Serious question for the anti-Tannehill crowd

[truedolfan57]

I could ask the opposite questions of the folks who seem to adore this QB that has never won a damn thing for us.

Very simple. What does he have to do to get you to lose faith in him?

Keep missing playoffs? Ints? Sacks?

What will it take to get you to admit that he is very mediocre at best and is holding this team back?

A 2-12 season? Cause Henne never had one and he was pretty bad.

If the Phins start this season on something like a 2-6 run and are eliminated from contention before Thanksgiving will you still want Tannehill?

holding the team back? he's been a starter for all of 2 season. you act like he's been a long term vet like tony romo. I've seen tannehill perform well his rookie season, considering he had no real WR threats his rookie year. He's also shown he can play with the best of teams his second year, with a piss poor oline and actually showed improvement as a whole. I think if the team had gone 8-8 with even an average oline all season long, then there would be a better case on tannehill being just an average QB, and his ceiling not as high as anticipated.

 

[whizafriz]

I'm more concerned with the offense itself this season. Tannehill is obviously the main piece, but it starts at Lazor calling the plays and getting good rhythms going for running/passing. Without that, it won't really matter how good Ryan does if the other players aren't clicking or fooling the defense into formations and mismatches they can then exploit.

 

[SSnowman]

So if Tannehill is going to earn my trust back he needs to win. If the defense plays as well as it did last season, anything short of a 10 win season is a disgrace. Im starting to think this defense could be even better than last seasons. If it is, they may carry us to the playoffs unless Tannehill starts throwing more INTs.

The Dolphins defense is almost as inconsistent as the offense. How many times have we seen the offense score only to watch the defense give up a 90 yard 2 minute drive to negate everything the offense did. I don't care what the stats say, the Dolphins defense hasn't been reliable for years.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I could ask the opposite questions of the folks who seem to adore this QB that has never won a damn thing for us.

Very simple. What does he have to do to get you to lose faith in him?

Keep missing playoffs? Ints? Sacks?

What will it take to get you to admit that he is very mediocre at best and is holding this team back?

A 2-12 season? Cause Henne never had one and he was pretty bad.

If the Phins start this season on something like a 2-6 run and are eliminated from contention before Thanksgiving will you still want Tannehill?

Very simple. Lack of improvement as the team around him improves. There are plenty of ways to measure the performance of the OL, receivers, and running game that are not directly tied to the QB. If he gets the protection and running game support that Henne got and puts up Henne-like numbers (or even Tannehill-like numbers), I'll be very concerned.

In 2009, the Dolphins allowed 34 sacks and ran the ball 509 times while attempting 546 passes. Henne still only managed a 75 QB rating.

In 2010, they added Brandon Marshall. They still ran the ball 445 times while attempting 555 passes. Henne's QB rating stayed at 75.

By comparison, in 2013 the Dolphins only ran the ball 349 times while attempting 596 passes. They allowed a ridiculous 58 sacks. Tannehill's QB rating was 81.7.

If the OL is a train wreck this season, I don't want to hear about Tannehill taking the next step. I want to hear about finally fixing the god damn offensive line.

 

[WVDolphan]

holding the team back? he's been a starter for all of 2 season. you act like he's been a long term vet like tony romo. I've seen tannehill perform well his rookie season, considering he had no real WR threats his rookie year. He's also shown he can play with the best of teams his second year, with a piss poor oline and actually showed improvement as a whole. I think if the team had gone 8-8 with even an average oline all season long, then there would be a better case on tannehill being just an average QB, and his ceiling not as high as anticipated.

I gave him a pass on his rookie year no doubt. We did not have much to work with on offense and the kid was a rookie. I did not expect him to be great.

Last year however, we had a very good defense that presented many opportunities for wins in which our QB failed to take advantage. I did not expect him to be great last season. It was his 2nd year. But, be fair. He left a ton of points on the board and had plenty to work with to generate some points. Any decent QB gets us to 10 wins with that defense. That is just a fact.

He has another opportunity this year. I hope he comes through. Again, if the defense plays to the same level it did last season, there is simply no excuse for not making the playoffs in a very weak AFC. We have a ton of weapons at the WR position and the OL should be decent because we have some vets in there who can do a decent job as well as a stud LT. No excuses. It is time for Tannehill to **** or get off the pot as Miko may say.

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

Very simple. What does he have to do to get you to lose faith in him?

Good question. I would need to see him as the limiting factor in the offense. I don't currently see him as that.

Now, you can agree or disagree, but here is what I see when I look at our 2013 offense:

1. Terrible pass protection. That's not even entirely on the OL. The number of whiffed blocks by backs and tight ends was disgusting. I have a low opinion of Knowshon Moreno, but I fully understand why they brought him in and then drafted that totally unimpressive TE from UGA. The backs and tight ends couldn't ****ing pass block. You look at the sack total and see a QB who sucked at avoiding the rush. I put it on the pass pro.

I fully expect that when the pass pro improves this season, you will see a lot fewer sacks and he will look like he has better pocket presence. If not... then yep, I will start to lose faith.

2. Lousy offensive concepts on the whole. You can talk about situational playcalling -- how many 3rd and 1 plays did we fail to convert because we got cute with stupid play design instead of just running QB sneaks? QB sneaks worked on the what, two occasions that we tried? We lost drives because Mike Sherman had a stick up his ass about running a stretch play with Daniel Thomas instead of just having his 6'4" QB SNEAK THE DAN BALL behind his pro bowl center.

But mostly, we had what, the second fewest rushing attempts in the league? To paraphrase Jim Mora, we couldn't run the ball, we didn't try to run the ball... ... instead we asked our QB to fit fastballs through hoops. It was stunning to sit down and watch a few Eagles games to see what tendencies Bill Lazor might have picked up on from Chip Kelly. They run the ball a lot and their entire offensive philosophy is to move the ball away from defenders. It's crazy how many completions Nick Foles had where nobody was within even like four yards of his receiver. Lots of motion and lots of use of horizontal space in the passing game. Also, the Eagle had a tendency to run the ball more in traditional passing downs (3rd and more than 1) which kept teams guessing.

If I see Lazor taking some of those concepts and giving Tannehill that kind of support and opportunity, I expect 4,200 yards, 30+ touchdowns, and fewer interceptions. Period.

3. Limited skill personnel. Brandon Gibson was JAG in St. Louis. He became our second best weapon before he got hurt. Brian Hartline -- I love the guy -- but he had some brutal drops and his inability to make plays after the catch is a constant source of discussion here. Mike Wallace, no comment. I'm holding out hope that he will be used better in our new offense.

Who do we have at TE after Clay, who isn't really a traditional in-line TE? Certainly not a big bodied seam threat...

So if we use Mike Wallace more effectively and Gibson stays healthy and Rishard Matthews makes the strides we are hearing about, and Jarvis Landry is as good as we think he can be, I still won't think we have the best weapons in the NFL, but we will have enough that I expect better from the QB.


You can call this stuff excuses, and that's fine. It might be excuses. But I'm just being honest here. That's how I saw our team last year, and I do predict improvements in those three areas this year. So I expect a big year from Ryan Tannehill. If I don't see that improvement? I'm going to say that he was just another bad cog in an offense full of crap.

 

[psfign]

I could ask the opposite questions of the folks who seem to adore this QB that has never won a damn thing for us.

Very simple. What does he have to do to get you to lose faith in him?

Keep missing playoffs? Ints? Sacks?

What will it take to get you to admit that he is very mediocre at best and is holding this team back?

A 2-12 season? Cause Henne never had one and he was pretty bad.

If the Phins start this season on something like a 2-6 run and are eliminated from contention before Thanksgiving will you still want Tannehill?

The problem I see here is that you look at him and see all his errors and for some reason think he'll always be the same QB without improving. Some of us can admit that he's not yet an elite QB, but also are encouraged that he has a strong chance of being one. It seems to me that you assume we already think he is CURRENTLY a elite QB. That's just not the case (with most of us).

So the fact that you arent sold on his abilities is fine, but don't assume that those of us on RT wagon already think he's elite now. He's clearly not. But I believe he can and should show even more improvement from last year to this year. If not, lets bring in competition!

 

[nyjunc]

The Dolphins defense is almost as inconsistent as the offense. How many times have we seen the offense score only to watch the defense give up a 90 yard 2 minute drive to negate everything the offense did. I don't care what the stats say, the Dolphins defense hasn't been reliable for years.

they had some moments like that but they also kept you in a lot of games and won you a lot of games.

they kept you in vs. Bal, Buf, at Buf, vs. NYJ, at TB. They won at Cle, Cin, SD, at NYJ, at Pitt

 

[Tureo]

I need him to step up in big games and to put the team on his back and take them to the playoffs. I do believe that this is possible. I am not a Tanney hater because he has done nothing quite so horrible that we should hate him. At the same time he hasn't done anything great either. He has had moments of both good and bad which equals out to average imo. He may have potential and that is great but currently he is average

 

[nyjunc]

I need him to step up in big games and to put the team on his back and take them to the playoffs. I do believe that this is possible. I am not a Tanney hater because he has done nothing quite so horrible that we should hate him. At the same time he hasn't done anything great either. He has had moments of both good and bad which equals out to average imo. He may have potential and that is great but currently he is average

I wouldn't even say he has to put a team on his back, that may be unrealistic but he has to use the talent he has and make plays in key spots, can't miss those big play opportunities. He's not far away, he has ability.

 

[SSnowman]

they had some moments like that but they also kept you in a lot of games and won you a lot of games.

they kept you in vs. Bal, Buf, at Buf, vs. NYJ, at TB. They won at Cle, Cin, SD, at NYJ, at Pitt

It's funny that you bring up Baltimore because it instantly makes me think of this drive:

	C.Sturgis kicks 68 yards from MIA 35 to BLT -3. D.Thompson to BLT 20 for 23 yards (R.Stanford).	6	13
1st and 10 at BAL 20	R.Rice left tackle to BLT 24 for 4 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 24	R.Rice right tackle to BLT 25 for 1 yard (K.Misi).	 	 
3rd and 5 at BAL 25	(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco left tackle to BLT 39 for 14 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
1st and 10 at BAL 39	R.Rice up the middle to BLT 43 for 4 yards (D.Shelby).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 43	(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to D.Thompson. MIA-N.Carroll was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. PENALTY on MIA-N.Carroll, Defensive Pass Interference, 38 yards, enforced at BLT 43 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short middle to T.Smith (B.Grimes).	 	 
2nd and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith. PENALTY on MIA-B.Grimes, Defensive Pass Interference, 17 yards, enforced at MIA 19 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 2 at MIA 2	R.Rice up the middle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.	12	13
	J.Tucker extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Cox, Holder-S.Koch.	13	13
 	J.Tucker kicks 65 yards from BLT 35 to MIA 0. M.Thigpen to MIA 18 for 18 yards (M.Huff).

Doesn't look like a defense keeping us in the game to me. This was when the Dolphins were ahead by a touchdown btw.

 

[WVDolphan]

they had some moments like that but they also kept you in a lot of games and won you a lot of games.

they kept you in vs. Bal, Buf, at Buf, vs. NYJ, at TB. They won at Cle, Cin, SD, at NYJ, at Pitt

Bingo. It just demonstrates that even an average QB could have lead last years team to a ton of wins. Hell, if we win just 3 of those games where the defense gave us a great opportunity to win, that makes 11 wins.

At TB, and home games vs the Bills and Jets were disgusting losses. The QB had every opportunity to win all 3 of those games but, failed miserably. So many points were left on the field in each of those games. It was not as if the opposing defense was lights out in those games. The QB simply failed to execute in those games, missing wide open plays for chunk yardage and TDs.

Even in the 6 games you did not mention, the defense had a great hand in winning. The QB certainly did a decent job in the 6 you did not mention, but the defense deserves credit for coming through in most of those games. Shutting Andrew Luck down at Indianapolis was huge. Our offense did basically nothing in the 2nd half of that game. The defense also came up with the huge stop vs Tom Brady when he had a chance to beat us in the best game Tannehill has ever played. That was not a game where Tannehill put us on his shoulders and carried us to victory. The defense deserves their share of the credit for that win.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

It's funny that you bring up Baltimore because it instantly makes me think of this drive:

	C.Sturgis kicks 68 yards from MIA 35 to BLT -3. D.Thompson to BLT 20 for 23 yards (R.Stanford).	6	13
1st and 10 at BAL 20	R.Rice left tackle to BLT 24 for 4 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 24	R.Rice right tackle to BLT 25 for 1 yard (K.Misi).	 	 
3rd and 5 at BAL 25	(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco left tackle to BLT 39 for 14 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
1st and 10 at BAL 39	R.Rice up the middle to BLT 43 for 4 yards (D.Shelby).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 43	(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to D.Thompson. MIA-N.Carroll was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. PENALTY on MIA-N.Carroll, Defensive Pass Interference, 38 yards, enforced at BLT 43 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short middle to T.Smith (B.Grimes).	 	 
2nd and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith. PENALTY on MIA-B.Grimes, Defensive Pass Interference, 17 yards, enforced at MIA 19 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 2 at MIA 2	R.Rice up the middle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.	12	13
	J.Tucker extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Cox, Holder-S.Koch.	13	13
 	J.Tucker kicks 65 yards from BLT 35 to MIA 0. M.Thigpen to MIA 18 for 18 yards (M.Huff).

Doesn't look like a defense keeping us in the game to me. This was when the Dolphins were ahead by a touchdown btw.

The defense scored a TD in that game to put us up in the first place.

 

[nyjunc]

It's funny that you bring up Baltimore because it instantly makes me think of this drive:

	C.Sturgis kicks 68 yards from MIA 35 to BLT -3. D.Thompson to BLT 20 for 23 yards (R.Stanford).	6	13
1st and 10 at BAL 20	R.Rice left tackle to BLT 24 for 4 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 24	R.Rice right tackle to BLT 25 for 1 yard (K.Misi).	 	 
3rd and 5 at BAL 25	(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco left tackle to BLT 39 for 14 yards (P.Wheeler).	 	 
1st and 10 at BAL 39	R.Rice up the middle to BLT 43 for 4 yards (D.Shelby).	 	 
2nd and 6 at BAL 43	(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to D.Thompson. MIA-N.Carroll was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. PENALTY on MIA-N.Carroll, Defensive Pass Interference, 38 yards, enforced at BLT 43 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short middle to T.Smith (B.Grimes).	 	 
2nd and 10 at MIA 19	(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith. PENALTY on MIA-B.Grimes, Defensive Pass Interference, 17 yards, enforced at MIA 19 - No Play.	 	 
1st and 2 at MIA 2	R.Rice up the middle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.	12	13
	J.Tucker extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Cox, Holder-S.Koch.	13	13
 	J.Tucker kicks 65 yards from BLT 35 to MIA 0. M.Thigpen to MIA 18 for 18 yards (M.Huff).

Doesn't look like a defense keeping us in the game to me. This was when the Dolphins were ahead by a touchdown btw.

That drive was the first of the 3rd qtr, it tied the game at 13.

Trailing 23-16 midway through the 4th qtr your defense SCORED a TD to TIE the game or Miami never would have had a chance at the end of the game.

 

[truedolfan57]

Bingo. It just demonstrates that even an average QB could have lead last years team to a ton of wins. Hell, if we win just 3 of those games where the defense gave us a great opportunity to win, that makes 11 wins.

So you don't believe Tannehill is even an average qb, at this point?

 

[SSnowman]

The defense scored a TD in that game to put us up in the first place.

What? It was 2 field goals and a touchdown to Clay that put us up in the first place.