Roster Notes vs strength of top of draft

[ckparrothead]

If you decide to sit down once to look at Melvin Ingram, be prepared to keep sittin' there a while.

The first thing that will make you gasp is the caliber of athlete he is for that size. It's indeed very, very rare.

Furthermore, you won't knock his motor or consistency.

The biggest question you'll come away asking yourself is, "Where do I play this guy"?

DE? DT? OLB?



Running back? :d-day:

LOL. Great. Another 7+ gamer on the horizon. You know that's what always happens to me. I see a guy I like and I'm compelled by some sort of OCD to just keep watching more and more.

 

[jim1]

I don't know who will be available at #7 (our current position) Nor do you. I would take any number of players from Barkley to Claiborne to Blackmon over De Castro You can tell me "theyt won't be there" but you don't know any of that yet including where we'll pick. We don't know how kids are going to test, who is even declaring etc and to put a right guard on a pedestal to me is ridiculous.

how many of you even understand line play or have watched game film on DeCastro? Not many, yet people in here are calling him a special player?? based on what? a scouting report from someone who doesn't work for an NFL team?

I like Weeden as well but not in the first round unless they can trade down. I like our odds of getting a playmaker better if we stay in the top 10 and don't draft another offensive lineman.

can it not be argued that since Wannstedt, Miami has devoted more free agent dollars and high draft picks to the offensive line than any other unit? That focus has come at a tremendous price, imo, a lack of difference makers in the draft.

If you ask me, Parcells and Co overdid it with the defensive line as well. It boggles my mind that we're year 4 into this regime and we don't have anything close to a franchise QB or a Jermaine Gresham or an Aaron Hernandez much less a Graham or Gronkowski

I think the focus should be less on acquiring more linemen in the draft and more on developing the players we have now. I like Pouncey but should it take a year for him to learn how to shotgun snap? You ever notice that Matt Moore looks like he's trying to catch a wet watermelon on every third and long? why can't they get John Jerry to the point where he isn't making mental mistakes? he's obviously physically talented. or find a real RT or get Vernon Carey's fat *** in shape so he isn't always hurt or getting beat?

Part of my problem with this "O-line all the time" draft mantra is that it ignores the fact that these players have to be developed and Tony S was supposed to be an O-line guru who has had all the time and resources needed to put together a good line and he hasn't. meanwhile we're sitting with Bills like talent at the skill positions.

I haven't seen any poster on this thread come close to espousing an "O-line all the time draft mantra". You're either not reading the posts carefully enough, or you have what seems to be a significant problem with reading comprehension. Any subtlety, any nuance as to the rationale behind drafting one of the best Guard draft prospects in a decade in the top ten- in a year in which top playmakers are scarce and Blackmon/Caliborne will most likely be gone by the time we pick- has consistently gone right over your head. Your belief that a TE (seriously, Orson Charles?) would be a better pick than DeCastro speaks volumes and reeks of ignorance.

In the NFL draft you can't always get what you want- that's the way it goes. But sometimes, if you try real hard, and look at tremendous players who would provide value at need positions like David DeCstro, you get what you need. It's an anomaly, it doesn't happen very often at all. Everyone who follows the draft to any significant degree knows this, there's no mystery there. Props, of course, to Keith and Mick. "Life" by KR, btw, was a heck of a read.

So, to sum up- no one is promoting "O-line, all the time", so get that out of your head. DeCastro is a once in a blue moon OG prospect. We need an OG. Quality playmakers will most likely be scarce by the time the Dolphins pick in the first round. My focus is on Brandon Weeden. I don't think that Weeden will be available by the time we pick in the second round. I'd like to see the Fins trade down in the 1st and secure Weeden- despite the ever present age issue, I think that he's simply THAT good. I don't want to go defense with the 1st pick, but I'd rather go D than select Alshon Jeffery. Michael Floyd would give me something to think about. Whether or not you take Weeden with a hight 1st rd pick, given his age, has been troubling me for some time. And if we end up picking at #7 I think that David DeCastro would be a solid pick because, as I've said from the beginning, he's a tremendous prospect who, despite the less than ideal position that he plays in terms of being a high draft pick, offers a need/value proposition that's quite a bit higher than the playmakers who are likely to be available at #7. Including Orson Charles.

 

[3rdandinches]

Son, you have a lot to learn. Is Vernon Davis a second rate TE? He went from nowhere in December to top 10 by draft day. Running a fast 40 opened the door for him to rise up the draft boards.

You should look into Dwayne Allen and Orson Charles before dismissing them. I guess that's what amateur Kipers do. They make all their picks in December and if you dare to question them, you're dead wrong.

Taking any guard top 10 is silly. Especially when your team has so much invested in the rest of their O-line. You can't defend it

as for Gholston I wasn't in his corner. I was a Matt Ryan guy. Guess i was wrong there, too.

Right back to the insults, great debating skills.

Vernon Davis do not rise up the draft boards because of his 40 time, it's really sad that I have to point that out to you.

You keep making your hindsight comparisons and I'll go by BPA along with the rest of the NFL. The funny thing about you're arguement with Jim1 and I is neither us said anything about having to draft an OL in the top ten. You made your arguement about drafting a TE that may not be worth a top 10 pick but since we've invested in OL before we shouldn't draft the next great guard and over draft a player because of the position they play.

IMHO, outside of QB there is zero positions in football that you should "reach" for, BPA and this year it will not be a TE - no matter his 40 time, lol.

 

[3rdandinches]

I haven't seen any poster on this thread come close to espousing an "O-line all the time draft mantra". You're either not reading the posts carefully enough, or you have what seems to be a significant problem with reading comprehension. Any subtlety, any nuance as to the rationale behind drafting one of the best Guard draft prospects in a decade in the top ten- in a year in which top playmakers are scarce and Blackmon/Caliborne will most likely be gone by the time we pick- has consistently gone right over your head. Your belief that a TE (seriously, Orson Charles?) would be a better pick than DeCastro speaks volumes and reeks of ignorance.

In the NFL draft you can't always get what you want- that's the way it goes. But sometimes, if you try real hard, and look at tremendous players who would provide value at need positions like David DeCstro, you get what you need. It's an anomaly, it doesn't happen very often at all. Everyone who follows the draft to any significant degree knows this, there's no mystery there. Props, of course, to Keith and Mick. "Life" by KR, btw, was a heck of a read.

So, to sum up- no one is promoting "O-line, all the time", so get that out of your head. DeCastro is a once in a blue moon OG prospect. We need an OG. Quality playmakers will most likely be scarce by the time the Dolphins pick in the first round. My focus is on Brandon Weeden. I don't think that Weeden will be available by the time we pick in the second round. I'd like to see the Fins trade down in the 1st and secure Weeden- despite the ever present age issue, I think that he's simply THAT good. I don't want to go defense with the 1st pick, but I'd rather go D than select Alshon Jeffery. Michael Floyd would give me something to think about. Whether or not you take Weeden with a hight 1st rd pick, given his age, has been troubling me for some time. And if we end up picking at #7 I think that David DeCastro would be a solid pick because, as I've said from the beginning, he's a tremendous prospect who, despite the less than ideal position that he plays in terms of being a high draft pick, he offers a need/value proposition that's quite a bit higher than the playmakers who are likely to be available at #7. Including Orson Charles.

Ya but O.Charles might run a fast 40, lol!

 

[hoops]

vernon davis got into the top 10 cause he blew away the combine...that 40 time he floated absolutely helped him get up to where he was drafted which i want to say it was #6 overall if i recall correctly...that and those jaw dropping test #s

do i see a similar rise in orson charles during the draft eval process??? i can see him testing very well and working his way up yes but into the top 10...doubtful...dwayne allens the guy at te who probably goes in round 1 if anyone provided he doesn't come in at less than 6 ft 3...he's a first round talent in my book...and coby fleener probably is another guy who's gonna test really damn well and go pretty high...maybe top 50...orson charles could fall in that category if he test as well as i think many expect him to

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

LOL. Great. Another 7+ gamer on the horizon. You know that's what always happens to me. I see a guy I like and I'm compelled by some sort of OCD to just keep watching more and more.

I don't know that you'll ever run across a guy that's more fun to sit down and watch than Melvin Ingram. He does so many things that you just don't hardly ever see.

He's so good and so coordinated with his eyes/hands, he plays on the 'hands team' on special teams. He jumped up in the air and snagged the onside kick to secure the win against Georgia.

He played tailback in highschool... along with quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, punter, kicker, and long snapper.

He's intercepting passes dropping into coverage... including one against Auburn where he jumped in front of Lutzenkirchen to pick it off on a fake field goal attempt.

He's rushing from 3-point stance lined up at DE and DT... along with standing up and playing in space from a 2-point stance.

He's scoring 68 yard touchdowns on fake punts. You really need to watch that play. He looked like a Heisman Trophy candidate at RB on that play. Unbelievable athletic ability.

It seemed like there was 3 of him on the field against Bama last year. He was all over McElroy in that game where we gave up 7 sacks. He's the only guy I've ever seen beat James Carpenter straight up to the inside of his post leg.

Ingram led his team in sacks last year and 2nd on the team in TFL's despite playing only around half the defensive snaps.

He's worth the price of a ticket all by himself for South Carolina fans.

 

[jim1]

Ya but O.Charles might run a fast 40, lol!

I hear you. I like Orson Charles. He has some compelling skills, but I have some doubts as to his blocking ability. But the issue at hand is where do you look to draft him- I'm thinking that an aggressive position would be in the 3rd round. I'm also on record as having interest in Dwayne Allen. But in the first round, ahead of David DeCastro? 'Nuff said.

 

[ckparrothead]

I don't know that you'll ever run across a guy that's more fun to sit down and watch than Melvin Ingram. He does so many things that you just don't hardly ever see.

He's so good and so coordinated with his eyes/hands, he plays on the 'hands team' on special teams. He jumped up in the air and snagged the onside kick to secure the win against Georgia.

He played tailback in highschool... along with quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, punter, kicker, and long snapper.

He's intercepting passes dropping into coverage... including one against Auburn where he jumped in front of Lutzenkirchen to pick it off on a fake field goal attempt.

He's rushing from 3-point stance lined up at DE and DT... along with standing up and playing in space from a 2-point stance.

He's scoring 68 yard touchdowns on fake punts. You really need to watch that play. He looked like a Heisman Trophy candidate at RB on that play. Unbelievable athletic ability.

It seemed like there was 3 of him on the field against Bama last year. He was all over McElroy in that game where we gave up 7 sacks. He's the only guy I've ever seen beat James Carpenter straight up to the inside of his post leg.

Ingram led his team in sacks last year and 2nd on the team in TFL's despite playing only around half the defensive snaps.

He's worth the price of a ticket all by himself for South Carolina fans.

I can't declare anything without having sat down and watched him, but the guy you're describing has top 10 potential.

Just the fact that he's on the hands team on special teams already had me piqued, but the all-around versatility you describe is pretty uncommon and speaks extremely well for him.

 

[ckparrothead]

LOL I just watched the fake punt 68 yard touchdown. That's pretty surreal. He looked like Brandon Jacobs out there. I mean seriously, I might actually think about a guy like that taking goal line hand-offs on offense.

Favorite part about that was the two announcers, one I think was Millen, in shocked disbelief that this was Melvin Ingram, and actually convincing themselves that they were watching the 6'0" and 193 lbs DeAngelo Smith until Ingram showed them the back of his jersey with his name written on it. LOL.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

LOL I just watched the fake punt 68 yard touchdown. That's pretty surreal. He looked like Brandon Jacobs out there. I mean seriously, I might actually think about a guy like that taking goal line hand-offs on offense.

Favorite part about that was the two announcers, one I think was Millen, in shocked disbelief that this was Melvin Ingram, and actually convincing themselves that they were watching the 6'0" and 193 lbs DeAngelo Smith until Ingram showed them the back of his jersey with his name written on it. LOL.

Looked like a Heisman Trophy run you'd see for a running back... I believe that's Brandon Boykin he's juking and giving the stiff arm in the open field...

I think he does have top 10 ability.


If I were to knock him, it would be his first step when he's in a 3-point stance. He's a little slow off the snap and doesn't anticipate the snap well.

However, I don't think it's any slower than Andre Branch's first step, which is terribly slow for such a hyped DE.

 

[ckparrothead]

Alright this is just YouTube watching, not a substitute for real film watching, but on the other hand a lot of these YouTube videos that are going up have patterned a lot after the old videos I started making two years ago where you're seeing guys on every play not just highlights. Among the videos is his entire 2011 Auburn game, I believe every snap.

Couple of thoughts:

1. What he did against Alabama is all the more impressive considering how consistently slow he was off the snap, as well as his read responsibilities which saw him putting his hand on the ground a full helmet more off the ball than the rest of his line mates.

2. If you can beat Onterrio McCalebb to the off tackle lane and force him to bounce it further outside, you're a fast human.

3. All the stuff you mentioned stands out. The burst to the ball when he pulls the trigger, the hand use, the vicious spin, athleticism, awareness to peel off and chase the tailback before the QB even gets the ball out, or to find Lutzenkirchen on that fake FG, very impressive. Very strong player, great 2nd and 3rd steps. Not unlike Graham, has some trouble getting all gumby-like and cutting back up the field to chase a guy that cut inside of him. Might have a better top line than Upshaw.

4. I think I know why I haven't heard much about him yet. That slowness off the snap persists throughout the tape both years. The thing I'm not sure other people may understand is that it probably has to do with his responsibilities. If he played in a more attacking role, he'd be even more productive from a pass rushing standpoint, like Brandon Graham was at Michigan.

5. That said, I'm not all that conflicted about where I'd put him. He's a more mobile version of Brandon Graham. I'd put him at OLB in a 3-4. I like the look of him from a stand up position. You're always going to be able to find him some snaps where he can just pin his ears back and be an attack dog. But he's trained to be a more aware player and I'd want to take advantage of that, as well as his ability to hoof it. The trigger and burst to the football from a standing position is special. If he's always got his hand in the dirt, he's not really using that.

 

[ckparrothead]

Looked like a Heisman Trophy run you'd see for a running back... I believe that's Brandon Boykin he's juking and giving the stiff arm in the open field...

I think he does have top 10 ability.


If I were to knock him, it would be his first step when he's in a 3-point stance. He's a little slow off the snap and doesn't anticipate the snap well.

However, I don't think it's any slower than Andre Branch's first step, which is terribly slow for such a hyped DE.

Let's be honest. Brandon Boykin had absolutely zero interest in making that tackle. It wasn't quite the Sebastian Janikowski we saw the other weekend where he "tried" to tackle Clyde Gates...but it wasn't a meaty attempt, either. Still, hell of an impressive run by Ingram. Looked like Mark Ingram, but faster.

That's funny I just got done talking about the first step in the psot above. I see we agree on that. But are you with me that his first step is more a function of his role and responsibilities? I watch him and I think that if you pare down his responsibilities and allow him to attack, he'd be a lot quicker off the ball. There are some snaps when you see that.

 

[3rdandinches]

vernon davis got into the top 10 cause he blew away the combine...that 40 time he floated absolutely helped him get up to where he was drafted which i want to say it was #6 overall if i recall correctly...that and those jaw dropping test #s

do i see a similar rise in orson charles during the draft eval process??? i can see him testing very well and working his way up yes but into the top 10...doubtful...dwayne allens the guy at te who probably goes in round 1 if anyone provided he doesn't come in at less than 6 ft 3...he's a first round talent in my book...and coby fleener probably is another guy who's gonna test really damn well and go pretty high...maybe top 50...orson charles could fall in that category if he test as well as i think many expect him to

V.Davis was considered the best TE prospect in college football and one of the best TE prospects in a while. He was already a mid 1st round prospect, the combine just proved the `hype`and pushed him up to a top 10 pick. There is not a single TE prospect this year in that same boat, they are at best graded 2nd round and a great combine might sneak them into the bottom of the 1st. That is considerably different then what feltch is trying to argue.

 

[Generic Name]

V.Davis was considered the best TE prospect in college football and one of the best TE prospects in a while. He was already a mid 1st round prospect, the combine just proved the `hype`and pushed him up to a top 10 pick. There is not a single TE prospect this year in that same boat, they are at best graded 2nd round and a great combine might sneak them into the bottom of the 1st. That is considerably different then what feltch is trying to argue.

I don't think Davis was ever considered "one of the best TE prospects in awhile" and he rose from higher than mid-first from December to April of that year. Dwayne Allen is considered one of the best TE prospects this year so it is possible, no, that he or Charles could experience a similar meteoric rise up the charts that Davis did. Point is you do not know enough to grade the tight end prospects right now. It is ignorant and arrogant to think you can put final draft grades on these guys in December.

what am I trying to argue? You keep trying to point out that I'd take Charles or Allen with the #7 pick. Never said that. I'd try like hell to get one of the QB's and short of that or Blackmon I'd take the best available defender. all I'm saying to you flat Earthers is that there's no way in hell Miami should take your guy deCastro this year in the top 10. I don't care what his draft grade is, it is irrelevant if Miami wants to become a good team again.

I will argue that a good TE has more value than a great guard does these days and I'd rather trade down and take either TE than pick a guard in the first round.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Let's be honest. Brandon Boykin had absolutely zero interest in making that tackle. It wasn't quite the Sebastian Janikowski we saw the other weekend where he "tried" to tackle Clyde Gates...but it wasn't a meaty attempt, either. Still, hell of an impressive run by Ingram. Looked like Mark Ingram, but faster.

That's funny I just got done talking about the first step in the psot above. I see we agree on that. But are you with me that his first step is more a function of his role and responsibilities? I watch him and I think that if you pare down his responsibilities and allow him to attack, he'd be a lot quicker off the ball. There are some snaps when you see that.

Not really. Although I do agree that I like what I see out of Ingram from a 2-point stance more than I do with his hand on the ground.

Ellis Johnson's base defense is more of a nickel package in the 4-2-5 variety. He doesn't like to blitz. South Carolina isn't a blitzing defense.

They rely solely on the front 4 to attack every snap and get into the backfield to get after the quarterback. He likes his linebackers to have the responsibility in run support and underneath coverage. It's not really a gap control scheme.

The 'spur' linebacker is actually more of a safety who's dropped down, which is what you see a lot in most 4-2-5 base defenses. Different coaches call it different things (rover, spur, etc.) but he's the guy responsible for the alignment of the defensive front and getting the numbers correct.

If his lack of an elite first step was a responsibility cap, he wouldn't stay in his stance so long after the ball has been snapped... he'd be playing more of a 4i technique.


I think his lack of a first step is essentially what kept him off the field, and from becoming a full time starter as a Junior in Ellis' defense, and I think you touched on why we haven't heard more hype in Ingram's favor from the talking heads.

I'd line him up on the strongside at OLB in a base 3-4 and move him around in 4 man fronts, nickel packages, etc. He's too talented, too athletic, and too disruptive to keep off the field on 3rd downs.

He's probably going to end up a surprise for somebody. I'd take him.