think one of us should throw this towards Brett Tessler as he might be able to provide some insight for us since he would obviously have knowledge of the subject.

 

[Rrodr038]

Operating profit is exactly that, income after Cost of Sales. Then comes all the operating expenses. Interest, Depreciation, Executive Salaries, Travel, Advertising and Stadium Maintenance and Repairs take a major bite out of Operating Income.

As I posted previously the NFL franchises are making gobs of money but don't be surprised if the Net Income is much less than you think. Do not confuse that with cash flow or getting rich. Businesses are allowed to deduct any legal type of expense to earn money.

If you remember Leona Hemsley went over board and was even deducting expenses to improve her personal home. I am not saying the NFL is doing anything illegal. Just trying to make the point that business expenses can be personally beneficial.

Sorry, but as an accounting student one class from graduating, I'm almost positive that your interpretation of Operating profit is wrong. Operating profit= operating revenues-operating expenses, which includes every item you mentioned minus interest (investment losses, taxes and abnormal losses are not included either). I'm pretty sure when a Forbes article mentions "operational profit", they are using it in the traditional accounting sense, as they are a financial magazine ( although I don't read Forbes and crazier things have happened). If they were referring to it as traditional operating profit, net income shouldn't be lower than 55-60% of operating profit. Which would give you a range from 12 mil to almost 20 million in clear profits per year and that was 3 years ago. Much larger than the 1-2 million discussed before.

 

[Merman]

Sorry, but as an accounting student one class from graduating, I'm almost positive that your interpretation of Operating profit is wrong. Operating profit= operating revenues-operating expenses, which includes every item you mentioned minus interest (investment losses, taxes and abnormal losses are not included either). I'm pretty sure when a Forbes article mentions "operational profit", they are using it in the traditional accounting sense, as they are a financial magazine ( although I don't read Forbes and crazier things have happened). If they were referring to it as traditional operating profit, net income shouldn't be lower than 55-60% of operating profit. Which would give you a range from 12 mil to almost 20 million in clear profits per year and that was 3 years ago. Much larger than the 1-2 million discussed before.

You are absolutely correct I used the term incorrectly. I used the term Operating Profit and meant Gross Profit. Forbes did not use the term Operating Profit.

 

[Rrodr038]

You are absolutely correct I used the term incorrectly. I used the term Operating Profit and meant Gross Profit. Forbes did not use the term Operating Profit.

:eek:
These are direct quotes from the two articles:

"The Raiders generated $14 million in operating income last season. While this kind of return would make any other non-NFL sports owner salivate, it was still more than 30% below the league average of $22 million."

And just in case you might think that when they say operating income they are referring to something other than operating profit they refer to the Raiders 14 million dollar operarting profit again:

"All of this adds up to total revenue of $151 million, with an operating profit last season of $31 million, more than twice that of the Raiders."

The last two quotes are from the 2003 article. Here's one from the more recent 2004 article:

"The salary cap and rich TV deal gave NFL owners a cumulative operating profit of $1 billion last season, compared with collective losses for both Major League Baseball and the National Hockey League."

The billion dollar cummulative operating profit, as I said before, would be a 31.25 million dollar operating profit average. I think that's as clear cut as it gets.

Furthermore, for Atlantaphin and hehateme, who believe that making a profit is dificult in the NFL:
"The NFL system also ensures that every team makes money whether they win or lose."

"Unlike other sports though, all NFL teams prosper from this league-wide success. In the NFL, teams share 74% of their revenue compared to 34% in the National Basketball Association, 25% in baseball, and 12% for the National Hockey League."

Like I said before, I think those articles make the statement seem less true, not more true, not even taking into consideration that Huizenga owns 'Phins Stadium, which either by interest expense or rent payments negates a large expenditure.

 

[Merman]

:eek:
These are direct quotes from the two articles:

"The Raiders generated $14 million in operating income last season. While this kind of return would make any other non-NFL sports owner salivate, it was still more than 30% below the league average of $22 million."

And just in case you might think that when they say operating income they are referring to something other than operating profit they refer to the Raiders 14 million dollar operarting profit again:

Forbes is using the term Operating Profit as EBITDA. Take a look below the chart.

EBITDA: Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization.

Which is why I was thinking Gross Profit this morning when posting.

http://www.forbes.com/2003/01/23/cz_kb_0123superbiz.html


10.Miami Dolphins/Wayne Huizenga ('93)

$159 million of Revenues. $31.5 million Operating Profit before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. The debt ratio is 31% which includes stadium debt. There must be some heavy interest deductions and property taxes. Then there is depreciation and income tax expense to deduct before arriving at Net Income.

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0915/081tab.html

 

[Rrodr038]

Forbes is using the term Operating Profit as EBITDA. Take a look below the chart.



Which is why I was thinking Gross Profit this morning when posting.

http://www.forbes.com/2003/01/23/cz_kb_0123superbiz.html


10.Miami Dolphins/Wayne Huizenga ('93)

$159 million of Revenues. $31.5 million Operating Profit before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. The debt ratio is 31% which includes stadium debt. There must be some heavy interest deductions and property taxes. Then there is depreciation and income tax expense to deduct before arriving at Net Income.

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0915/081tab.html

Hold on, Hold on. Phins Stadium is his personal investment, separate and apart from the Dolphins. If you include interest expense, ammortization, depreciation and property taxes on Phins Stadium, then you should also include as a revenue the rent the Marlins pay, the parking and concessions during baseball games and the annual proceeds from the Orange Bowl plus any other proceeds he receives outside of game day that are attributable to the stadium. That would most likely offset the interest, depreciation and property taxes, if not create substantial income towards it. You can't have it both ways.

Taking the 31.5 mil figure you gave, income taxes would reduce the net income to 65% of income before taxes (rounding tax to 35%), and probably wouldn't be below 18 mil.

 

[Merman]

Hold on, Hold on. Phins Stadium is his personal investment, separate and apart from the Dolphins. If you include interest expense, ammortization, depreciation and property taxes on Phins Stadium, then you should also include as a revenue the rent the Marlins pay, the parking and concessions during baseball games and the annual proceeds from the Orange Bowl plus any other proceeds he receives outside of game day that are attributable to the stadium. That would most likely offset the interest, depreciation and property taxes, if not create substantial income towards it. You can't have it both ways.

Taking the 31.5 mil figure you gave, income taxes would reduce the net income to 65% of income before taxes (rounding tax to 35%), and probably wouldn't be below 18 mil.

I am not having it anyway. I am using Forbes's figures. The figures are a combination of the team and stadium. Though the stadium probably is a lease deal a portion of the property and intangible taxes are probably paid and there are definitely interest payments paid whether for the franchise or the stadium. Both of these expenses are not shown. The corporate tax rate is 40.5%. Florida has a 5.5% corporate tax.

We also do not know if the Dolphins’ Training facility is part of the franchise with its related expenses for taxes, interest and depreciation missing.

The only thing we do know for sure is that Huizenga does not own Dolphins Stadium personally.

Huizenga Holdings, Inc. Company Profile
What kind of maverick entrepreneur would you be if you didn't have an eponymous investment firm on the side? Huizenga Holdings is an investment and entertainment conglomerate that owns the Miami Dolphins football team and the team's home, Dolphins Stadium. It also develops and manages residential and commercial properties in Florida. The company was founded by the aforementioned maverick entrepreneur, H. Wayne Huizenga, who was the man behind a few little ventures you may have heard of: AutoNation, Blockbuster, Waste Management, and Republic Services.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/105/105525.html

Current
value(1) $638 mil

(1)Value of team based on current stadium deal (unless new stadium is pending) without deduction for debt (other than stadium debt).

Debt/value(3) 31%
(3)Includes stadium debt

Gate Receipts(6) $41 mil
(6)Includes club seats.

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0915/nfl_10.html

 

[DeathStar]

wayne owns 100 percent interest in both the stadium and the team.

 

[hehateme]

wayne owns 100 percent interest in both the stadium and the team.

I have to disagree. I think the accountants in here would agree with me when I state it would be incredibly foolish for any individual to personally own a large commercial property, especially one as large as Dolphins stadium when doing as such could lead to their personal finances being attacked by such things as natural catastrophe, lawsuits from people falling over seats etc.

It's already stated above that Huizenga Holdings, Inc. which is probably an LLC, owns the stadium. Not Wayne himself.