Second Round Trading Down - What's the real story?

[spiketex]

Miami traded down twice in the second round and picked up some additional draft picks (4th and a 5th) before selecting Jarvis Landry. I'm interested in getting some other impressions. Do you think that Hickey had his heart set on Billy Turner but knew that he was reaching in the 2nd round so he progressively traded down? Ultimately, it looks like Hickey couldn't resist Landry - he was just too good, so he took him and then immediately traded the 4th acquired to move up and get Billy Turner in the 3rd.
Alternate theory is that maybe we wanted Allen Robinson who was selected just a little before Landry? My hunch is that Landry was not the plan but he was too good to resist. Welcome your thoughts...

 

[ITS!MATEO]

I really believe that he wanted Morgan Moses, but that's just my opinion....

 

[rickd13]

Miami traded down twice in the second round and picked up some additional draft picks (4th and a 5th) before selecting Jarvis Landry. I'm interested in getting some other impressions. Do you think that Hickey had his heart set on Billy Turner but knew that he was reaching in the 2nd round so he progressively traded down? Ultimately, it looks like Hickey couldn't resist Landry - he was just too good, so he took him and then immediately traded the 4th acquired to move up and get Billy Turner in the 3rd.
Alternate theory is that maybe we wanted Allen Robinson who was selected just a little before Landry? My hunch is that Landry was not the plan but he was too good to resist. Welcome your thoughts...

I think that is exactly what happened. I think he was trading back with Miller as his target, but was surprised that Landry was still there.

 

[Hayden Fox]

I love Robinson, but I wonder if they simply rolled the dice that Landry would still be there and it was worth getting an additional pick.

 

[ONole1]

Yes I think he had Turner pegged just like he did James. I thought both players he locked in on an reached. I saw a quote where Hickey even said as soon as they drafted Landry they focused on Turner. But no more crying over spilled milk. I think Turner will win the starting LG job has the skill set to eventually play LT.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I don't think you ever move down with the idea that you can get one player later. IMO, that is just not wise. You move down when there are a group of players you like equally well and it doesn't matter to you which one you get. You move up when you have identified a player that stands out and you don't want to risk losing him.

 

[Zounds]

My guess is that Bill Turner was a must have for Hickey/Philbin/Benton, so they wanted to acquire a few picks so they could trade up and get him in the 3rd.

 

[NRA]

Allen Robinson who was selected just a little before Landry? My hunch is that Landry was not the plan but he was too good to resist. Welcome your thoughts...

no. allen robertson isnt the wr that landry is. it would have been landry no matter what, weather robinson was sitting there or not.

this ridiculous 4.7 thing has really gotten into peoples heads for some reason. he has ALWAYS been around 4.5 and he runs ONE SET with a BAD HAMSTRING and he is a slow bum.

not aimed at you SPIKE, its just a general statement. peoples heads are clouded by that and still sore hickey didnt trade our draft to move up and take martin. jarvis landry WILL START and he will be a real contender for OPOTY and could win it. he will get a LOT of balls thrown his way as tanny likes those intermediate throws. he'll have the numbers.

it would have cost us 3 pics out of our draft and probably something next year to move up high enough to SECURE landing martin. he made the smart move. and when he fell, NO ONE knew the cowboys were going o-line. NO ONE! the jets were going calvin pryor or wr. by that time i am sure hickey and others thought he was landing in their lap. but i will say this....., i am not so sure they would have taken martin over james. he seemed to be the guy they wanted and it looks like filling the right tackle spot first was their goal. everyone wanted martin as a guard in the nfl. hey, hickey turned down a couple trade offers for more pics and he didnt budge. james was probably the pic all the way.

conviction. a plan. thought. how refreshing!!!

 

[BlueFin]

My guess is that Bill Turner was a must have for Hickey/Philbin/Benton, so they wanted to acquire a few picks so they could trade up and get him in the 3rd.

Yes...I think they felt they could get a top wideout and still get Turner in round 3...with the extra picks why risk losing him ?

 

[jim1]

no. allen robertson isnt the wr that landry is. it would have been landry no matter what, weather robinson was sitting there or not.

this ridiculous 4.7 thing has really gotten into peoples heads for some reason. he has ALWAYS been around 4.5 and he runs ONE SET with a BAD HAMSTRING and he is a slow bum.

The Cowboys wanted Aaron Donald or Ryan Shazier at #16 and took Zack Martin because he provided value there.

not aimed at you SPIKE, its just a general statement. peoples heads are clouded by that and still sore hickey didnt trade our draft to move up and take martin. jarvis landry WILL START and he will be a real contender for OPOTY and could win it. he will get a LOT of balls thrown his way as tanny likes those intermediate throws. he'll have the numbers.

it would have cost us 3 pics out of our draft and probably something next year to move up high enough to SECURE landing martin. he made the smart move. and when he fell, NO ONE knew the cowboys were going o-line. NO ONE! the jets were going calvin pryor or wr. by that time i am sure hickey and others thought he was landing in their lap. but i will say this....., i am not so sure they would have taken martin over james. he seemed to be the guy they wanted and it looks like filling the right tackle spot first was their goal. everyone wanted martin as a guard in the nfl. hey, hickey turned down a couple trade offers for more pics and he didnt budge. james was probably the pic all the way.

conviction. a plan. thought. how refreshing!!!

The Cowboys wanted Aaron Donald or Ryan Shazier at #16 and took Zack Martin because he provided value there. The short version is that I can't imagine anyone drafting James ahead of Martin to play OT- the fact that Martin is versatile enough to play Guard is a bonus and reflective of his ability and talent. The arm length issue is overblown imo, I'll leave it at that. James is a good player and a good fit, but he's no Zack Martin. He's a 2nd round talent who was bumped up to the mid 1st round (ie reached for) because he filled a huge need for us, bottom line.

We all have our own opinions, but let's see the opinion of someone who actually counts on the subject, Ozzie Newsome:

Four of the Ravens' first eight picks were compensatory selections that couldn't be traded, making it difficult to maneuver. It was an elusive pursuit for the Ravens, who acknowledged before the draft that right tackle was one of their greatest needs.

"You are correct," Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said. "The way the board was stacked, you could see that three or four went right away at the top of the first round. So, it wasn't stacked very well in that case. We were not going to just reach down and just take a player at the tackle position."
Many analysts characterized the Miami Dolphins' pick of offensive tackle Ja'Wuan James, from the University of Tennessee, two picks after Mosley as a reach, but they're trying to rebuild their offensive line.


Read more: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/...t-0512-20140511,0,6317789.story#ixzz31msPWhAa

 

[j-off-her-doll]

The Cowboys wanted Aaron Donald or Ryan Shazier at #16 and took Zack Martin because he provided value there. The short version is that I can't imagine anyone drafting James ahead of Martin to play OT- the fact that Martin is versatile enough to play Guard is a bonus and reflective of his ability and talent. The arm length issue is overblown imo, I'll leave it at that. James is a good player and a good fit, but he's no Zack Martin. He's a 2nd round talent who was bumped up to the mid 1st round (ie reached for) because he filled a huge need for us, bottom line.

We all have our own opinions, but let's see the opinion of someone who actually counts on the subject, Ozzie Newsome:

Four of the Ravens' first eight picks were compensatory selections that couldn't be traded, making it difficult to maneuver. It was an elusive pursuit for the Ravens, who acknowledged before the draft that right tackle was one of their greatest needs.

"You are correct," Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said. "The way the board was stacked, you could see that three or four went right away at the top of the first round. So, it wasn't stacked very well in that case. We were not going to just reach down and just take a player at the tackle position."
Many analysts characterized the Miami Dolphins' pick of offensive tackle Ja'Wuan James, from the University of Tennessee, two picks after Mosley as a reach, but they're trying to rebuild their offensive line.


Read more: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/...t-0512-20140511,0,6317789.story#ixzz31msPWhAa

Of people who actually watched each play, I think about 25% (very rough estimate) would take James over Martin at RT. I'd be part of that 25%. As for Mosley, I think we saw his stock elevated because the lack of depth at ILB. I'm not at all a fan of that pick for Baltimore.

 

[NRA]

I really believe that he wanted Morgan Moses, but that's just my opinion....

why would you think that MATEO? we run a zbs where you have to be athletic and able to get to the second level and lock on to your man and steer him where you need him to go.

go re read the draft reports. his weekness is getting to the second level and locking on his man. slow getting off. last thing you need for a zbs lineman. he is a power block scheme ot, period. plus, we already have an LT and moses would be a newby on the rt side. hickey wasnt going to do a project and close his eyes and hope for the best [see jeff ireland]. he feels he couldnt make mistakes rebuilding this line and the players he chose for the line HAD TO FIT THE SCHEME and had played the position. he was NEVER going moses. here is what one scouting report noted on him..... .

lacks the ability to stop and start with suddeness or REDIRECT IN A SHORT AREA. to often gets OFF BALANCE IN PASS PROTECTION and is a waist bender. NOT ATHLETIC. struggles to snap into defenders at the SECOND LEVEL. INDECISIVE IN SPACE and lacks conviction as a lead blocker. will have trouble with speed

how exactly does he fit the zbs mateo? he is a HORRIBLE fit in our scheme. every trait an o-lineman needs in a zbs scheme are his WEAKNESSES!! they were never going moses weather james was there or not.


kuonandjio was even worse. many wanted him to but but he is sloooow getting off. one mags scout said he was often so slow getting into his block it was like he didnt know the snap counts. slow footed and not good at getting to the second level [most mags said that]. NOT a fit at zbs. PRO FOOTBALLS DRAFT MAG report said, "slow off the snap. to often choppy sliding into pass protection as if he doesnt know the snap count leading to all kinds of problems dealing with speed rushers. kick slide is short and sloppy and gets beat around the edge. ". doesnt get any worse for zbs scheme lineman. he was not getting chosen either. again, hickey made the right choice.... by NOT taking him.

people just keep ignoring the scheme we run. its not a plug and play like the big ugly meet balls are in a power scheme. you have to be athletic, get off the line and into the next level FAST and lock your man. like moses, he didnt come close to meeting what benton wants. people should appreciate that we have a staff now who THINKS. WHO ARE PRECISE and have a PLAN. ireland never got that. he never brought in guys that fit the scheme and thats why this line was so up and down all the time culminating in last years melt down. they are now bringing in guys who fit. and if you look at the scouting reports on james and turner and the TE lynch, they ALL share the same traits........., excellent feet. able to mirror defenders. quick of the snap. able to get to the second level quick and steer their man. athletic and tough.

thats NO coincidence. that was the plan and they got the guys who fit the scheme. if you go by what we needed and how hickey handled this draft, its a B+++. if a person is sore because we didnt take the players people wanted and expected, its a bust. but i will say again, this is going to go down as THE draft that was ground zero for the new era of the miami dolphins.

 

[jim1]

Of people who actually watched each play, I think about 25% (very rough estimate) would take James over Martin at RT. I'd be part of that 25%. As for Mosley, I think we saw his stock elevated because the lack of depth at ILB. I'm not at all a fan of that pick for Baltimore.

Before the Miami Herald report a few weeks that Miami rated James as a 1st rd OT here's the percentage of people who saw James as better than Martin- zero. Before the Barry Jackson story came out iirc I saw one guy mention James as a potential Dolphin's 1st rd pick, in a trade down to squeeze some value out of the reach. I'm not a big fan of the Mosely pick either, but I think that Newsome was spot on wth the OT position in the draft this year. martin is a better player tha James, bottom line. At Tackle, at Guard, and Center, take your pick. He's better at run blocking, better at pass blocking and people like to sound smart by talking about his arm length when they're all of one inch shorter than Taylor Lewan's.

My best guess is that James will be for Miami what he is and what we need at RT- solid and steady. Imo we should have traded down if he was the targets, the contrary arguments don;t interest me. The target at #29 and below was Brandin Cooks, then Johnny Manziel. The market was there for an easy extra 3rd, we didn't take it. Then we traded a 4th to take an athletic LT to play OG. I'm ok with the draft, I'm ok with James, but bottom line we could have had the same draft and EASILY added OG Trai Turner, a true Guard, and WR Martavis Bryant to the haul. That's not as much wishful thinking as obvious realities- a couple of teams were looking to drop a 3rd quicker than panties on prom night and the trade up to get Billy Turner struck me as unecessary. Billy Turner struck me as a very talented but raw Tackle to be given a year or two to mature, not a player to move to Guard. We'll see what happens, but personally I would have drafted Trai Turner over Billy Turner, especially if filling a need at OG was my goal.

 

[greasyObnoxious]

i think Troy Niklas was the target in round 2. after he got gobbled up, we traded down.

 

[roy_miami]

I don't think he was targeting Turner with the trade downs, maybe Turner was in his group of players that he would have taken in a worst case scenario with our second round pick though. Its impossible to say what his board looked like but my guess is his best case scenario played out, meaning if he had a list of 5 or 6 players he liked for the end of the second Landry was at the top and Turner was at the bottom and the trading got us both with an extra pick.